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Hi all,
I've decided to go running during my winter training to lose weight to better my climbing. Over the past week I've been running 3 times at 6am as I have heard this burns the most fat.
How much truth does hold? I can understand the thinking behind it but does anyone know if it really helps or if running on an empty stomach can be bad for you?
I've decided to go running during my winter training to lose weight to better my climbing. Over the past week I've been running 3 times at 6am as I have heard this burns the most fat.
How much truth does hold? I can understand the thinking behind it but does anyone know if it really helps or if running on an empty stomach can be bad for you?
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
From what I have read it's supposed to help with burning fat, the theory being that the carbohydrate reserves are already running on empty. This is sometimes used in marathon training to improve carbohydrate storage capacity. Negative effects include that it might weaken the imune system and that's not much fun. I prefer to have breakfast even before 6am runs.
From what I have read it's supposed to help with burning fat, the theory being that the carbohydrate reserves are already running on empty. This is sometimes used in marathon training to improve carbohydrate storage capacity. Negative effects include that it might weaken the imune system and that's not much fun. I prefer to have breakfast even before 6am runs.
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
Not gonna be much help I'm afraid, but I've heard the same thing. I often run first thing in the morning, on a large green tea and maybe banana. Only runu 8-9 milessually though and at a gentle pace. If it was any longer or faster I think I'd need to eat something a bit more substantial.
As and aside I think intervals are btter at fat burning. To be honest though research is showing diet is more important than exercise in weight loss (although of course I can help). So for me exercise for fitness increase, diet for weight loss. And of course, both for health!
Not gonna be much help I'm afraid, but I've heard the same thing. I often run first thing in the morning, on a large green tea and maybe banana. Only runu 8-9 milessually though and at a gentle pace. If it was any longer or faster I think I'd need to eat something a bit more substantial.
As and aside I think intervals are btter at fat burning. To be honest though research is showing diet is more important than exercise in weight loss (although of course I can help). So for me exercise for fitness increase, diet for weight loss. And of course, both for health!
In reply to Double Knee Bar: If you want to burn fat, run at low intensity. It's not easy for your body to burn fat, so it only does it at low speeds (this is why it's hard to run once you've hit the "wall" ie run out of glycogen). Walking is as good as slow running really for this. You shouldn't really run on empty - it will be harder work for you to less benefit for your health. It will also significantly alter your metabolism increasing the propensity of your body to store food as fat. This is thought to be a starvation reflex, as you're running on empty your body "assumes" that you're not getting enough food and slows your metabolism. This is the reason why dieters are told not to skip breakfast as their metabolism is slowed and the food they eat later will add more to their body fat than it would have done even with breakfast added in. Slowing your metabolism doesn't feel great either - you'll be lethargic and sluggish, and if you do it too much you'll find you get cold very easily.
In reply to Double Knee Bar: Break-fast...so if you run pre breakfast you've often fasted for a good 10-12 hrs, so you have to burn fat.
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
For morning runs I have always had breakfast first then waited a couple of hours before running, until a few months back when a friend suggested I try running before brekky.
I am now a convert, not for any noticeable fat burning difference (although there may be some, I haven't been measuring). Although counterintuative I was surprised to find it easier, with a feeling of more energy and less likelihood of a stitch.
I will often have a cup of tea or coffee first, especially if I have a wait before going out.
Recommend doing some squats and stretching before a morning run too.
For morning runs I have always had breakfast first then waited a couple of hours before running, until a few months back when a friend suggested I try running before brekky.
I am now a convert, not for any noticeable fat burning difference (although there may be some, I haven't been measuring). Although counterintuative I was surprised to find it easier, with a feeling of more energy and less likelihood of a stitch.
I will often have a cup of tea or coffee first, especially if I have a wait before going out.
Recommend doing some squats and stretching before a morning run too.
In reply to highlandmist:
I'll go with that, I've always found it easier to run on an empty stomach and also foud that running first thing sets me up for the day.
I'll go with that, I've always found it easier to run on an empty stomach and also foud that running first thing sets me up for the day.
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
Load of rubbish, like 99% of diet/exercise advice. If you enjoy running at 6am then go for it. The only exercise i can bring myself to do at 6am is surfing.
Load of rubbish, like 99% of diet/exercise advice. If you enjoy running at 6am then go for it. The only exercise i can bring myself to do at 6am is surfing.
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
i personally dont think it really matters, so long as your diet is already dialled in.
i usually run before breakfast - which can be at midday. you will know if its good or bad for you by your reaction.
the fat metabolizing stage of exercise is reached after a certain amount of carbohydate has been metabolized. you need to be out there at an aerobic level for about 35mins before you start to access fat stores - you can usually feel your body make the shift.
no doubt you will have enough carbohydrates available to burn thru this.
i agree that intervals wipe out excess fat stores much better. but its all on top of a tuned diet.
low GI foods will make sure you have the carbs there anytime unless you are really depleted.
there is also the mark twight idea that a higher quality fat diet trains the body to access it more efficiently because thats what its used to. knowing the twight philosophy as i do, this may well mean years of specific training to turn into reality.
mind you, running early in the am is just a nice thing to do.
i personally dont think it really matters, so long as your diet is already dialled in.
i usually run before breakfast - which can be at midday. you will know if its good or bad for you by your reaction.
the fat metabolizing stage of exercise is reached after a certain amount of carbohydate has been metabolized. you need to be out there at an aerobic level for about 35mins before you start to access fat stores - you can usually feel your body make the shift.
no doubt you will have enough carbohydrates available to burn thru this.
i agree that intervals wipe out excess fat stores much better. but its all on top of a tuned diet.
low GI foods will make sure you have the carbs there anytime unless you are really depleted.
there is also the mark twight idea that a higher quality fat diet trains the body to access it more efficiently because thats what its used to. knowing the twight philosophy as i do, this may well mean years of specific training to turn into reality.
mind you, running early in the am is just a nice thing to do.
In reply to ice.solo:
That's interesting, I too am a 6am'er, it just fits in best there and isn't hanging on my to do list for the rest of the day.
You mention the body shift to fat stores being noticeable, can you explain in what way? I'd be interested to know. I've recently returned to running and am comfortable with 4miles three times a week in conjunction with ergo and rowing training. Shifting the extra fat isn't a priority for me but would be a nice accompaniement to the training.
Cx
> (In reply to Double Knee Bar)
>
> the fat metabolizing stage of exercise is reached after a certain amount of carbohydate has been metabolized. you need to be out there at an aerobic level for about 35mins before you start to access fat stores - you can usually feel your body make the shift.
> no doubt you will have enough carbohydrates available to burn thru this.
>
> the fat metabolizing stage of exercise is reached after a certain amount of carbohydate has been metabolized. you need to be out there at an aerobic level for about 35mins before you start to access fat stores - you can usually feel your body make the shift.
> no doubt you will have enough carbohydrates available to burn thru this.
>
> mind you, running early in the am is just a nice thing to do.
That's interesting, I too am a 6am'er, it just fits in best there and isn't hanging on my to do list for the rest of the day.
You mention the body shift to fat stores being noticeable, can you explain in what way? I'd be interested to know. I've recently returned to running and am comfortable with 4miles three times a week in conjunction with ergo and rowing training. Shifting the extra fat isn't a priority for me but would be a nice accompaniement to the training.
Cx
In reply to Clears:
ok, im no expert, and others will say otherwise but...
for me the shift of primary fuel sources is the fairly sudden sensation that i can go forever. before that i can feel my system using energy stores, then at about the same time every run things shift into gear.
i have heard lots of others mention it, and apparently its backed by substanntial evidence.
its much easier to notice on flat runs where your system isnt shifting a lot like it does on mountain runs or during multisport events. probably affected by temperature as well.
ok, im no expert, and others will say otherwise but...
for me the shift of primary fuel sources is the fairly sudden sensation that i can go forever. before that i can feel my system using energy stores, then at about the same time every run things shift into gear.
i have heard lots of others mention it, and apparently its backed by substanntial evidence.
its much easier to notice on flat runs where your system isnt shifting a lot like it does on mountain runs or during multisport events. probably affected by temperature as well.
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
If you're carrying extra weight then shifting weight is easy and it won't matter a jot when you run.
If you're carrying extra weight then shifting weight is easy and it won't matter a jot when you run.
In reply to ice.solo: That makes sense! I'd always put it down to whatever was playing on my ipod giving me a boost
I'll pay more attention next time I'm out and try and tune into my body more although currently I'm still at the battling with my body stage
Cx
I'll pay more attention next time I'm out and try and tune into my body more although currently I'm still at the battling with my body stage
Cx
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
a couple of americans i ve climbed with swear by no brekfast and a strong coffee or two first thing in morning follwed by a run to shift weight. i saw one guy go from chubby to skinny in month doing this every morning. he pottered around on 6s for that month and then jumped on to quick red points of several 7bs. his goals for his 2 month holiday were 1) loose weight 2) red point 7c . he did both. i m intrested to hear if the coffee then run thing is common ? i ve no idea about the science, just that i ve seen it work in a climbing context.
a couple of americans i ve climbed with swear by no brekfast and a strong coffee or two first thing in morning follwed by a run to shift weight. i saw one guy go from chubby to skinny in month doing this every morning. he pottered around on 6s for that month and then jumped on to quick red points of several 7bs. his goals for his 2 month holiday were 1) loose weight 2) red point 7c . he did both. i m intrested to hear if the coffee then run thing is common ? i ve no idea about the science, just that i ve seen it work in a climbing context.
In reply to mike123:
As a wheezing asthmatic, the only reason that would occur to me to drink strong coffee before exercise would be that caffeine I believe relaxes smooth airway muscle, so may improve lung capacity. Don't know if that would be significant in a non-asthmatic, though.
As a wheezing asthmatic, the only reason that would occur to me to drink strong coffee before exercise would be that caffeine I believe relaxes smooth airway muscle, so may improve lung capacity. Don't know if that would be significant in a non-asthmatic, though.
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
Running in the morning is most beneficial if you're late for work
Seriously, I prefer to race in the morning, but still need a decent breakfast for the energy. I can train in the evenings, as long as it's before my evening meal.
As the other chap said, I'll only get up at 6 to go surfing - in fact, I remember one morning where I paddled out and couldn't do anything for some time, until I felt breakfast kick in and my energy levels come up.
For me, at least, exercising in the morning is fine, but I need breakfast first.
Running in the morning is most beneficial if you're late for work
Seriously, I prefer to race in the morning, but still need a decent breakfast for the energy. I can train in the evenings, as long as it's before my evening meal.
As the other chap said, I'll only get up at 6 to go surfing - in fact, I remember one morning where I paddled out and couldn't do anything for some time, until I felt breakfast kick in and my energy levels come up.
For me, at least, exercising in the morning is fine, but I need breakfast first.
In reply to MHutch:
Wasn't there research a few years back suggesting that caffeine encouraged the body to burn fat more efficiently during exercise?
Wasn't there research a few years back suggesting that caffeine encouraged the body to burn fat more efficiently during exercise?
In reply to DaveBear: Yes, caffeine rules..
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
I got the impression that Hörst in "Training for Climbing" suggests an early morning set of intervals (I think 12 minutes jog/sprint - might need a warm up) while being shorter and quicker is actually better for someone in your situation than a longer 1/2 hour jog:- the reason being that the speeding-up of your metabolism is sustained through the day and therefore you burn more fat overall.
It's a good book, it would be worth checking it for the finer details.
Hope this helps.
Luke
I got the impression that Hörst in "Training for Climbing" suggests an early morning set of intervals (I think 12 minutes jog/sprint - might need a warm up) while being shorter and quicker is actually better for someone in your situation than a longer 1/2 hour jog:- the reason being that the speeding-up of your metabolism is sustained through the day and therefore you burn more fat overall.
It's a good book, it would be worth checking it for the finer details.
Hope this helps.
Luke
In reply to DaveBear:
Hadn't seen that. Don't know if the mechanism would be a different one.
> (In reply to MHutch)
> Wasn't there research a few years back suggesting that caffeine encouraged the body to burn fat more efficiently during exercise?
> Wasn't there research a few years back suggesting that caffeine encouraged the body to burn fat more efficiently during exercise?
Hadn't seen that. Don't know if the mechanism would be a different one.
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
I'll happily run for an hour/hour and a half without breakfast. Never felt it stresses my immune system. I'll often sneak a quick espresso in first. If it's slow run, I can eat a current teacake or a slice of toast not too long before running without upsetting my stomach. With longer events you need to be able to process a bit of food anyway.
Never been convinced by the 'fat burning zone', it's an evil conspiracy put around by gyms and personal trainers who don't want to scare their clients - it's more to do with total calories burnt and raising the metabolic rate for a period afterwards.
I'll happily run for an hour/hour and a half without breakfast. Never felt it stresses my immune system. I'll often sneak a quick espresso in first. If it's slow run, I can eat a current teacake or a slice of toast not too long before running without upsetting my stomach. With longer events you need to be able to process a bit of food anyway.
Never been convinced by the 'fat burning zone', it's an evil conspiracy put around by gyms and personal trainers who don't want to scare their clients - it's more to do with total calories burnt and raising the metabolic rate for a period afterwards.
> (In reply to Double Knee Bar) Break-fast...so if you run pre breakfast you've often fasted for a good 10-12 hrs, so you have to burn fat.
this is frankly not true. You do not deplete the glycogen stores in the muscles used to run when you are asleep. I think most of the 'evidence' about timing of calorie burning, or indeed absorption are rather simplistic, and miss the main point that all these things are far more likely to be influenced mainly by the metabolism, diet and activity level of the individual.
If you like running first thing, do it. If you hate it and do it anyway, you are likely to lose weight not because you are running early morning, but because you clearly possess a level of motivation and self control that is likely to preclude you from rewarding yourself with masses of cakes and beer every day.
In reply to Toby Dunn:
I'm not sure but I think your last point is wrong anyway.
I hate morning runs, yet I do know they help to drop weight, and I have NO control regards food and beer. I run so I can eat.
This weekend is a 17 mile fell race Saturday, and a 3 hr mountain marathon Sunday, a weekend of eating... bargain.
I'm convinced there must be a metabolic reason behind losing weight in the morning. Ok you've got what's in your body, but if you're out for 1 hr plus that'd be eaten into in that time.
It could also be conected to kick starting your metabolism. I just feel like I'm running on empty when I run pre breakfast.
>
> [...]
>
> this is frankly not true. You do not deplete the glycogen stores in the muscles used to run when you are asleep. I think most of the 'evidence' about timing of calorie burning, or indeed absorption are rather simplistic, and miss the main point that all these things are far more likely to be influenced mainly by the metabolism, diet and activity level of the individual.
> If you like running first thing, do it. If you hate it and do it anyway, you are likely to lose weight not because you are running early morning, but because you clearly possess a level of motivation and self control that is likely to preclude you from rewarding yourself with masses of cakes and beer every day.
> [...]
>
> this is frankly not true. You do not deplete the glycogen stores in the muscles used to run when you are asleep. I think most of the 'evidence' about timing of calorie burning, or indeed absorption are rather simplistic, and miss the main point that all these things are far more likely to be influenced mainly by the metabolism, diet and activity level of the individual.
> If you like running first thing, do it. If you hate it and do it anyway, you are likely to lose weight not because you are running early morning, but because you clearly possess a level of motivation and self control that is likely to preclude you from rewarding yourself with masses of cakes and beer every day.
I'm not sure but I think your last point is wrong anyway.
I hate morning runs, yet I do know they help to drop weight, and I have NO control regards food and beer. I run so I can eat.
This weekend is a 17 mile fell race Saturday, and a 3 hr mountain marathon Sunday, a weekend of eating... bargain.
I'm convinced there must be a metabolic reason behind losing weight in the morning. Ok you've got what's in your body, but if you're out for 1 hr plus that'd be eaten into in that time.
It could also be conected to kick starting your metabolism. I just feel like I'm running on empty when I run pre breakfast.
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
Look, ultimately, if you want to lose weight, never mind running, reduce your food intake by 5-10%. No more or you'll end up crash-yo-yo dieting.
And go and buy a book on sports nutrition, read it and discover how these things actually work rather than listening to a bunch of crackpot hearsay (no offence to folk).
Look, ultimately, if you want to lose weight, never mind running, reduce your food intake by 5-10%. No more or you'll end up crash-yo-yo dieting.
And go and buy a book on sports nutrition, read it and discover how these things actually work rather than listening to a bunch of crackpot hearsay (no offence to folk).
In reply to arctic_hobo:
None taken. "If you want to burn fat, run at low intensity".
> And go and buy a book on sports nutrition, read it and discover how these things actually work rather than listening to a bunch of crackpot hearsay (no offence to folk).
None taken. "If you want to burn fat, run at low intensity".
In reply to Turdus torquatus: Or just run...you don't see fat fast marathon runners. Very few of them will measure what goes in their stomachs or ever run slowly for fat burning.
In reply to IainRUK:
The research I read backed this up, but they could only demonstrate the effect when using caffeine supplements, not with coffee.
> (In reply to DaveBear) Yes, caffeine rules..
The research I read backed this up, but they could only demonstrate the effect when using caffeine supplements, not with coffee.
In reply to Turdus torquatus:
My understanding is the other chemicals that are in coffee take away the beneficial effects of the caffeine.
The Australian Rugby Team used to take caffeine pills befors going to the field - not quite for this reason (think it made them more aggressive or alert - cannot remember) but a cup of coffee was thought not to have the same effect.
Having said that, I run better if I've had a cup of strong ground coffee before going in the morning than going an a completely empty stomach.
My understanding is the other chemicals that are in coffee take away the beneficial effects of the caffeine.
The Australian Rugby Team used to take caffeine pills befors going to the field - not quite for this reason (think it made them more aggressive or alert - cannot remember) but a cup of coffee was thought not to have the same effect.
Having said that, I run better if I've had a cup of strong ground coffee before going in the morning than going an a completely empty stomach.
In reply to arctic_hobo:
With all due respect, a lot of books are written by crackpots and are just heresay!
For every arguement of why there is a fat burning zone, there is another arguement for why there isn't. All scientific proof seems to be negated by other scientific proof that it's not true, so under these circumstances, it is very difficult to make an informed decision.
> And go and buy a book on sports nutrition, read it and discover how these things actually work rather than listening to a bunch of crackpot hearsay (no offence to folk).
With all due respect, a lot of books are written by crackpots and are just heresay!
For every arguement of why there is a fat burning zone, there is another arguement for why there isn't. All scientific proof seems to be negated by other scientific proof that it's not true, so under these circumstances, it is very difficult to make an informed decision.
In reply to staceyjg:
So read this one (it's not!)...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Racing-Weight-Matt-Fitzgerald/dp/1934030511
> With all due respect, a lot of books are written by crackpots and are just heresay!
So read this one (it's not!)...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Racing-Weight-Matt-Fitzgerald/dp/1934030511
In reply to petestack: No..some friends swear by that, I'm reluctant to go near it...it could ruin my life..
Meant to be very good. just leads to guilty eating..
'Lore of running' is one of the best books I reckon.
Meant to be very good. just leads to guilty eating..
'Lore of running' is one of the best books I reckon.
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
I'm no exercise physiologist, but the following is what I've gleaned from several up-to-date writers and articles:
You shouldn't be low on energy in the mornings so long as your training and diet is well structured. Your muscle and liver glycogen levels should stay topped up overnight. Even if you feel hungry, you should have glycogen to run with. If you haven't eaten properly since your last run, or if you've been eating rubbish, then you might be quite depleted.
One reason why you might burn more fat by running at an aerobic pace in the morning (before breakfast) is that your blood sugar and insulin levels will be stable and well controlled, due to not having taken on new calories for several hours. This will allow your body to quickly access a fairly optimal balance of glycogen and fat (optimal given your current conditioning etc).
Eating during the day creates peaks and troughs in these levels. If you run while you have high insulin levels following a calorie intake, you will tend go after your muscle glycogen very quickly, and mobilise fat quite poorly. This will force you to take on more sugar as you run to avoid bonking, and you won't eat into your existing fat stores as much. You need about a 2-3 hour gap to allow insulin stabilisation.
If you really feel like you need extra energy in the morning, there are two good approaches:
- Wake up three hours early and swig down a carb drink, then get some more kip before your run (I do this before long weekend training runs).
- Eat/drink something sugary immediately before you run. Because your body will be forced into 'exercise mode' straight aferward, you won't get the same insulin peak, but will simly make use of the raised blood sugar.
In practical terms, what this means is that a balanced meal including some carbohydrate the night before a run should be enough unless you're going to run for more than an hour or two (or three, depending on your fitness, training, diet, recovery etc).
Lots of athletes complete marathons and ironman events with no breakfast, simply relying on great glycogen uptake from good training and diet, followed by well dialled nutrition during the event.
To be honest, if you want to lose weight just stay active and be a little disciplined about diet. I similarly like to eat, but have found that just backing off the extra sarnie or pudding is enough to drop the weight.
Mark
I'm no exercise physiologist, but the following is what I've gleaned from several up-to-date writers and articles:
You shouldn't be low on energy in the mornings so long as your training and diet is well structured. Your muscle and liver glycogen levels should stay topped up overnight. Even if you feel hungry, you should have glycogen to run with. If you haven't eaten properly since your last run, or if you've been eating rubbish, then you might be quite depleted.
One reason why you might burn more fat by running at an aerobic pace in the morning (before breakfast) is that your blood sugar and insulin levels will be stable and well controlled, due to not having taken on new calories for several hours. This will allow your body to quickly access a fairly optimal balance of glycogen and fat (optimal given your current conditioning etc).
Eating during the day creates peaks and troughs in these levels. If you run while you have high insulin levels following a calorie intake, you will tend go after your muscle glycogen very quickly, and mobilise fat quite poorly. This will force you to take on more sugar as you run to avoid bonking, and you won't eat into your existing fat stores as much. You need about a 2-3 hour gap to allow insulin stabilisation.
If you really feel like you need extra energy in the morning, there are two good approaches:
- Wake up three hours early and swig down a carb drink, then get some more kip before your run (I do this before long weekend training runs).
- Eat/drink something sugary immediately before you run. Because your body will be forced into 'exercise mode' straight aferward, you won't get the same insulin peak, but will simly make use of the raised blood sugar.
In practical terms, what this means is that a balanced meal including some carbohydrate the night before a run should be enough unless you're going to run for more than an hour or two (or three, depending on your fitness, training, diet, recovery etc).
Lots of athletes complete marathons and ironman events with no breakfast, simply relying on great glycogen uptake from good training and diet, followed by well dialled nutrition during the event.
To be honest, if you want to lose weight just stay active and be a little disciplined about diet. I similarly like to eat, but have found that just backing off the extra sarnie or pudding is enough to drop the weight.
Mark
In reply to amanonaspeedingbike:
Interesting about that. I was talking to a quick marathon runner, 2:20, and he said that food before the race was always crucial, but that was before gels and nutrition took off, so he now thinks that carb loading isn't so crucial because we now have much more options available to get food into ou systems before the run.
Personally I'd never run a marathon off no food. My marathon pb was set off a muffin and a danish pastry from a 7/11 at 6 am before a 9am start.
>
>
> Lots of athletes complete marathons and ironman events with no breakfast, simply relying on great glycogen uptake from good training and diet, followed by well dialled nutrition during the event.
>
>
>
> Lots of athletes complete marathons and ironman events with no breakfast, simply relying on great glycogen uptake from good training and diet, followed by well dialled nutrition during the event.
>
>
Interesting about that. I was talking to a quick marathon runner, 2:20, and he said that food before the race was always crucial, but that was before gels and nutrition took off, so he now thinks that carb loading isn't so crucial because we now have much more options available to get food into ou systems before the run.
Personally I'd never run a marathon off no food. My marathon pb was set off a muffin and a danish pastry from a 7/11 at 6 am before a 9am start.
In reply to IainRUK:
Reviewed it (briefly) on my blog back in July (about three weeks before Dave MacLeod started stocking it on his site although I doubt I'm responsible for that!)...
http://www.petestack.com/blog/running/weight-and-racing-weight.html
You should give it a try... doesn't have to ruin your life if you're capable of ignoring good advice (on which note I'm currently in 'fat pig' mode, being heavier than the top weight of my blog-page graph) but is so packed with good, clear thinking that it's hard to see anyone not benefiting from even partial adoption of his ideas.
Yep, got that one too (and have even read *all* of it).
> (In reply to petestack) No..some friends swear by that, I'm reluctant to go near it...it could ruin my life..
>
> Meant to be very good. just leads to guilty eating..
>
> Meant to be very good. just leads to guilty eating..
Reviewed it (briefly) on my blog back in July (about three weeks before Dave MacLeod started stocking it on his site although I doubt I'm responsible for that!)...
http://www.petestack.com/blog/running/weight-and-racing-weight.html
You should give it a try... doesn't have to ruin your life if you're capable of ignoring good advice (on which note I'm currently in 'fat pig' mode, being heavier than the top weight of my blog-page graph) but is so packed with good, clear thinking that it's hard to see anyone not benefiting from even partial adoption of his ideas.
> 'Lore of running' is one of the best books I reckon.
Yep, got that one too (and have even read *all* of it).
In reply to IainRUK:
That is interesting; I'm sure that modern gels etc make it much easier to run with a settled, empty stomach and to carry your 'margin' in a pocket. I don't have the experience to know really, just basing my comments on talking to others.
I don't have any sort of running background other than a few MMs and similar, but ran my first bog-standard marathon this weekend on the basis of a flask of Rego at 6am for a 9am gun and energy/nutrition seemed to work pretty well. I imagine a Danish would have done the job too, but it would have meant getting out of bed!
Mark
That is interesting; I'm sure that modern gels etc make it much easier to run with a settled, empty stomach and to carry your 'margin' in a pocket. I don't have the experience to know really, just basing my comments on talking to others.
I don't have any sort of running background other than a few MMs and similar, but ran my first bog-standard marathon this weekend on the basis of a flask of Rego at 6am for a 9am gun and energy/nutrition seemed to work pretty well. I imagine a Danish would have done the job too, but it would have meant getting out of bed!
Mark
In reply to ice.solo:
Very interesting - I've often found this happening after about half an hour. I'd no idea or even thought about what was happening physically, I just thought it was about getting "properly warmed up".
What I don't understand is why burning fat should feel easier than burning carbs, but I suppose its fat kicking in to complement the carbs you're burning at the start of a run..?
To the OP: as for morning runs before breakfast, you must be mad.
> the fat metabolizing stage of exercise is reached after a certain amount of carbohydate has been metabolized. you need to be out there at an aerobic level for about 35mins before you start to access fat stores - you can usually feel your body make the shift.
> for me the shift of primary fuel sources is the fairly sudden sensation that i can go forever. before that i can feel my system using energy stores, then at about the same time every run things shift into gear.
Very interesting - I've often found this happening after about half an hour. I'd no idea or even thought about what was happening physically, I just thought it was about getting "properly warmed up".
What I don't understand is why burning fat should feel easier than burning carbs, but I suppose its fat kicking in to complement the carbs you're burning at the start of a run..?
To the OP: as for morning runs before breakfast, you must be mad.
Jesus wept.
Doesn't anyone on here realise that the body is very complicated and fat/carbohydrate metabolism are very much linked. For example, after eating sugar, triglycerides in the blood (produced for fat storage) jump more than after eating fat.
Within the body there is not a carbohydrate "battery" that when depleted is replaced by a fat "battery".
In reply to petestack:
PS Talking of complicated, wasn't it one 'wilding' who told us not so very long ago that 'Running shoes are rubbish' and kept insisting it was that simple no matter what anyone else said?
PS Talking of complicated, wasn't it one 'wilding' who told us not so very long ago that 'Running shoes are rubbish' and kept insisting it was that simple no matter what anyone else said?
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
Interval training all the way. I use my own modified version of H I T except in the pool (frontcrawl smash for 25m followed by 25m breaststroke, then 50m at front crawl full pace then 25 more at a gentle breastroke and repeat)
Interval training all the way. I use my own modified version of H I T except in the pool (frontcrawl smash for 25m followed by 25m breaststroke, then 50m at front crawl full pace then 25 more at a gentle breastroke and repeat)
In reply to wilding:
I bow to your great knowledge
> Jesus wept.
> Doesn't anyone on here realise that the body is very complicated
> Doesn't anyone on here realise that the body is very complicated
I bow to your great knowledge
In reply to Turdus torquatus: Aye well I apply it to my own advice and all. But I will add that this is a fundamental principle backed up by god knows how much research. Fine if you disagree. Check a few textbooks mind
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
I may have misunderstood this post. Is it about getting up at 6am to go running???
I may have misunderstood this post. Is it about getting up at 6am to go running???
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
OK then:
thinking about this thread i did an experiment of one, once and unscientifically, tho i do use the lilly approach of using the body as a lab.
heres what i found.
today i ran my once-in-a-10-day-cycle 45km. trail but flat, no regard for time.
usually i eat a soy bar an hour before, but today consumed no solid food beforehand, only drinking 3 cups of coffee.
started at 12.08 midday.
the day before i consumed just a single meal of buckweet noodles topped with chicken and sesame seeds with a good sized salad drizzled with olive oil. only other food during the day was 2 protein bars and 4 cups of coffee.
2 hrs after the noodle/salad thing i ate half a bowl of granola with soy milk.
today felt same as any other - whatever it is shifted at 35mins into 'long' gear and i held it for 3hrs32mins. an occasional knee twinge had me walk 3 or 4 times for about 2 mins a pop.
during the run i drank 1500mls of water (it was hot and dusty today) and downed a gel, 2 soy bars, 1 electrolyte tablet and an amino gel - pretty normal, if anything a bit less.
point of all this:
1) little is proved by doing it once, but more than by speculation
2) energy levels were very stable
3) never came close to hitting a wall, just ate because its habit tho...
4) ...eating did bring a significant degree of recharge
so i dont know if this means anything to anyone else, but as a one off within normal parameters eating nothing before even tho starting late had no ill effects.
anyone else experiment?
OK then:
thinking about this thread i did an experiment of one, once and unscientifically, tho i do use the lilly approach of using the body as a lab.
heres what i found.
today i ran my once-in-a-10-day-cycle 45km. trail but flat, no regard for time.
usually i eat a soy bar an hour before, but today consumed no solid food beforehand, only drinking 3 cups of coffee.
started at 12.08 midday.
the day before i consumed just a single meal of buckweet noodles topped with chicken and sesame seeds with a good sized salad drizzled with olive oil. only other food during the day was 2 protein bars and 4 cups of coffee.
2 hrs after the noodle/salad thing i ate half a bowl of granola with soy milk.
today felt same as any other - whatever it is shifted at 35mins into 'long' gear and i held it for 3hrs32mins. an occasional knee twinge had me walk 3 or 4 times for about 2 mins a pop.
during the run i drank 1500mls of water (it was hot and dusty today) and downed a gel, 2 soy bars, 1 electrolyte tablet and an amino gel - pretty normal, if anything a bit less.
point of all this:
1) little is proved by doing it once, but more than by speculation
2) energy levels were very stable
3) never came close to hitting a wall, just ate because its habit tho...
4) ...eating did bring a significant degree of recharge
so i dont know if this means anything to anyone else, but as a one off within normal parameters eating nothing before even tho starting late had no ill effects.
anyone else experiment?
In reply to amanonaspeedingbike:
If I go running before breakfast (only generally do that once a week or when on holiday) I tend to desperately need a dump... which wouldn't be great when on a Marathon with several hundred or a thousand other people around!
I guess a lot of athletes get to know what suits them. As regards answering the question by the OP whether running in the morning is more beneficial, I have no idea, but the only time I have been on a weight loss diet it was pretty successful by getting up early in the morning and going for a walk/run and then going again in the evening after work - which might be the increased mileage or that I got up in the morning - I tend to need a smaller breakfast after exercising as that reduces my apetite - or at least puts it on hold for another couple of hours.
> (In reply to Double Knee Bar)
>
>
> Lots of athletes complete marathons and ironman events with no breakfast,
>
>
> Lots of athletes complete marathons and ironman events with no breakfast,
If I go running before breakfast (only generally do that once a week or when on holiday) I tend to desperately need a dump... which wouldn't be great when on a Marathon with several hundred or a thousand other people around!
I guess a lot of athletes get to know what suits them. As regards answering the question by the OP whether running in the morning is more beneficial, I have no idea, but the only time I have been on a weight loss diet it was pretty successful by getting up early in the morning and going for a walk/run and then going again in the evening after work - which might be the increased mileage or that I got up in the morning - I tend to need a smaller breakfast after exercising as that reduces my apetite - or at least puts it on hold for another couple of hours.
In reply to Thickhead:
That is why I have a cup of coffee before running.
>which wouldn't be great when on a Marathon with several hundred or a thousand other people around!
Don't be a sitter, be a stand up shitter.
Regards
D
> If I go running before breakfast (only generally do that once a week or when on holiday) I tend to desperately need a dump
That is why I have a cup of coffee before running.
>which wouldn't be great when on a Marathon with several hundred or a thousand other people around!
Don't be a sitter, be a stand up shitter.
Regards
D
In reply to Dauphin:
Not sure. Will have a go but I can't see the advantages of standing up. Do you use some sort of bomb-sight or funnel-pan?
Not sure. Will have a go but I can't see the advantages of standing up. Do you use some sort of bomb-sight or funnel-pan?
In reply to Dauphin:
Does that still count as running on an empty stomach?
Where to leave the remains?!
> (In reply to Thickhead)
>
>
> [...]
>
> That is why I have a cup of coffee before running.
>>
>
> [...]
>
> That is why I have a cup of coffee before running.
Does that still count as running on an empty stomach?
>
> Don't be a sitter, be a stand up shitter.
>
> Don't be a sitter, be a stand up shitter.
>
Where to leave the remains?!
In reply to Double Knee Bar: Thanks for everyone's advice.
I've found after two weeks that enjoying the morning runs before food much more enjoyable and so will settle in to the morning exercise routine. I've found that running on an empty stomach leaves you less susceptible to stitch and heartburn, and there's no grub sloshing about in your stomach.
Whether running in the mornings is beneficial or not, it's what I'm sticking to as I'm enjoying it.
I've found after two weeks that enjoying the morning runs before food much more enjoyable and so will settle in to the morning exercise routine. I've found that running on an empty stomach leaves you less susceptible to stitch and heartburn, and there's no grub sloshing about in your stomach.
Whether running in the mornings is beneficial or not, it's what I'm sticking to as I'm enjoying it.
In reply to amanonaspeedingbike:
You're right you don't burn a greater level of fat in the morning because you have low glycogen levels. Some studies have shown that your muscle glycogen is fairly high in the morning thanks to gluconeogenesis in the liver occurring overnight. It may be that the reason you burn more fat during a fasted state is because of low insulin levels and high glucagon levels triggering hormone sensitive lipase (enzyme) to begin breaking down triglycerides (fat molecules) t to be utilized fas energy.
You're right you don't burn a greater level of fat in the morning because you have low glycogen levels. Some studies have shown that your muscle glycogen is fairly high in the morning thanks to gluconeogenesis in the liver occurring overnight. It may be that the reason you burn more fat during a fasted state is because of low insulin levels and high glucagon levels triggering hormone sensitive lipase (enzyme) to begin breaking down triglycerides (fat molecules) t to be utilized fas energy.
In reply to steveri:
The fat burning zone is a load of old tosh. whilst you may be using fat as the substrate during exercise, the total energy expenditure is likely not as great as some shorter duration high intensity intervals. After all it is absolute energy expenditure that is the key to weight loss.
The fat burning zone is a load of old tosh. whilst you may be using fat as the substrate during exercise, the total energy expenditure is likely not as great as some shorter duration high intensity intervals. After all it is absolute energy expenditure that is the key to weight loss.
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