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Heading out to Chamonix for a fortnight next week, have been a few times before but won't be climbing anything very difficult on this trip so I've been looking into some of the lower grade routes I've not done yet. I've got a few objectives in mind so I'm not hell bent on Mont Blanc although if time/conditions/fitness allow I quite fancy getting it done. That was, until I saw this video...
youtube.com/watch?v=B6HXQxEX910&
How late in the day is too late to be crossing the Grand Couloir? I've always fancied going via MB du Tacul/Mont Maudit then descending the Gouter Route, leaving from the Midi station around Midnight. This could mean crossing the Grand Couloir Mid-morning. With it being a very warm season so far is this going to be too late? Would we be as well to wait at the Gouter Hut and cross it in the early hours?
Any advice/experiences much appreciated
Iain
youtube.com/watch?v=B6HXQxEX910&
How late in the day is too late to be crossing the Grand Couloir? I've always fancied going via MB du Tacul/Mont Maudit then descending the Gouter Route, leaving from the Midi station around Midnight. This could mean crossing the Grand Couloir Mid-morning. With it being a very warm season so far is this going to be too late? Would we be as well to wait at the Gouter Hut and cross it in the early hours?
Any advice/experiences much appreciated
Iain
In reply to IainMunro:
I've always fancied going via MB du Tacul/Mont Maudit then descending the Gouter Route, leaving from the Midi station around Midnight. This could mean crossing the Grand Couloir Mid-morning.
I did this traverse with a mate a few years ago - we had a later start. Got to the Grand Couloir around midday. There was a little stonefall, we waited still it was quiet then went quickly across individually.
I've always fancied going via MB du Tacul/Mont Maudit then descending the Gouter Route, leaving from the Midi station around Midnight. This could mean crossing the Grand Couloir Mid-morning.
I did this traverse with a mate a few years ago - we had a later start. Got to the Grand Couloir around midday. There was a little stonefall, we waited still it was quiet then went quickly across individually.
In reply to IainMunro:
I crossed it early with no problems, but again around midday, and got bombarded with stones. Absolutely shit me up! There are many that do though, with one watching whilst the other scampers, but it's an unnerving place IMO. The high wire was just that, too high to clip unless you had a really long sling, and I equally wouldn't have wnted to dangle out in space after being hit. If you've the time and can wait, it'd certainly be safer.
I crossed it early with no problems, but again around midday, and got bombarded with stones. Absolutely shit me up! There are many that do though, with one watching whilst the other scampers, but it's an unnerving place IMO. The high wire was just that, too high to clip unless you had a really long sling, and I equally wouldn't have wnted to dangle out in space after being hit. If you've the time and can wait, it'd certainly be safer.
In reply to IainMunro:
Yes, that's probably the best one. Here are a couple more:
youtube.com/watch?v=gROp65zZXsI&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBimrodyKT0&NR=1
Yes, that's probably the best one. Here are a couple more:
youtube.com/watch?v=gROp65zZXsI&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBimrodyKT0&NR=1
In reply to IainMunro:
Assuming you go up and down the Gouter (which plenty do) then you'd have to cross it mid morning anyway, descending. It's never 100% safe. You've got to use your own judgement to get a window and peg it across!
Assuming you go up and down the Gouter (which plenty do) then you'd have to cross it mid morning anyway, descending. It's never 100% safe. You've got to use your own judgement to get a window and peg it across!
In reply to lowersharpnose:
Did the 3Ms some years ago (Its the best route)on the decent and having safely crossed the Grand Couloir rocks pored down cascading around a lone climber. He was lucky and so were we,it was around 4pm and very warm. Hey thats why its called the "Bowling Ally". I am also gonna be in Chamonix soon flying out to Geneva on the 19Th wont be climbing though due to the newly broken foot .
> (In reply to IainMunro)
>
>
Did the 3Ms some years ago (Its the best route)on the decent and having safely crossed the Grand Couloir rocks pored down cascading around a lone climber. He was lucky and so were we,it was around 4pm and very warm. Hey thats why its called the "Bowling Ally". I am also gonna be in Chamonix soon flying out to Geneva on the 19Th wont be climbing though due to the newly broken foot .
In reply to IainMunro: You could consider descending via the Grands Mulets instead therby returning to the mid station of the Midi Cable Car and a more direct return to Chamonix.
In reply to pec:
My understanding is that the Grand Mulets is not often used certainly by some of the French guides due to the increased risks of avalanche and rock fall down from the midi .
> (In reply to IainMunro) You could consider descending via the Grands Mulets instead therby returning to the mid station of the Midi Cable Car and a more direct return to Chamonix.
My understanding is that the Grand Mulets is not often used certainly by some of the French guides due to the increased risks of avalanche and rock fall down from the midi .
In reply to IainMunro:
According to the local newspaper (Le Dauphine 5/2/11) there where 31 deaths from 2000 to 2011 on the part of the Gouter route between the Tete Rousse and the Gouter huts. However, nearly all of these were due to "fautes techniques". In other words, do not worry too much about the stonefall in the Grand Couloir, it is bad crampon skills that is going to kill you.
That said, I was camped at the Tete Rousse last summer and unless your helmet is specifically designed for pianos, fridges etc I would try to avoid the late afternoon.
According to the local newspaper (Le Dauphine 5/2/11) there where 31 deaths from 2000 to 2011 on the part of the Gouter route between the Tete Rousse and the Gouter huts. However, nearly all of these were due to "fautes techniques". In other words, do not worry too much about the stonefall in the Grand Couloir, it is bad crampon skills that is going to kill you.
That said, I was camped at the Tete Rousse last summer and unless your helmet is specifically designed for pianos, fridges etc I would try to avoid the late afternoon.
In reply to IainMunro:
http://www.chamonet.com/whats_new_article.php?id_whats_new=9899&id_back...
I suppose this answers my own question. Even 11am is perhaps a bit too late at the moment...
Iain
http://www.chamonet.com/whats_new_article.php?id_whats_new=9899&id_back...
I suppose this answers my own question. Even 11am is perhaps a bit too late at the moment...
Iain
In reply to IainMunro: Hi, i did the gouter route last weekend. On the way to the hut, we were there about 2pm and the rock fall was constant you had to move very fast, we saw one man get hit and helicoptered off. On the decent we were crossing back at 10.30am and this was just about OK the sun was only just on the bottom half and there wasnt much rockfall.
In reply to IainMunro: go up the left hand side and cross at the top.
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
People doing that are nothing but selfish idiots.
> go up the left hand side and cross at the top.
People doing that are nothing but selfish idiots.
In reply to IainMunro:
Possibly a silly question, but if going up and crossing it at the top puts you above the rockfall, why doesn't everyone do it? That way there would be no-one below to knock rocks on to.
(I've not done the route, so appreciate that may be a stupid question.)
Possibly a silly question, but if going up and crossing it at the top puts you above the rockfall, why doesn't everyone do it? That way there would be no-one below to knock rocks on to.
(I've not done the route, so appreciate that may be a stupid question.)
In reply to MariaDixon1:
It's not a silly question and it seems to be the answer. It's called the Arête Payot. However, at one time the upper part was equipped, to do just that. It promptly fell down.
It's not a silly question and it seems to be the answer. It's called the Arête Payot. However, at one time the upper part was equipped, to do just that. It promptly fell down.
In reply to IainMunro:
Hi Iain,
I was on Mont Blanc last week (Thursday / Friday). We crossed at 4.00pm on the way up (far from ideal, I know)and at 11.00am on the way down.
On the descent from the Gouter we were alongside the Couloir from 9.00am and there were bits and pieces falling down it continously during the 2 hour descent all be it infrequently (once every 5mins approx). They ranged in size from grape up to small melon size. The couloir didn't come into direct sunlight until 11.00ish as I remember but I was a bit knackered by then!
There were a couple of 1m-ish holes / grooves across the path (where melt water was running below the snow) by the cable which had to be jumped across although nothing major.
From what we saw over the 2 days, people were crossing at all times of the day. Some roped up and some not, some in groups, some solo on their own and some with spotters shouting advice (i.e "Leg it!").
The pair of us opted for roping up with a good few metres of rope between us with the rope clipped into the cable via a long sling, this seemed to be the recommendation of the signs either side of the cable.
Stay safe fella.
Hi Iain,
I was on Mont Blanc last week (Thursday / Friday). We crossed at 4.00pm on the way up (far from ideal, I know)and at 11.00am on the way down.
On the descent from the Gouter we were alongside the Couloir from 9.00am and there were bits and pieces falling down it continously during the 2 hour descent all be it infrequently (once every 5mins approx). They ranged in size from grape up to small melon size. The couloir didn't come into direct sunlight until 11.00ish as I remember but I was a bit knackered by then!
There were a couple of 1m-ish holes / grooves across the path (where melt water was running below the snow) by the cable which had to be jumped across although nothing major.
From what we saw over the 2 days, people were crossing at all times of the day. Some roped up and some not, some in groups, some solo on their own and some with spotters shouting advice (i.e "Leg it!").
The pair of us opted for roping up with a good few metres of rope between us with the rope clipped into the cable via a long sling, this seemed to be the recommendation of the signs either side of the cable.
Stay safe fella.
In reply to jon:
I remember going up the LH side in the mid 1980's. There was short section that was about Diff, near the top. It certainly wasn't equipped in those days. It's a long time ago, but I think I climbed straight up and didn't traverse over to the top of the normal route.
I remember going up the LH side in the mid 1980's. There was short section that was about Diff, near the top. It certainly wasn't equipped in those days. It's a long time ago, but I think I climbed straight up and didn't traverse over to the top of the normal route.
In reply to wilkesley:
It actually gets V+, I think!
My Post should have read: <on the face of it,> it seems to be the answer.
> (In reply to jon)
>
> I remember going up the LH side in the mid 1980's. There was short section that was about Diff, near the top.
>
> I remember going up the LH side in the mid 1980's. There was short section that was about Diff, near the top.
It actually gets V+, I think!
My Post should have read: <on the face of it,> it seems to be the answer.
In reply to IainMunro:
Hi Iain,
Having descended the Gouter Route a couple of weekends ago, I would reckon you have to make your own judgment as to when the best time would be to pass.. When we were descending, the gully was in full sunlight and the rock fall came in concentrated bursts, which made it easier to judge whith to scamper across.. Its not a large distance you have to cross, and with two equal partners will be over v. quickly. You could also clip the cable which hangs across the couloir, extending the rope between yourselves, which would provide extra protection.. However when we were there around 11am the stone fall was fairly constant, and you had to make a quick crossing.. - Summary - Best to watch the stonefall, and make a quick crossing - it's not that far.. Good Luck!!
Hi Iain,
Having descended the Gouter Route a couple of weekends ago, I would reckon you have to make your own judgment as to when the best time would be to pass.. When we were descending, the gully was in full sunlight and the rock fall came in concentrated bursts, which made it easier to judge whith to scamper across.. Its not a large distance you have to cross, and with two equal partners will be over v. quickly. You could also clip the cable which hangs across the couloir, extending the rope between yourselves, which would provide extra protection.. However when we were there around 11am the stone fall was fairly constant, and you had to make a quick crossing.. - Summary - Best to watch the stonefall, and make a quick crossing - it's not that far.. Good Luck!!
In reply to Juki:
...........not at all. good mountaineering sense. just because other "idiots" decide to cross a very dangerous place doesn't mean I have to. stupid comment - yours.
> (In reply to unclesamsauntibess)
> [...]
>
> People doing that are nothing but selfish idiots.
> [...]
>
> People doing that are nothing but selfish idiots.
...........not at all. good mountaineering sense. just because other "idiots" decide to cross a very dangerous place doesn't mean I have to. stupid comment - yours.
In reply to fromthesouth:
who says? plus the mountain causes the hazard in the gully - are you going to tell it to stop being naughty as it "is knocking rocks down"? idiot.
> (In reply to unclesamsauntibess)
>
> Youre gonna knock rocks down...
>
> Youre gonna knock rocks down...
who says? plus the mountain causes the hazard in the gully - are you going to tell it to stop being naughty as it "is knocking rocks down"? idiot.
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
Idiot? The rock is loose. People traversing across the top of the couloir will increase the amount of rockfall onto the people below - that is my opinion.
Idiot? The rock is loose. People traversing across the top of the couloir will increase the amount of rockfall onto the people below - that is my opinion.
In reply to jon:
It must have changed a lot since I did it. It was nothing like V+. In my 1976 guidebook it is described as "From here one can follow any of the ribs directly above or a little L over steep unpleasant rocks to the top of the cliffs and the hut (PD+). The rib to the R of the couloir is the easiest and normal way... ". When I did it PD+ seemed about the right grade.
> (In reply to wilkesley)
> [...]
>
> It actually gets V+, I think!
> My Post should have read: <on the face of it,> it seems to be the answer.
> [...]
>
> It actually gets V+, I think!
> My Post should have read: <on the face of it,> it seems to be the answer.
It must have changed a lot since I did it. It was nothing like V+. In my 1976 guidebook it is described as "From here one can follow any of the ribs directly above or a little L over steep unpleasant rocks to the top of the cliffs and the hut (PD+). The rib to the R of the couloir is the easiest and normal way... ". When I did it PD+ seemed about the right grade.
In reply to Juki: No, it's your fault for standing under where rocks are falling and climbing underneath other people.
When are they going to start the tunnel? that sounds like a sensible alternative
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/1018-a-tunnel-for-the-gouter-couloir...
There must be loads of rock up there. If it is falling all day everyday, how much can be left up there?
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/1018-a-tunnel-for-the-gouter-couloir...
There must be loads of rock up there. If it is falling all day everyday, how much can be left up there?
In reply to fromthesouth:
If everyone crosses at the top it won't matter will it? Why should sensible/safe people compromise their ascent just to benefit others who are neither safe, competent or intelligent? Idiot. I suppose you want an escalator with a roof?
> (In reply to unclesamsauntibess)
>
> Idiot? The rock is loose. People traversing across the top of the couloir will increase the amount of rockfall onto the people below - that is my opinion.
>
> Idiot? The rock is loose. People traversing across the top of the couloir will increase the amount of rockfall onto the people below - that is my opinion.
If everyone crosses at the top it won't matter will it? Why should sensible/safe people compromise their ascent just to benefit others who are neither safe, competent or intelligent? Idiot. I suppose you want an escalator with a roof?
In reply to IainMunro: my first attempt at the end of the month, so a question about crossing the Couloir as a group of four.
I thought if we cross as a two groups of two, looking out for each other, that'd be the best way?
I've got an 8mm 30m rope that I was planning on taking with me (as my pairs main/only rope), so if I crossed on that as one pair, clipped onto the wire - what is the best way to do this?
I'm assuming:
Clip into the wire with a screwgate (on a fig8 ?), tie in myself with a overhand and crab, the rear person tie in the end or again with an overhand or and crab (storing any slack)?
What length should I pay out for the wire, i.e. how high is the wire above me at its greatest distance? what should be our spacing?
Bit of a daft question (I'm sure I could rock up and work it out) - but its been playing on my mind and I'm be grateful for others experience.
cheers.
J.
I thought if we cross as a two groups of two, looking out for each other, that'd be the best way?
I've got an 8mm 30m rope that I was planning on taking with me (as my pairs main/only rope), so if I crossed on that as one pair, clipped onto the wire - what is the best way to do this?
I'm assuming:
Clip into the wire with a screwgate (on a fig8 ?), tie in myself with a overhand and crab, the rear person tie in the end or again with an overhand or and crab (storing any slack)?
What length should I pay out for the wire, i.e. how high is the wire above me at its greatest distance? what should be our spacing?
Bit of a daft question (I'm sure I could rock up and work it out) - but its been playing on my mind and I'm be grateful for others experience.
cheers.
J.
In reply to jonnylowes:
The times I have crossed, I just used a sling to clip myself to the wire. I haven't crossed it since the 1980's, so the height of the wire may be different now.
My personal opinion is that unless you are very good at rope handling, it might be more dangerous doing it roped. More chance of tripping/pulling your partner over. If you are clipped to the wire, the only benefit I can see of using the rope is to pull an injured partner to the far side.
The whole thing is something of a lottery. Even if you wait for a gap in the volleys, you can still be unlucky. It's best just to walk (not run) quickly over and keep an eye out for anything heading in your direction.
The times I have crossed, I just used a sling to clip myself to the wire. I haven't crossed it since the 1980's, so the height of the wire may be different now.
My personal opinion is that unless you are very good at rope handling, it might be more dangerous doing it roped. More chance of tripping/pulling your partner over. If you are clipped to the wire, the only benefit I can see of using the rope is to pull an injured partner to the far side.
The whole thing is something of a lottery. Even if you wait for a gap in the volleys, you can still be unlucky. It's best just to walk (not run) quickly over and keep an eye out for anything heading in your direction.
In reply to jonnylowes:
Don't bother clipping into the rope. It was out of reach the last time I was there ...Just look up listen and when all seems calm move across as fast as possible.
> (In reply to IainMunro) my first attempt at the end of the month, so a question about crossing the Couloir as a group of four.
>
> I thought if we cross as a two groups of two, looking out for each other, that'd be the best way?
>
> I thought if we cross as a two groups of two, looking out for each other, that'd be the best way?
Don't bother clipping into the rope. It was out of reach the last time I was there ...Just look up listen and when all seems calm move across as fast as possible.
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
Can I assume that you have done this route and know what the situation is there?
Can I assume that you have done this route and know what the situation is there?
In reply to liz j:
I've seen that before, that's what got me thinking.
> (In reply to jonnylowes)
> Don't do what this guy did!
> Don't do what this guy did!
I've seen that before, that's what got me thinking.
In reply to wilkesley:
seemed about that when i followed a guide up it many years ago in the dark
- no real problem - and some of the group of three handn't really done much 'climbing'
> (In reply to jon)
> [...]
>
When I did it PD+ seemed about the right grade.> [...]
>
seemed about that when i followed a guide up it many years ago in the dark
- no real problem - and some of the group of three handn't really done much 'climbing'
In reply to jonnylowes:
Hi Jonny,
There are signs either side of the couloir. They suggest that you rope up as if you were crossing a glacier (fig 8 into harness, chest coils etc) then clip one end of a sling into the rope so it is free to move inbetween the 2 climbers and clip the other end onto the cable. Its worth noting that when I crossed last week by the time you got to the middle of the couloir, the cable was 3-4m out of reach so make sure you leave sufficient rope length to allow for this so that rope doesn't get too taut when you get to the middle. Granted a rope gives you another thing to manage / trip over but personally I'd rather dangle than fall in the event of a stumble / rock strike.
Good luck.
Hi Jonny,
There are signs either side of the couloir. They suggest that you rope up as if you were crossing a glacier (fig 8 into harness, chest coils etc) then clip one end of a sling into the rope so it is free to move inbetween the 2 climbers and clip the other end onto the cable. Its worth noting that when I crossed last week by the time you got to the middle of the couloir, the cable was 3-4m out of reach so make sure you leave sufficient rope length to allow for this so that rope doesn't get too taut when you get to the middle. Granted a rope gives you another thing to manage / trip over but personally I'd rather dangle than fall in the event of a stumble / rock strike.
Good luck.
In reply to IainMunro:
Crossed it yesterday at midday and it was dangerous, some one who pushed in front of me about to cross very nearly got hit, literally inches in it. We crossed at 7am on the way up and it was fine, I left my gloves on one side (i know im an idiot) and felt safe enough to go back and get them. Its dependant on the weather if its been snowing and freezing clod up there early on your going to be fine. The cable is pretty high, we roped together and put the rope over the cable.
Good Luck
Crossed it yesterday at midday and it was dangerous, some one who pushed in front of me about to cross very nearly got hit, literally inches in it. We crossed at 7am on the way up and it was fine, I left my gloves on one side (i know im an idiot) and felt safe enough to go back and get them. Its dependant on the weather if its been snowing and freezing clod up there early on your going to be fine. The cable is pretty high, we roped together and put the rope over the cable.
Good Luck
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