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Just wondering if anyone has been climbing at the same or similar grade for ages and suddenly had a breakthrough to the next grade or more? What clicked, what was the reason, what did you do to improve.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I think you need to track down Mick Ward of this parish (and how to climb three grades harder).
Others will have stories to tell.
Personally, it's all down to self belief, or lack of. Very occasionally I climb to my full potential; but that would be about once in a decade
I think you need to track down Mick Ward of this parish (and how to climb three grades harder).
Others will have stories to tell.
Personally, it's all down to self belief, or lack of. Very occasionally I climb to my full potential; but that would be about once in a decade
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I gained a load of weight which forced me to develop technique, lost the weight and climbed harder.
I gained a load of weight which forced me to develop technique, lost the weight and climbed harder.
In reply to Phill Mitch: Actually I had a breakthrough this summer, for no reason at all, apparently.
I climb indoors. At the start of summer I was knocking off 6a and 6b no bother, 6b+ was challenging, more so with 6c. I stopped going to the centre for about three months, other things got in the way (mainly hill walking) then started going back last month.
The minute I walked back in, to present, I've been OS'ing 6b-6c and working 6c-7a. And I don't think the wall got any easier!!
I don't imagine a three month break is the conventional improvement method, though...
I climb indoors. At the start of summer I was knocking off 6a and 6b no bother, 6b+ was challenging, more so with 6c. I stopped going to the centre for about three months, other things got in the way (mainly hill walking) then started going back last month.
The minute I walked back in, to present, I've been OS'ing 6b-6c and working 6c-7a. And I don't think the wall got any easier!!
I don't imagine a three month break is the conventional improvement method, though...
In reply to kwoods:
I don't know about 3 months but I think it's a common thing to find that a good break can lead to improvement. A fresh approach, having hit a training plateau, focus on technique rather than strength, recover from niggling injuries etc.
I don't know about 3 months but I think it's a common thing to find that a good break can lead to improvement. A fresh approach, having hit a training plateau, focus on technique rather than strength, recover from niggling injuries etc.
In reply to JonC: Ha yes, I have seen Mick Wards how to....
I do believe in my self but kind of wish I didn't, then I could do that
I do believe in my self but kind of wish I didn't, then I could do that
In reply to Phill Mitch:
a couple of times.
always after climbing with much better climbers and simply watching (and belaying of course).
once was simply realizing i had to turn even more side-on to the rack, and how to shift that angle whilst moving past it.
another time (on ice admittedly) was similar, shifting angle towards the face, sinking feet and tools in better relation to it, shifting as moving past.
its much harder on ice. people who say 'its just all jugs' have no idea.
a couple of times.
always after climbing with much better climbers and simply watching (and belaying of course).
once was simply realizing i had to turn even more side-on to the rack, and how to shift that angle whilst moving past it.
another time (on ice admittedly) was similar, shifting angle towards the face, sinking feet and tools in better relation to it, shifting as moving past.
its much harder on ice. people who say 'its just all jugs' have no idea.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Just seen your profile. I will step aside for someone who knows what they're talking about...
Just seen your profile. I will step aside for someone who knows what they're talking about...
In reply to kwoods:That's my ideal answer. Just have 3 months off. Ha hope it works for me.
In reply to JonC: All input gladly received.The grade means nothing.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I just lead my first HVS, Devils edge at Kyloe. It was in the darkness and I didn't have a head torch so couldn't see how scary it was. Probably wouldn't have done it if I had!
I just lead my first HVS, Devils edge at Kyloe. It was in the darkness and I didn't have a head torch so couldn't see how scary it was. Probably wouldn't have done it if I had!
In reply to Phill Mitch:
It took me a ages to get from 6c+ onsight to onsighting 7a because I never tried many - I think the grade 7 intimidated me a little - but I went climbing some mates who were in to redpointing which I'd never done properly before. They pointed me up a 7a, Clarion Call at Chee Dale, which I thought felt pretty hard for 7a, and I fell off the low crux quicky. However after a little more working I finally got my first clean 7a. This gave me the confidence to just try onsight a 7a and a little later I did, then 7a+, 7b and 7b+ onsights came soon after!
This problem probably doesn't affect you though cos you're already a beast!
And sorry if you were after anything to do with trad climbing - I dont do it much...
It took me a ages to get from 6c+ onsight to onsighting 7a because I never tried many - I think the grade 7 intimidated me a little - but I went climbing some mates who were in to redpointing which I'd never done properly before. They pointed me up a 7a, Clarion Call at Chee Dale, which I thought felt pretty hard for 7a, and I fell off the low crux quicky. However after a little more working I finally got my first clean 7a. This gave me the confidence to just try onsight a 7a and a little later I did, then 7a+, 7b and 7b+ onsights came soon after!
This problem probably doesn't affect you though cos you're already a beast!
And sorry if you were after anything to do with trad climbing - I dont do it much...
In reply to Phill Mitch: I had a follow through once, does that count?
In reply to JonC:
I had a pulley injury last summer. My GP - who is a climber - said continue climbing but two full number grades below my limit. So I did two months of easy mileage at the wall and long scrambles at weekends, after which I was immediately easily onsighting my previous best grade, and then improved two grades in a couple of months.
I suspect if we're talking beginner grades around the 6a/b level, technique is so much more important than strength that a lot of easy mileage to improve confidence and fluency more than makes up for any loss of strength. Good luck finding the discipline to rigorously stick to an easy mileage programme if you're not injured though.
>
> it's a common thing to find that a good break can lead to improvement. A fresh approach, having hit a training plateau, focus on technique rather than strength, recover from niggling injuries etc.
> it's a common thing to find that a good break can lead to improvement. A fresh approach, having hit a training plateau, focus on technique rather than strength, recover from niggling injuries etc.
I had a pulley injury last summer. My GP - who is a climber - said continue climbing but two full number grades below my limit. So I did two months of easy mileage at the wall and long scrambles at weekends, after which I was immediately easily onsighting my previous best grade, and then improved two grades in a couple of months.
I suspect if we're talking beginner grades around the 6a/b level, technique is so much more important than strength that a lot of easy mileage to improve confidence and fluency more than makes up for any loss of strength. Good luck finding the discipline to rigorously stick to an easy mileage programme if you're not injured though.
In reply to Phill Mitch: I was climbing round about 5b/5c for about a year but I was relying far too much on crimping. Then I injured my finger and started reading up on injuries and discovered open handed grip. I came back and tried to climb only open handed. I immediately dropped about two grades but came back to my old grade quickly and I'm now making good progress up the grades.
In reply to Phill Mitch: I started this trad season(summer) wanting to consolidate VS; I've been climbing for a couple of years maybe three now and my technical ability far outshone my actual achievements. Indoors at the start if the year I was regularly on-sighting 6B+ some 6C , outside on-sighting odd 6A's but not doing much Bolt clipping.
I got some Mileage in on VS, began to think about looking at HVS, did one and then a couple of weeks ago on-sighted E1 (absolutely chuffed with myself smiley).
For me the difference was having the confidence to try and having got enough mileage in that I could improve my reading of the rock. Indoors i'm a bit worse because I've not been much. ho hum.
I got some Mileage in on VS, began to think about looking at HVS, did one and then a couple of weeks ago on-sighted E1 (absolutely chuffed with myself smiley).
For me the difference was having the confidence to try and having got enough mileage in that I could improve my reading of the rock. Indoors i'm a bit worse because I've not been much. ho hum.
In reply to Phill Mitch: This saturday just gone I thought I"d man up and have a go at an HVS.
I started leading VS in April this year, and it all seemed to be going ok. I picked Ledgend Direct at Guilemot Ledge (which looked to be a well protected HVS with a short crux).
After looking at all the comments on it's log I jumped straight on it as my first climb of the day.
It was in perfect condition (no grease) and went like a dream (leaving me wondering why I had got so worried about it).
Now I know that someones bound to say, " Ah, yes but it's an easy HVS" or "you wanna try this one or that one which is much harder", but it was my first (hopefully of many) and really boosted my confidence. I'm sure that there will be disappointments and lead falls ahead, but I was well chuffed with myself, and it made me think that my goal of an easy E1 (or two ) next year is actually achievable.
I started leading VS in April this year, and it all seemed to be going ok. I picked Ledgend Direct at Guilemot Ledge (which looked to be a well protected HVS with a short crux).
After looking at all the comments on it's log I jumped straight on it as my first climb of the day.
It was in perfect condition (no grease) and went like a dream (leaving me wondering why I had got so worried about it).
Now I know that someones bound to say, " Ah, yes but it's an easy HVS" or "you wanna try this one or that one which is much harder", but it was my first (hopefully of many) and really boosted my confidence. I'm sure that there will be disappointments and lead falls ahead, but I was well chuffed with myself, and it made me think that my goal of an easy E1 (or two ) next year is actually achievable.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Hours of doing silent feet in the climbing centre made a massive difference to my technique. If you haven't done it you should!
Hours of doing silent feet in the climbing centre made a massive difference to my technique. If you haven't done it you should!
In reply to James Oswald: I spent the winter working on better footwork indoors, now I think about them first when outside and that's contributed. Also trying never to lunge for a hold indoors but rather to be able to do dynamic moves slowly, in a controlled and reversible fashion.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I've had a bit of a break through this year. It's been a combination of more consistent training (well, climbing down the wall, I've never got into 'training' yet in 14 years of climbing, though I'd like to), and getting out with some people who're better than me. Also, to a degree, losing the onsight obsession. Which is to say, thinking 'sod it, just get on it! Have a go and if you get up it great, if you have to rest/fall, well, at least you're pushing.'
It's meant I've climbed E2 this year, including Quietus - a route I never dreamed of even trying until my attitude shifted.
I've had a bit of a break through this year. It's been a combination of more consistent training (well, climbing down the wall, I've never got into 'training' yet in 14 years of climbing, though I'd like to), and getting out with some people who're better than me. Also, to a degree, losing the onsight obsession. Which is to say, thinking 'sod it, just get on it! Have a go and if you get up it great, if you have to rest/fall, well, at least you're pushing.'
It's meant I've climbed E2 this year, including Quietus - a route I never dreamed of even trying until my attitude shifted.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Breaking E4 was simply about getting on a few and putting up with a high failure rate at first. Getting better now. Starting to look at E5s and saying to myself, 'don't leave it too long this time'. Next summer...
Breaking E4 was simply about getting on a few and putting up with a high failure rate at first. Getting better now. Starting to look at E5s and saying to myself, 'don't leave it too long this time'. Next summer...
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I had a breakthrough when I started climbing E1. The reason I started climbing E1 was because I started climbing E1 climbs. For years I had been making excuses to myself for not climbing them. As soon as I did it I discovered I could do it.
> What clicked, what was the reason, what did you do to improve.
I had a breakthrough when I started climbing E1. The reason I started climbing E1 was because I started climbing E1 climbs. For years I had been making excuses to myself for not climbing them. As soon as I did it I discovered I could do it.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Just got back from El Chorro, (and a two and half day course with the fabulous Silvia Fitzpatrick).
Only done a spot of sport before (4+ was my previous best outside, but was leading 5-6b depending on the style inside).
I had hoped to pushed to 5/5+ sport, but thanks to Silvia, I managed a 6b flash (as in my life flashed before my eyes on the crux) and several 6a+ onsights.
On a high, I've been to wall 3 times in less than a week, and currently spending my time falling off 6b+ and 6cs!
I think I may need to update my long-term goals (and life insurance): I was aiming for:
Top rope/indoors: 7a
Sport:6a
Trad: E1
I'm not sure I have (or will have) the technical ability to exceed 7a, but 6c sport and E2/E3 now don't seem unobtainable in a year or two.... very chuffed and excited!
Just got back from El Chorro, (and a two and half day course with the fabulous Silvia Fitzpatrick).
Only done a spot of sport before (4+ was my previous best outside, but was leading 5-6b depending on the style inside).
I had hoped to pushed to 5/5+ sport, but thanks to Silvia, I managed a 6b flash (as in my life flashed before my eyes on the crux) and several 6a+ onsights.
On a high, I've been to wall 3 times in less than a week, and currently spending my time falling off 6b+ and 6cs!
I think I may need to update my long-term goals (and life insurance): I was aiming for:
Top rope/indoors: 7a
Sport:6a
Trad: E1
I'm not sure I have (or will have) the technical ability to exceed 7a, but 6c sport and E2/E3 now don't seem unobtainable in a year or two.... very chuffed and excited!
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Having coaching sessions with a good coach who showed me how to use momentum and get out of my static ways, losing 10% of my body fat and getting stronger by bouldering a lot.
It won't happen by itself you've got to target a weakness and work at it.
Having coaching sessions with a good coach who showed me how to use momentum and get out of my static ways, losing 10% of my body fat and getting stronger by bouldering a lot.
It won't happen by itself you've got to target a weakness and work at it.
In reply to mmmhumous:
Did you climb with the 2 Sylvias ? I am good friends with the other ( not Sylvia Fitzatrick )
Rosario is 25 mins from my house in Spain, it's a lovely spot and Sylvia F seems to have spent a lot of time bolting some really good routes for coaching.
Did you climb with the 2 Sylvias ? I am good friends with the other ( not Sylvia Fitzatrick )
Rosario is 25 mins from my house in Spain, it's a lovely spot and Sylvia F seems to have spent a lot of time bolting some really good routes for coaching.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I've done most of my improvement in one bound, which is rubbish as you don't get to enjoy all the grade victories along the way.
Key for me was climbing with better(and better motivated) climbers, and actually getting on the harder routes. Find it much easier to make excuses not to, than talk myself into trying harder stuff.
I've done most of my improvement in one bound, which is rubbish as you don't get to enjoy all the grade victories along the way.
Key for me was climbing with better(and better motivated) climbers, and actually getting on the harder routes. Find it much easier to make excuses not to, than talk myself into trying harder stuff.
In reply to biscuit:
Nope just the one. She had us doing a mix of trad/sport/multiptich while doing a ropes skills/rescue course at Rosario (El Chorro was far too hot. Of the various routes we did ,the only names I know were "2x2" and "2+1". She's midway through developing a multipitch route over on the eastern side of Rosario at the moment.
She's great at building your confidence and pushing you just enough. The routes she chose for the course were absolutely spot on.
Nope just the one. She had us doing a mix of trad/sport/multiptich while doing a ropes skills/rescue course at Rosario (El Chorro was far too hot. Of the various routes we did ,the only names I know were "2x2" and "2+1". She's midway through developing a multipitch route over on the eastern side of Rosario at the moment.
She's great at building your confidence and pushing you just enough. The routes she chose for the course were absolutely spot on.
In reply to Phill Mitch: I had a breakthrough after years of climbing V.Diff (sorry to lower the tone/grade) by simply getting on Severes and climbing them. Then tried the same with HS and didn't have any real probs eg O/S Tennis Shoe/Bow Shaped Slab as examples. I also went on an excellent weekend course (Smart CLimbing).
But recently went to Cornwall and whilst I felt like I was climbing well, I found a few V.Diffs/HVD's really tough. Anyway, trying not to be put off, thought I'd have ago at Demo ROute (HS) at Sennen. Ended up bailing as couldn't get started in the chimney. Now feel confidence is very fragile and am just hoping normal service will be resumed when back on Welsh rock (if it ever stops raining).
But recently went to Cornwall and whilst I felt like I was climbing well, I found a few V.Diffs/HVD's really tough. Anyway, trying not to be put off, thought I'd have ago at Demo ROute (HS) at Sennen. Ended up bailing as couldn't get started in the chimney. Now feel confidence is very fragile and am just hoping normal service will be resumed when back on Welsh rock (if it ever stops raining).
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Eventually got past my "ceiling" of VS by climbing regularly with people who were better.
Eventually got past my "ceiling" of VS by climbing regularly with people who were better.
I unintentially had a break from climbing after getting really shot down on a sport climbing trip at the start of the summer. I then started at uni with a whole club of keen climbers, climbing just slightly harder than I did. After heading indoors a few times with the club and leading indoors as opposed to my usual routine of just bouldering. I headed outside over the last few weeks and have climbed several routes far beyond what I thought I could which is partly down to the training, and partly down to climbing with new people and just wanting to give the best impression of my ability to them.
In reply to JonC:
> (In reply to Phill Mitch)
>
> I think you need to track down Mick Ward of this parish (and how to climb three grades harder).
>
> At the age of 53, with the help of Mick, I went from F6a+ to F7a+. Thanks Mick!
>
> I think you need to track down Mick Ward of this parish (and how to climb three grades harder).
>
> At the age of 53, with the help of Mick, I went from F6a+ to F7a+. Thanks Mick!
In reply to Phill Mitch: After months of trying to transfer my indoor bouldering to outdoor problems I finally ticked my first font 6a well as a 6a+ and a 6b.. Think it was the competition of having someone slightly younger and better than me but not so much so that I couldn't see myself doing them too.. All in all im pretty chuffed for what was a casual day on local rock
Some fantastic grade surges going on. Many a good example and ideas to try. The way forward for me, looks like I need to get more milage in and man up. I am also thinking, I need to stop my on sight only approach. I do hate failing on routes, not only because I hate falling, but you only get one chance to on-sight the classics.
So, conclusion so far -
Climb more
Try harder routes
Don't be scared of failing on some
Get my head around falling more
Look up Mick Ward
Possibly get coaching advice
Look into any short falls in technique
Try working some sport routes
Plenty of great improvers out there, thanks for passing on the enthusiasm and stories. Any more gladly read and digested.
Cheers Phill.
So, conclusion so far -
Climb more
Try harder routes
Don't be scared of failing on some
Get my head around falling more
Look up Mick Ward
Possibly get coaching advice
Look into any short falls in technique
Try working some sport routes
Plenty of great improvers out there, thanks for passing on the enthusiasm and stories. Any more gladly read and digested.
Cheers Phill.
In reply to EeeByGum I think you have hit the nail on the head, or maybe I would like to think that!
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Surely just about every climber has experienced just such a break through from being a bumbling novice to suddenly being able to climb quite well?
Surely just about every climber has experienced just such a break through from being a bumbling novice to suddenly being able to climb quite well?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I have had a few Gordon,but I am waiting for the next and wondering if it's going to come before I am too old. Is it a bad thing to hear all the good, progressive stories and share them.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I think I had about three, actually. No idea what your last sentence is about, because of course I'd love to hear about anyone's personal experience of this.
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth) I have had a few Gordon,but I am waiting for the next and wondering if it's going to come before I am too old. Is it a bad thing to hear all the good, progressive stories and share them.
I think I had about three, actually. No idea what your last sentence is about, because of course I'd love to hear about anyone's personal experience of this.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
A couple of sport grades (across the styles) this year by virtue of having more time to climb, focusing more on sport during that time and losing a chunk of weight.
The self belief is very important though too. Whoever it was above who had gone from 5+ to 6b but didn't thinkthey could do 7a - belief is the first step, so whilst you believe you won't you probably won't. 7a is just like a slightly longer, steeper, harder or thinner version of a 6b, there's no magic step change in technique you need, just keep trying Asgard as you can each time you go out and the grades will slowly keep creeping upwards...
A couple of sport grades (across the styles) this year by virtue of having more time to climb, focusing more on sport during that time and losing a chunk of weight.
The self belief is very important though too. Whoever it was above who had gone from 5+ to 6b but didn't thinkthey could do 7a - belief is the first step, so whilst you believe you won't you probably won't. 7a is just like a slightly longer, steeper, harder or thinner version of a 6b, there's no magic step change in technique you need, just keep trying Asgard as you can each time you go out and the grades will slowly keep creeping upwards...
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I recently had some coaching with this guy: http://nikjennings.com/
I found it very useful. Typical coaching approach of working out what your goals are and identifying your weaknesses. What I thought was my limit is apparently a couple of grades below what it actually is and just knowing that has inspired me to try harder and embrace failure a bit more than I was (only by failing can we improve padwan).
He's based in Todmorden so I imagine he coaches over your way too.
If you don't fancy that then getting into the redpoint frame of mind will definately help you out. As your top redpoint grade increases it has a knock on effect to your onsight grade (I've been told).
I recently had some coaching with this guy: http://nikjennings.com/
I found it very useful. Typical coaching approach of working out what your goals are and identifying your weaknesses. What I thought was my limit is apparently a couple of grades below what it actually is and just knowing that has inspired me to try harder and embrace failure a bit more than I was (only by failing can we improve padwan).
He's based in Todmorden so I imagine he coaches over your way too.
If you don't fancy that then getting into the redpoint frame of mind will definately help you out. As your top redpoint grade increases it has a knock on effect to your onsight grade (I've been told).
In reply to Eagle River:
Lose 3 stone .. 1/2 stone = 1 grade (rooughly) so 3 stone should take me from 6c to 7c in sports climbing (currently 13 stone and 5'6")
Lose 3 stone .. 1/2 stone = 1 grade (rooughly) so 3 stone should take me from 6c to 7c in sports climbing (currently 13 stone and 5'6")
In reply to mmmhumous:
Well done but why having seen the mental hurdles can be knocked down quite easily with a little help do you immediately line up another 'insurmountable' one at 7a?
7a is like 6c+ (but easier!), it's like 7a+, like 7b, there's no general step change in technicality. There are hideously technical 6s and trivially simple (pumpy) 7s. If we graded routes A, B, C, D... X, Y whatever we'd not have these obvious (non existent) discontinuities to fixate on (even with the Australian system you can fixate on the transition from 10s to 20s then onward into the 30s). My advice would be not to aim for 7a but aim for 'the F7s', when you get toward the top of those aim for 'the 8s'!
jk
> I had hoped to pushed to 5/5+ sport, but thanks to Silvia, I managed a 6b flash (as in my life flashed before my eyes on the crux) and several 6a+ onsights.
> I think I may need to update my long-term goals (and life insurance): I was aiming for:
> I'm not sure I have (or will have) the technical ability to exceed 7a, but 6c sport and E2/E3 now don't seem unobtainable in a year or two.... very chuffed and excited!
Well done but why having seen the mental hurdles can be knocked down quite easily with a little help do you immediately line up another 'insurmountable' one at 7a?
7a is like 6c+ (but easier!), it's like 7a+, like 7b, there's no general step change in technicality. There are hideously technical 6s and trivially simple (pumpy) 7s. If we graded routes A, B, C, D... X, Y whatever we'd not have these obvious (non existent) discontinuities to fixate on (even with the Australian system you can fixate on the transition from 10s to 20s then onward into the 30s). My advice would be not to aim for 7a but aim for 'the F7s', when you get toward the top of those aim for 'the 8s'!
jk
In reply to jkarran:
One of those "I agree" things from UKB would come in handy right now.
The lesson taken away from that training shouldn't be "you can climb 6b" but surely that "your limitations are as much your own mind as anything else"...
One of those "I agree" things from UKB would come in handy right now.
The lesson taken away from that training shouldn't be "you can climb 6b" but surely that "your limitations are as much your own mind as anything else"...
In reply to AJM:
Bingo!
> (In reply to jkarran)
> "your limitations are as much your own mind as anything else"...
> "your limitations are as much your own mind as anything else"...
Bingo!
In reply to jonny2vests:
^^ This.
Accepting failure is defo the way forward on trad, being preciuos about onsighting everything holds people back. Falling off it not failure tho, it's success. Failure is giving up or even worse, not even setting off.
> (In reply to Phill Mitch)
>
> Breaking E4 was simply about getting on a few and putting up with a high failure rate at first. Getting better now. Starting to look at E5s and saying to myself, 'don't leave it too long this time'. Next summer...
>
> Breaking E4 was simply about getting on a few and putting up with a high failure rate at first. Getting better now. Starting to look at E5s and saying to myself, 'don't leave it too long this time'. Next summer...
^^ This.
Accepting failure is defo the way forward on trad, being preciuos about onsighting everything holds people back. Falling off it not failure tho, it's success. Failure is giving up or even worse, not even setting off.
In reply to Phill Mitch: Is there ever really a breakthrough? Yes, someone who's struggled at grade A might suddenly top out a grade B and think 'wow' and that will be their breakthrough. It isn't however really a breakthrough, it might be something as simple as getting on a route not knowing the grade i.e. tricking yourself, picking something that suits your style or even actually trying (and not stressing about falling at the same time). You can't actually call it a breakthrough if one day you decide to try a bit harder, that should be a given. And if you are honestly trying, putting time in, thinking about it and making sacrifices, then, all things being equal, progression should be a given.
Get on stuff you find hard, be that sport or trad. Fall and learn the lessons about why you fell (I'd say this applies more to trad than sport as you really should be falling on sport all the time or you're just not doing it right). Boulder more, make bouldering progress an objective in itself. Vary the crags you go to / styles you climb. Climb outside more than inside. Try not to put doing things off (trad routes you really want to do for example), don't make excuses.
Your profile shows you've done a lot of sport on Kalymnos. I'd suggest forget Kalymnos grades and get some sport done in the UK to get a better measure of things. Often fingery, often cruxy, often not suited to onsighting but will help your climbing loads. Start redpointing things ('to death' if necessary): training gains, confidence gains and a big smile when it comes together.
Good luck!
Get on stuff you find hard, be that sport or trad. Fall and learn the lessons about why you fell (I'd say this applies more to trad than sport as you really should be falling on sport all the time or you're just not doing it right). Boulder more, make bouldering progress an objective in itself. Vary the crags you go to / styles you climb. Climb outside more than inside. Try not to put doing things off (trad routes you really want to do for example), don't make excuses.
Your profile shows you've done a lot of sport on Kalymnos. I'd suggest forget Kalymnos grades and get some sport done in the UK to get a better measure of things. Often fingery, often cruxy, often not suited to onsighting but will help your climbing loads. Start redpointing things ('to death' if necessary): training gains, confidence gains and a big smile when it comes together.
Good luck!
In reply to snoop6060:
Yeah, there's too many routes in the world to do in 100 lifetimes, so worrying about the onsight rarely bothers me unless its like Right Wall. Tell that to Cragrat Rich though...
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> ^^ This.
>
> Accepting failure is defo the way forward on trad, being preciuos about onsighting everything holds people back. Falling off it not failure tho, it's success. Failure is giving up or even worse, not even setting off.
> [...]
>
> ^^ This.
>
> Accepting failure is defo the way forward on trad, being preciuos about onsighting everything holds people back. Falling off it not failure tho, it's success. Failure is giving up or even worse, not even setting off.
Yeah, there's too many routes in the world to do in 100 lifetimes, so worrying about the onsight rarely bothers me unless its like Right Wall. Tell that to Cragrat Rich though...
In reply to AJM and jkarran:
Thanks guys
I may well exceed 7a on the right route, with practice, or on a good day, but it just feels like 6c/7a is where I'll end up on average. (I have already managed a 7a crux on top rope, but was too pumped to complete it).
The 6C/7a is more of a physical limit than a mental one, and really just a guestimate rather than an actual limit. (Based it the time I have availble to climb, strength/weight ratio, flexibility etc). There's still plenty of room for improvement in my technique/tactics and flexibility (this week I'll be mostly doing rockovers), but no extra time to climb, and as a heavier climber, weight loss/muscle gain only has a small impact.
The only "fixed limit" that I have in my head is that I don't want to lead above the low E's, and that's purely for safety. (I'm wouldn't be comfortable with the hazards associated with leading in the high Es).
Thanks guys
I may well exceed 7a on the right route, with practice, or on a good day, but it just feels like 6c/7a is where I'll end up on average. (I have already managed a 7a crux on top rope, but was too pumped to complete it).
The 6C/7a is more of a physical limit than a mental one, and really just a guestimate rather than an actual limit. (Based it the time I have availble to climb, strength/weight ratio, flexibility etc). There's still plenty of room for improvement in my technique/tactics and flexibility (this week I'll be mostly doing rockovers), but no extra time to climb, and as a heavier climber, weight loss/muscle gain only has a small impact.
The only "fixed limit" that I have in my head is that I don't want to lead above the low E's, and that's purely for safety. (I'm wouldn't be comfortable with the hazards associated with leading in the high Es).
In reply to mmmhumous: "High Es" whatever you class them as, arent necessarily dangerous, so dont write them off : )
In reply to Phill Mitch:
This year I went from not climbing at all to climbing! I've seconded trad HS outdoors and I boulder (sometimes) at Font 5+ indoors. I want to start next year getting outdoors as much as possible, trad-lead something of any grade and second at least one mulit-pitch route.
This year I went from not climbing at all to climbing! I've seconded trad HS outdoors and I boulder (sometimes) at Font 5+ indoors. I want to start next year getting outdoors as much as possible, trad-lead something of any grade and second at least one mulit-pitch route.
In reply to mmmhumous:
Go try one. Read up on redpoint tactics, don't even try to flash it, save your arms and work it systematically. Pick the right route (one that suits, not a soft touch), get it well dialed in, get your tactics right and it'll feel like flashing something in the mid 6s. It might help open your eyes to the possibilities.
Trust me, assuming you're physically average (meant in the nicest possible way it's *really* not!
There are loads of safe mid-high end traditional routes. Granted they're physically very hard but they can often be stitched up like a kipper! The bold ones get disproportionate media attention because they make for exciting video and can be (so often are) redpointed by some pretty average skilled climbers.
Don't close your mind to any of it from the outset,
jk
> I may well exceed 7a on the right route, with practice, or on a good day, but it just feels like 6c/7a is where I'll end up on average.
Go try one. Read up on redpoint tactics, don't even try to flash it, save your arms and work it systematically. Pick the right route (one that suits, not a soft touch), get it well dialed in, get your tactics right and it'll feel like flashing something in the mid 6s. It might help open your eyes to the possibilities.
> The 6C/7a is more of a physical limit than a mental one
Trust me, assuming you're physically average (meant in the nicest possible way it's *really* not!
> The only "fixed limit" that I have in my head is that I don't want to lead above the low E's, and that's purely for safety. (I'm wouldn't be comfortable with the hazards associated with leading in the high Es).
There are loads of safe mid-high end traditional routes. Granted they're physically very hard but they can often be stitched up like a kipper! The bold ones get disproportionate media attention because they make for exciting video and can be (so often are) redpointed by some pretty average skilled climbers.
Don't close your mind to any of it from the outset,
jk
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Was climbing up to e1 and an occasional e2 for a long time (4 years), with the harder routes on grit. This year now feel happy trying far more e2s inc well known hard ones, and have climbed limestone e3. Feels like a big step. All down to.taking up sport climbing properly and the fitness it has given me.
Was climbing up to e1 and an occasional e2 for a long time (4 years), with the harder routes on grit. This year now feel happy trying far more e2s inc well known hard ones, and have climbed limestone e3. Feels like a big step. All down to.taking up sport climbing properly and the fitness it has given me.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
Am with you on this one Phill however, in these circles there are those that frown upon people toproping a hard or classic 3 star route. For me on the whole much of my ascents have been onsight, although if I didn't feel comfortable going through the crux move after falling off it many times. I would put up a toprope.
> Some fantastic grade surges going on. Many a good example and ideas to try. The way forward for me, looks like I need to get more milage in and man up. I am also thinking, I need to stop my on sight only approach. I do hate failing on routes, not only because I hate falling, but you only get one chance to on-sight the classics.
> So, conclusion so far -
> Climb more
> Try harder routes
> Don't be scared of failing on some
> Get my head around falling more
> Look up Mick Ward
> Possibly get coaching advice
> Look into any short falls in technique
> Try working some sport routes
>
> Plenty of great improvers out there, thanks for passing on the enthusiasm and stories. Any more gladly read and digested.
> Cheers Phill.
> So, conclusion so far -
> Climb more
> Try harder routes
> Don't be scared of failing on some
> Get my head around falling more
> Look up Mick Ward
> Possibly get coaching advice
> Look into any short falls in technique
> Try working some sport routes
>
> Plenty of great improvers out there, thanks for passing on the enthusiasm and stories. Any more gladly read and digested.
> Cheers Phill.
Am with you on this one Phill however, in these circles there are those that frown upon people toproping a hard or classic 3 star route. For me on the whole much of my ascents have been onsight, although if I didn't feel comfortable going through the crux move after falling off it many times. I would put up a toprope.
In reply to Si dH: I actually progressed further on the slate than on the gritstone, but then I tried Granite and thought wow a rock that is so versatile for sport, trad and simply bouldering.
I've got more confident on that particular type of rock.
I've got more confident on that particular type of rock.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I apologise if I have taken this the wrong way, I thought you were dissing the thread as a waste of time.
> (In reply to Phill Mitch)
>
> Surely just about every climber has experienced just such a break through from being a bumbling novice to suddenly being able to climb quite well?
>
> Surely just about every climber has experienced just such a break through from being a bumbling novice to suddenly being able to climb quite well?
I apologise if I have taken this the wrong way, I thought you were dissing the thread as a waste of time.
In reply to jonny2vests:
Right Wall fair enough, but its not Rich that bothers me, its the 25m whipper!
> (In reply to snoop6060)
> [...]
>
> Yeah, there's too many routes in the world to do in 100 lifetimes, so worrying about the onsight rarely bothers me unless its like Right Wall. Tell that to Cragrat Rich though...
> [...]
>
> Yeah, there's too many routes in the world to do in 100 lifetimes, so worrying about the onsight rarely bothers me unless its like Right Wall. Tell that to Cragrat Rich though...
Right Wall fair enough, but its not Rich that bothers me, its the 25m whipper!
In reply to ksjs: I feel I have just had a ticking off from you. I am sure you are right in everything you say, do you think it's to do with the style of day out that I need to alter. I must admit I tend to look for days out that involve on-sighting a 3* classic. Upto press I haven't run out of things to do in the lower grades, mainly because I can only get out every couple of weeks.Or am I making excuses again? HA.
In reply to Phill Mitch: Not sure if it counts as a breakthrough, but this year I went from E2 being quite a challenge and having done just a couple of low-end E3s, to going out and climbing E3 regularly, and cruising some bold ones. It would have been nice to get on an E4 (at Sharpnose) but I ran out of time/weather. I might get on a bold grit E4 like the Strangler or the Brush Off while it's good conditions - that would feel like a breakthrough.
The difference was just doing loads more climbing - I quit my job and spent the summer trad climbing. Not much mystery there.
The difference was just doing loads more climbing - I quit my job and spent the summer trad climbing. Not much mystery there.
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
The start of a lifetime of fun, always looking for the next step and enjoying the newly found ones. Have fun.
> (In reply to Phill Mitch)
>
> This year I went from not climbing at all to climbing! I've seconded trad HS outdoors and I boulder (sometimes) at Font 5+ indoors. I want to start next year getting outdoors as much as possible, trad-lead something of any grade and second at least one mulit-pitch route.
>
> This year I went from not climbing at all to climbing! I've seconded trad HS outdoors and I boulder (sometimes) at Font 5+ indoors. I want to start next year getting outdoors as much as possible, trad-lead something of any grade and second at least one mulit-pitch route.
The start of a lifetime of fun, always looking for the next step and enjoying the newly found ones. Have fun.
In reply to Jon Stewart: Hi Jon hope your well. Sounds like your climbing well anyway. I expect the job thing helps.
It's funny that you say those 2 routes as they are just about the only E4's I have done. Go for Brush Off 1st it's the easyer of the 2, I know your style and know you will cruse it.
It's funny that you say those 2 routes as they are just about the only E4's I have done. Go for Brush Off 1st it's the easyer of the 2, I know your style and know you will cruse it.
In reply to Phill Mitch:
I wasn't at my most positive when I wrote that - sorry! Also, I'm sure I'm not right in everything I say but I guess it feels true for me.
The whole Kalymnos thing gets to me a bit - a large percentage of the grades simply aren't at their grade and it doesn't really help anyone who's trying to progress their climbing in some sort of systematic way. Fun yes, a great climbing holiday place yes, some amazing routes yes but a benchmark of where you're climbing is at no. At least that's what I reckon. Anyway, Kalymnos rant over.
I think it's so easy not be honest about why you're not achieving something in climbing (assuming we're talking here about grade progression being an achievement, there are obviously many other forms of enjoyment / achievement in climbing) that you have to be pretty rigorous in seeking the real reasons. Again, maybe I over-labour this point.
You say you only get out every few weeks, are you getting indoors in between times? If no that's not enough. 3* classics are great but looking at your logbook you should be aiming for E3s on a regular basis and including more 6a stuff in there - bouldering will help immensely with trad cruxes. Perhaps there is a bit of an excuse in there or rather not an excuse just bad tactics i.e. I want to improve but I'm sticking with classics within my grade?
As with most things it is a bit of a balance however and, if it's winter, and you want to enjoy limited days out then getting on stuff you're really keen for is great.
Apologies for any criticisms, none intended, just an effort to spark some good self-questioning.
> (In reply to ksjs) I feel I have just had a ticking off from you.
I wasn't at my most positive when I wrote that - sorry! Also, I'm sure I'm not right in everything I say but I guess it feels true for me.
The whole Kalymnos thing gets to me a bit - a large percentage of the grades simply aren't at their grade and it doesn't really help anyone who's trying to progress their climbing in some sort of systematic way. Fun yes, a great climbing holiday place yes, some amazing routes yes but a benchmark of where you're climbing is at no. At least that's what I reckon. Anyway, Kalymnos rant over.
I think it's so easy not be honest about why you're not achieving something in climbing (assuming we're talking here about grade progression being an achievement, there are obviously many other forms of enjoyment / achievement in climbing) that you have to be pretty rigorous in seeking the real reasons. Again, maybe I over-labour this point.
You say you only get out every few weeks, are you getting indoors in between times? If no that's not enough. 3* classics are great but looking at your logbook you should be aiming for E3s on a regular basis and including more 6a stuff in there - bouldering will help immensely with trad cruxes. Perhaps there is a bit of an excuse in there or rather not an excuse just bad tactics i.e. I want to improve but I'm sticking with classics within my grade?
As with most things it is a bit of a balance however and, if it's winter, and you want to enjoy limited days out then getting on stuff you're really keen for is great.
Apologies for any criticisms, none intended, just an effort to spark some good self-questioning.
In reply to ksjs: PS: Further to Jon's post above I should add I made some fairly significant work / life decisions to allow me more time to climb. Maybe there's more in this than I realise? Basically the more time you have the better? As Jon says there's no real mystery in there.
Mind you there are some fairly disciplined people out there (full-time jobs, kids etc) and they're knocking out some good work.
Mind you there are some fairly disciplined people out there (full-time jobs, kids etc) and they're knocking out some good work.
In reply to ksjs:
I don't think having lots of time is always the answer. When you are on a road trip you have so much time you loose the sense of urgency and so don't push in the same way. It's great at racking up mileage and experience but it's amazing how a time constraint makes you more disciplined and productive.
I've met climbers who have the full list of responsibilities (job, family, mortgage) and they crank hard. They can only make time to fit in the odd session here and there but because of that they're don't faff around at the crag and always want to push it. At the end of the day you progress by getting on something which is beyond your current limit. That's mentally hard to do 5 days a week....
> (In reply to ksjs) PS: Further to Jon's post above I should add I made some fairly significant work / life decisions to allow me more time to climb. Maybe there's more in this than I realise? Basically the more time you have the better? As Jon says there's no real mystery in there.
>
> Mind you there are some fairly disciplined people out there (full-time jobs, kids etc) and they're knocking out some good work.
>
> Mind you there are some fairly disciplined people out there (full-time jobs, kids etc) and they're knocking out some good work.
I don't think having lots of time is always the answer. When you are on a road trip you have so much time you loose the sense of urgency and so don't push in the same way. It's great at racking up mileage and experience but it's amazing how a time constraint makes you more disciplined and productive.
I've met climbers who have the full list of responsibilities (job, family, mortgage) and they crank hard. They can only make time to fit in the odd session here and there but because of that they're don't faff around at the crag and always want to push it. At the end of the day you progress by getting on something which is beyond your current limit. That's mentally hard to do 5 days a week....
In reply to Phill Mitch: I have - I put it down to cheap loo roll.
In reply to Phill Mitch: Cheers Phill - will get on the Brush Off soon as!
In reply to ksjs:No need to say sorry, I like the honesty of your words with no malice intended, or taken.
The Kalymnos thing is strange, first time there I was saying that's not that grade for sure! people told me "well it is steep" I kind of see that.But climbing 7a in Kalymnos should not feel like 6b+ at Leeds wall, but it dose. It dose worry me that people who have been there are walking about saying they can climb this or that grade when they have only done it in Kalymnos.Having said that I love the place for it's features and 3d climbing like I have never seen anywhere else.Not because it's under graded.
The indoors bit is going really well. I love it. It fits in well with my busy life.Easy on a winter evening to get a good couple of hours training in. Pushed on from o/s the odd 7a, to o/s the odd 7b.That is where this thread came from as I have been stuck at the 1st for years, then doing the BMC lead ladder last winter pushed me out of my zone and helped me progress. But only indoors!I get to the wall a couple or 3 times a week.
Last but not least I love climbing and never go home unhappy.It's important to me to have fun, I am sure that's why I may not be getting the best out of myself.Having said that I do have the best feelings when I do a route harder than I ever thought I could do.
Thanks for your input, none taken, good words well received!
Cheers.
The Kalymnos thing is strange, first time there I was saying that's not that grade for sure! people told me "well it is steep" I kind of see that.But climbing 7a in Kalymnos should not feel like 6b+ at Leeds wall, but it dose. It dose worry me that people who have been there are walking about saying they can climb this or that grade when they have only done it in Kalymnos.Having said that I love the place for it's features and 3d climbing like I have never seen anywhere else.Not because it's under graded.
The indoors bit is going really well. I love it. It fits in well with my busy life.Easy on a winter evening to get a good couple of hours training in. Pushed on from o/s the odd 7a, to o/s the odd 7b.That is where this thread came from as I have been stuck at the 1st for years, then doing the BMC lead ladder last winter pushed me out of my zone and helped me progress. But only indoors!I get to the wall a couple or 3 times a week.
Last but not least I love climbing and never go home unhappy.It's important to me to have fun, I am sure that's why I may not be getting the best out of myself.Having said that I do have the best feelings when I do a route harder than I ever thought I could do.
Thanks for your input, none taken, good words well received!
Cheers.
In reply to Jon Stewart:I have a couple of days off, a week on thursday or friday if you are not doing anything. I could find stuff to do at Rivelin.
In reply to Phill Mitch: I was climbing VS for about 2 years. They felt OK but it was pretty much my limit. Then for about 2 weeks, I climbed outside every 2 days and suddenly VS was a breeze and HVS was feeling easy. Unfortunately, back to school ended that run, but i'm now looking for E1
In reply to DavidRex: I think that's probably the best way to get there. Just do loads of one grade, untill your breezing them.Then step it up.
Just had a look at your log and see they are Almscliffe HVS too! Keep at it.
My trouble is I haven't got the available leisure time to do loads.I might have to be happy with where I am, untill I have more chances to get out.
Just had a look at your log and see they are Almscliffe HVS too! Keep at it.
My trouble is I haven't got the available leisure time to do loads.I might have to be happy with where I am, untill I have more chances to get out.
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