UKC

Back in the day as they say on the other side I felt that winter VII felt like E2. Now that I am a bit wrinkly and grumpy grade V feels like VS.
Now I do know that this has been done before but my personal (general) grade comparison is thus..

I M/Easy
II D
III VD
IV S
V VS
VI HVS
VII E1/2
VIII E3/4

Any thoughts? I need some ice/mixed warriors to grade above VIII.

In reply to Blobb: i've done grade 3's that felt harder (scarier) than ANY VDiff i've done!

They simply don't translate as there are too many other variables involved in winter!

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Yes, ok, but I've backed off 2 HVS's but never found a grade IV difficult, so it works both ways.

In reply to Blobb:

I reckon III is more like Severe.

In reply to Blobb:

In reply to Blobb: I'm with you up to the grade Vs ive done as long as you compare mountain grade summer climbs in typical less than perfect nick with winter. I have generally found IV 4 feels like mountain severe but I think I find winter easier compared with summer than most climbers.

In reply to Blobb: Andy Kirkpatrick's thoughts on grade comparison here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3019&lgn=6619

In reply to KA:
AK says "Grade V is HVS and grade VI is E1"

which fits well with my experience. My hardest summer/winter leads have been HVS / V and both felt similarly desperate.

The main difference of course is that winter grades can be much more conditions-dependant. In summer if it's dry you know how hard the route will be; in winter that nice grade III could turn out to be V due to the weather a few weeks previously.

In reply to Blobb:

For the grades I usually climb:

IV VS
V HVS/E1
VI E1/E2

In reply to Toreador:
Was your hardest summer lead a mountain HVS? For me remote long multipitch mountain VS often feels as hard overall as HVS single pitch cragging. It's as much to do with the variable conditions you tend find as anything else. But the lack of traffic, exposure, commitment and also lack of mobile phone coverage all add to it!

In reply to Toreador:

I simply can't imagine being able to get up mixed V,6 if I only climbed HVS in summer! My conviction that I am unbelievably bad at winter climbibg is confirmed......

In reply to CurlyStevo:

In the UK, it is a single pitch mountain route. I've also done a multi pitch trad 5+ in the Picos where the crux pitch was probably HVS.


I've not done a huge amount of either, but in general I find mountain VS easier than VS cragging. I suspect this is because I'm more at home on mountain rock types than on gritstone, despite climbing far more of the latter!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I've only done one route graded V, and that was ice. I've done a fair few graded III or IV which people better and more experienced than me have said were V 4 or V 5 in the conditions we found.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I can and I do. My conviction that I am unbelievably bad at summer climbing is confirmed .....

In reply to Blobb:

The majority of people I know who climb E3 winter climb about VI, but they'd probably climb harder in winter if they did as much of it as summer climbing. I reckon E5 is about VIII (I've never done an VIII though...).

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Maybe you are just brilliant at winter climbing (much more likely I think!)

Actually, I find V about E3 (hard) VI about E4 (Getting near my limit), so, hypothetically (since I've never done one) VII about E5, which makes sense (really pulling the stops out, on my sort of route, with the wind behind me......). Extrapolating: VIII = E6, VIII = E7, IX = E8. Now I think IX and E8 represent state of the art on sighting in winter and summer. So I am right! QED! I'm not rubbish after all!

In reply to Robert Durran:
But if you're going to extrapolate then that must mean that grade I is about VS

In reply to Blobb: i would agree with the ops thoughts,

i generally find that V= HVS, VI=E1 VII=E2, I lead most of a VII a few weeks after my first e2 and they felt pretty similar in terms of technical difficulty, exposure and seriousness.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Maybe I just need to get out more.......

In reply to Blobb: I would say from experience:
IV=HVS
V=E1
VI=E2

But that doesn't tell the whole story, my view takes account of the fact winter climbing tends to be more serious and run out than summer climbing. Also winter routes are generally always on-sight leads.
Sometimes it is difficult to compare, as winter route grades are very conditions dependant. I have done grade III routes that felt like the living end(lake district grades!).

In reply to Robert Durran:
I've clean seconded on sight (OS) VII (labyrynth direct), probably soft on the day but still solid VI, no way could I second E5, not any of them, I'll go as far as saying it's highly unlikely I'll get up any E4 second on sight. I generally struggle to get up E2 5c on second clean.

In reply to Martin Haworth:
Ofcourse it's hard to compare as winter varies so much, and tends to be bolder but less tenuous on the low to mid grades.

I think if you look at IV 4 and the most technical moves you've typically done at that grade, if you were winter climbing and summer climbing the same amount 4b rock moves would in general be pumpier and more technical. I think IV 4 mixed is usually no more technical than summer 4a, usually less, especially on ice, but can be much more run out. I tend to see IV 4 as equivalent to S4c, or HS 4a, that sort of level.

In reply to CurlyStevo: Other than the fact that your climbing in often cold stormy conditions, the biggest difference to me is that you really don't want to fall off a winter route.

V,4 feels like E1, 4c
V,5 feels like E1, 5a
V,6 feels like E1, 5b

(In "normal" conditions)

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I perhaps should have made it clearer that I was really only talking about mixed/snowed up rock, where comparisons are more meaningful (or should that be less meaningless!). Yes, a classic V ice route might only be only like a bold VS. I am sure I could second Labyrinth Direct, but then I could easily second an E5 5c but be very reluctant to lead it.

In reply to Martin Haworth:
I think living in Scotland helped a lot, I was climbing winter most weekends of the winter for 5 seasons on the trot. It certainly made winter become more normal and less different.

That said I think I just climb better on big juggy handles and crampons than I do on smears and crimps.

I'm sure now I live down south again the winter climbing will start getting comparitively harder again.

I was thinking when I was last up The Runnel in bomber neve all the way to the top with not a single bit of soft snow, how as a II it feels way way way more serious than a easy II ridge, where a fall would be pretty long.

In reply to Robert Durran: You are rubbish at somethings, you have made a mistake and put VIII= E6 and VIII= E7.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Ooops! Should have been IX = E7.
If anything this strengthens my case though.

In reply to Blobb: this is all very interesting, but 'Centurion' on the Ben is a summer HVS yet gets VIII in winter. So, going by what people are saying here, it should be either V/VI or E3/4. No?

In reply to Martin Haworth: Some popular route examples for discussion:

The Message IV,6 feels like HVS, 5b
Orion Face Direct V,4 feels like E1, 4c

In reply to Blobb: i've always found it a bit like chalk and cheese, and to be honest never really made the comparison - even on mixed.

I think it depends on the individual - some people are better on rock than ice, and visa versa.

I've climbed with people who struggle on E1's, yet can float up a V1 as though it was a Diff. On the same score, I've seen people who cruise E4 wobble like a 'good-un' on a III.

Personally, I find hard rock easier than hard ice, yet hard mixed not to bad at all.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Yeah I agree ice is generally easier for the grade, I think partly this is because of the advancement in modern tools and protection, some of the ice climbs could probably do with a bit of grade adjustment to account for this.

I think a lot of people over estimate the risk on ice. I think screws are less predictably good than rock gear (a visually good screw is more likely to fail at a low force than with rock gear, but this is still quite rare) but in other ways they are very consistent.

Fat ice in good condition, the protection is pretty reliable and evenly spaced, the gear can't lift out. Also the medium can be pretty predictable to climb. Retreat or resting is also often a possibility.

In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:

You have, I think, completely missed what this discussion is about.

In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:

No. The discussion as I understand it is about how hard rock/winter grades feel. It's not comparing summer/winter grades on the same route.

In reply to Martin Haworth:
I think this discussion is accademic, we are all saying how hard stuff felt subjectively to us and the only measuring stick we have is against the hardest stuff we've done.

I think most the people who are saying winter grades are comparitively difficult probably climb much more rock than ice. Whilst I was living in Scoland I didn't rock climb in the winter (or winter climb in the summer so I got to have a fairly rounded view of the two disciplines which I guess is why I tend to see winter grades as comparatively easier than most people.

One other thing, I used to be quite keen on booking days off work to make the most of the best condtions and weather, and I got quite profficient at guessing where the better conditions would be, so I guess I may have climbed a lot of my routes in above average nick!

In reply to Blobb: i usually think anything up to IV is scrambling sort of stuff so not much harder than diff and then V as severe etc.

In reply to naffan: did you find The Lamp equivalent to a severe?

In reply to naffan:

I failed on a IV last Sunday (admttedly in icy condtions making the climbing no easier and the protection tricky). To describe it as scrambling would be ridiculous. Seemed E3 5b or even E4 maybe on the day.

(ps Resulting swag (rock 8 and krab) on Yukon Jack in Sneachda if anyone's interested in tidying up)

In reply to naffan:

I seem to recall an incident where axes and gear were left behind on a well-known 'Severe' in Coire an Lochain last year...

In reply to Robert Durran:


When I lived in Scotland I went from climbing I to V,6 over four seasons. By the time I was doing V,6 I had done one or two single pitch E1s, and I did more V,6s than I did E1s, so I guess I for me V,6 is about E0. We did one V,6 that got upgraded later to VI,6 and the crux on that was about 5b!

I'm sure there are plenty of E3s where I would just get shut down by the crux, so I'm surprised by your comparison - but it is such a personal thing. Some people claim leading 10 mtrs of vertical ice (and I do mean vertical) feels like F5+, whilst for me it feels like a life and death struggle!

In reply to Robert Durran: yukon jack, thinner than a thin thing

In reply to CurlyStevo:


On water ice I agree with your point, although falling decent distances in crampons never seems a great idea, even though I belayed people who have done it with no ill effects! But thinking of routes I've done on the Ben, whilst say the Cascade feels quite continental and the screws were good, I don't remember thinking that any of the screws we used on Green were any good at all - and there weren't that many of them in the first place.

In reply to TobyA:
yes I should have said water ice. There's a big difference between water ice and snow ice, green can vary quite a bit between the two (not sure why this is, perhaps it only forms as water ice when it's from frozen melt water)

I'd alse very much agree that falling off with crampons on is a bit of a lottery on your ankles! But surely that risk holds for mixed climbing as well as ice.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

I'd agree generally with the above but would say I think V,4 is often a bit softer than the other two. So more like HVS 4c?

In reply to Robert Durran:

With thick ice or neve on the slab it's OK but without which is more common it's hard to climb and protect. As far as I'm led to believe or have seen a number of guides (and good climbers) on assessment have failed or have fallen off Yukon!!!

In reply to Michael Gordon:
I personally think winter climbing under tech 4 just isn't very technical.

Comparing, boldness, commitment, technicality, strenuousness and pump factor my take is:

Grade I without a problematic cornice, lots of not very experienced people solo this, rarely harder than grade 2 scrambling.

Grade II still lots of people solo this grade as it's sufficiently easy a rope isn't required, rarely harder than Mod.

Grade III still a few people soloing this grade just because they don't see a rope as necessary and not because they have lots of grades in hand. Rarely harder than VDiff unless it has a harder tech grade than 3, in which case it can just about push as hard as Severe.

So where does that leave IV ? if you think V,5 is E1 5a, grade IV is a massively wide grade band as it needs to go up to HVS 4c (to match your V,4) which I just don't think it is.

If you think about it there are only 12 winter grades whilst summer grades including scrambling there is about 20 (taking a mod and scrambling 3 as equal), so 1.66 summer grades per winter grade.

Using that scale grade V should take you from the easiest VS to just above mid grade HVS and grade IV would take you from mid grade S to the hardest HS, pretty much in line with what I think for IV.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

So if the coefficient of IV is S+x where x and there's a problematic cornice...should I go leashless?

In reply to Andy Moles:

Only with your left tool.

In reply to Andy Moles:

But leashless is cheating; it reduces everything up to VI to mere scrambling.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Probably. But a lot of people under estimate it, believing that ice screws will always hold a fall.

In reply to Andy Moles:

depends on where you keep your sandwiches

In reply to mux:
bah

In reply to CurlyStevo: man you talk mince!

ignore grades I and II, should never be a winter grade, mere scrambling or steep walking.

what I find amusing and somewhat sad is that grade IV has become a joke of a grade which the bumbliest of punters can climb, why did this become so? Grade IVs where generally feckin desperate in the old system, apart from the long gully plods.

in comparing winter grades to summer its only really worthwhile with the tech grades,

with leashes this could be close

4a/4b - tech 3
4c - tech 4
5a tech 5
5b/5c tech 6
5c/6a tech 7
etc etc

also, great difference in rock types/styles, some folk suited to steep burly hooky stuff, others to blank slopey thin hell

leashless drop a summer tech grade down one

as for overall grades, I have no idea as ive had this argument before, but generally it seems now that the unwritten rule is that overall grade follows the tech grade like in summer

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I think soloing grade II feels a fair bit harder than summer scrambling (Mod).

In reply to Erik B:
As mentioned this is obviously all subjective. Personally I don't find tech 3 anything like 4a/4b. There's plenty of others out there that will agree. Look At Alex Roddie for example he solo's grade III but is(/was at the time) far from comfortable leading above VDiff with a rope on in summer.

Don't get me wrong I'm not belittling grade IV, however in general I just personaly find in average conditions mountain VS harder.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Quite a few moderate ridges are grade II in winter. I think most would say these routes are harder and more serious undertakings in winter than summer.

In reply to Michael Gordon:
To you perhaps. And yes I can think of cases in point like curved ridge which does feel harder than many Mods, but what about raeburns easy or ledge route or crotched gully, these are easier than stuff like afterthought arete or serated rib. Final Selection at Diff is harder than most/nearly all the grade II's I've done IMO.

In reply to Michael Gordon:
not all climbs get much harder in winter, for example I think the man trap on NE butress is actually easier with axes also the last section of fingers ridge isn't any harder with axes. I think a lot of Mod climbs go to grade III when covered in snow. VDiff/Severe often gets grade V.

In reply to CurlyStevo: To be fair Ledge Route and Crotched Gully are both more like I/II. As you say though it's a matter of opinion. I just think of grade II as climbing (albeit easy) rather than scrambling.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

That wall is often the crux and tech 4 - somewhat harder than Diff I'd say.

In reply to Erik B: I would agree with your grades. I also think there has been some grade creep in overall grades, on some routes with good reason.
I did Boomers Requiem last year which apparently use to be considered benchmark IV. It was in reasonable condition and I think it was worth V/VI, 6.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I find that last section harder than Diff anyway personally, I didn't find it easy in summer. The reason I didn't find it harder in winter is that there are lots of really good hooks in thin cracks for your axes and the foot holds are small but positive so perfect for crampon points.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Again there is really sense in confusing the issue trying to use the same argument for relatively serious but technically straightforward snow/ice and generally well protected but technically harder mixed/snowed up rock.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Don't think so. Have soloed many a grade V and VI but have rarely climbed E3/4 let along solo one, although did solo Artless once which is now give E5 does that mean I can climb grade VIII

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Did Boomers once solo at about IV and certainly thought easier than Raeburns Buttress/Intermediate Gully to the right on the lead

In reply to Erik B:

Spot on.


Some (quite a lot actually) still are! I hope a bumbly punter wouldn't have got up Yukon Jack last Sunday. Otherwise I have descended into sub bumbly punterdom.....

Probably easier to do so, but less fun.


Spot on again.


I suspect a strong rock climber will be suited to the burly hooky stuff, whereas a mad, perverse, weak winter specialist will get on better on the slopey hell.


Not sure. I think of standard, safe E2 as 5c, and standard, safe V as 6, giving, using your tech comparisons, gives V as about E2, which seems reasonable to me.

In reply to CurlyStevo: that mod climbs are III in winter is irellevant, you dont get it and as a result are throwing the thread off track. Technical 3 snowed up verglassed rock is a similar difficulty to 4a/4b, not many jeffries get benighted and carried off by the chopper from the little tower or gap in summer. please think about it and what this thread is actually about

In reply to Robert Durran: i think of safe short sections of tech 6 as IV 6, sustained safe tech 6 as V 6, problem is folk have started using eg VI 6 for sustained tech 6 climbing (apply this to other higher grades) but ive allready been down this route, so aint going there again! lol

Bonjour! as Del Boy would say

In reply to Erik B:

Agree

In reply to Erik B:
"> (In reply to CurlyStevo) that mod climbs are III in winter is irellevant"

It's relevent to the discussion I was having with Michael, he brought this comparisson up so feel free to continue the discussion with him, but yes I agree it's not particularly relevent to the overall discussion.

"Technical 3 snowed up verglassed rock is a similar difficulty to 4a/4b.... please think about it and what this thread is actually about"

I find my subjective experience is different to yours, what about that is so hard for you to comprehend? Do you not like people disagreeing with you or something, if so I suggest a different forum

In reply to Blobb: I still stand by my comment. If anyone used crampons and ice axes as much as hands and rock shoes the V would feel like severe

In reply to naffan: so why are you not climbing grade IX then? thats only HVS in your book

In reply to Erik B:

I tend to think of:

IV,6 as a bit like HVS 5b,
V,6 as a bit like E1 5b
VI,6 as a bit like E2 5b (which of course can be very sustained and safe, or bold but not as sustained etc)

In reply to Erik B: becasue i dont use my crampons that much.

In reply to Erik B:

By the cow rather than the plateful...

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Strange...last year you were advocating that a fall from Alladins Mirror Direct would merely be a simple slide to the corrie flair!

In reply to the weegy: Who thinks Curly Stevo's a nood book?

In reply to the weegy: www.totalwalloperandabore.com

In reply to stevecurly: ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

In reply to Erik B: Bunch of lightweight fannies the lot of yer sweet dreams :p

In reply to the weegy: And I seem to remember at the time you mentioning you were in to Coprophagia but we'll let bygones be bygones hey?

In reply to CurlyStevo: Absolutely, but I'd much rather eat jobeez than talk it!

In reply to Robert Durran:


It's possible even for a VS leader, but I have to be very psyched!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Add your name to a long list of scalps taken by Yukon Jack; probably not IV,5 in the conventional sense...

In reply to the weegy: adam ondra wid shite it at scottish tech 5, I am so respectful of guys like curlystevo, he should get on a Coe V...

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

In the traditional sense then..........?!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

....and stop trying to make me feel better about myself - I am rubbish.