UKC

What are the views of the UKC massive on the above?

Daughter and heir to the StG overdraft will have the choice of two grammar schools IF she passes her 11+. I have completely mixed views. I think it's practically a given that academically it's preferable to go for the girls-only school. The question is whether the other issues outweigh this benefit.

Any views gratefully received.

Thanks in advance )

In reply to Submit to Gravity: Well she'll probably be a bit later to the cock, which may be advantageous in your eyes.

In reply to Removed User: When I said "Any views gratefully received" I was imagining people would filter that through the understanding that I was talking about my 10 year old daughter.

In reply to Removed User: But yes, that would be advantageous...

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

I'd not be so sure - my daughter went to a single sex primary but we moved her to a mixed sex school for secondary.

The all girls school was very supportive and nurturing and an all round good environment in primary but it had a few major issues for secondary:

1. Secondaries need to have enough kids to support good teaching in a large number of subjects. Getting enough pupils can be a challenge for girls only schools because they appeal to all-girl families and that is only about 1/4 of all families.

2. All girl secondary schools can get a bit weird - cliques and generally bitchy behaviour. Also girls that don't see boys at school may obsess about them because they don't realise how generally unpleasant and smelly adolescent boys are. From what I saw there was more of a boy problem among my daughter's friends that stayed in the all girls school than her new friends in the mixed school.

3. All girls schools are attractive to people that require all girl education for religious reasons. That can be a problem if you want your daughters brought up with a secular world view.

In reply to Submit to Gravity: I am in exactly the same boat with my 10 yr old (tomboy) who flatly refuses to consider going to the girls only Grammar. I've said it is ultimately her decision where she goes but that she should still work her backside off to get the 11+ so that she has her options open.

Her other option is a large mixed high school that effectively runs three ability streams so she'd get close to the intensity of the grammar stream. We're getting close to agreeing to give the Grammar a go for a year. The main issue for her is whether she has to wear a skirt!

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

does it have ties to a equivalent boys school?

In reply to Submit to Gravity: Not sure where you live but all girl schools in London are heavily weighted to Muslim girls (obvious religious reasons) and they have a big problem with cliques/gangs and bullying.

In reply to Submit to Gravity: My cousin went to a girls school and was totally boy mad, I think due to not seeing the full picture, she only saw the attraction and not the normal day to day realities of boys being, well, people.

I thought that studies had shown that academic advantages of single sex education were due to having a better cohort, rather than anything else?

Personally I think I did better at Science and Maths in a mixed school, the boys in my class really hated it when a girl did better than them

In reply to Removed User:

Working in a mixed secondary it's all they seem to be bothered about from about 13 onwards.

There are definitely benefits to single sex schools in lots of ways, but particularly academic.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

most points have been put above. Main thing to add - I've spoken to lots of people from mixed schools and not one has said "I wish I'd gone to a single sex school". I have spoken to lots of people that went to single sex schools and the majority have said "I wish I'd gone to a mixed school"

In reply to Submit to Gravity: Thanks to all for the responses so far. Plenty of food for thought...

In reply to Submit to Gravity:
I went to an all boys catholic grammar school for the first few years of my secondary school career and it was way better then the mixed comp school i finished my secondary education at. I enjoyed the single sex school way more then the mixed school because the level of teaching was better and because it was a grammar it had less knob heads in it.

I don't think that being at a single sex school makes a great deal of difference, especially in the first few years. In my opinion you should choose the school based on it's accademic qualities only.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

I don't have kids so probably don't have enough perspective to post but when I was younger we would regularly go to parties and events that a couple of girls would put on from the all girls school in the area and compared to the girls in our school they were all nuts! As a 16 year old boy I loved it, as a parent I don't think I would!!

They seemed to be obsessed not necessarily with boys but just misbehaving in general. All of them would drink lots, smoke lots (not just fags!) and generally act out whenever they could.

I think a mixed school gives kids a chance to form balanced opinions because they see the best and worst of people. This is normally a good thing, protecting kids from something just ignites curiosity and gives them a skewed perspective!

Just my opinion for what it's worth.
Chris

In reply to Submit to Gravity: http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=2256598

In reply to doz generale:

Sorry, don't agree with that at all. I went to a single sex grammar school and really, wouldn't wish it on anyone. Academic life may be important, but it's not the only thing.

Would you like to work in a single sex workplace? Even if you're not single, would your really like to spend the majority of your daytime with people only of your own sex? Crazy.

In reply to Tiberius:

Your experience is of a single sex school and you don't have experience of mixed schools.
I was talking from my own experience and i enjoyed the single sex school more then the mixed schools i went to because it was a better school with better teachers, better students and a better ethos. I think that when choosing a school for your kids the academic qualities should be more important than wether or not it's a single sex school. Also Boys and girls develop physically at different rates so for half of your secondary school life the boys are running round pretending to be leopards while the girls are down the pub with their older boyfriends.

Yes as a grown up it's better to be in a mixed environment but in school a single sex environment has it's benefits.

Not saying it's always best just that it shouldnt be the defining reason for choosing a school

In reply to doz generale:

academic results in a school are based on many things, including the ability of those they get to teach. In my experience being able to pick the cream of the crop at 11 does seem to lead to better results overall at 16/18.
That doesn't necessarily mean that those schools have better teachers though. It can just mean the kids they got were more inclined and better prepared to do well where ever they were.

While I'm not saying performance isn't important, it's not always as simple as "go to the school with best performance and you'll get the best grades"

In reply to doz generale:

On balance, pretending to be a leopard sounds much more fun.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Just ask where the schools are with regard to a classical education. If you want a well rounded child who can fit in to society then go for the one that claims more of a classical education.
The liberal arts result in the ability to learn rather than just the ability to regurgitate.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:
Groups of girls, particularly teenage girls are bitchy, backstabbing, and unpleasant! I spent most of my teenage years hanging around with guys as they just went out to play on bikes and got on with life.
I had friends that went to the local girls school, and all the girls there were easy. It was well known that lads from our school would go to certain parties as they knew they would pull one of the girls from the girls school.

In reply to EZ: Seconded - even though I am a scientist about to finish a deeply technical PhD, with the usual clutch of science A-levels (OK, IB subjects...).

In retrospect the most valuable education that I had from school was not the science, nor even the climbing club that got me into mountaineering, but the "classical" parts; being taught to think is probably more important, both career-wise (interviews &c) and in terms of life skills than mere technical knowledge.

I will leave wiser heads to comment on the social aspects!

In reply to Submit to Gravity: I work with mostly pretty good schools, some same sex, some mixed.

It's really difficult to generalise and comes down to the school itself rather than the pupils. I see same sex schools that "produce" great kids, but just as many that don't, and the same with mixed.

I went to an all boys school and I'm glad I did, otherwise I wouldn't have concentrated so much... We, like most same sex schools had ties with a local girls school, with a few classes mixed in the sixth form and some social stuff too.

In reply to Tiberius:

You dont work in the construction industry I guess

In reply to jezb1:

I think this highlights my personal experience of an all-boys school (apart from the girls that joined in the sixth form) and those of my female friends. Single-sex education tends to be an advantage for boys, but a disadvantage to girls. Unfortunately, putting boys in a single-sex environment is incompatible with putting girls in a mixed environment!

In reply to Submit to Gravity: It's easy, make your judgement on the quality of the schools, not arbitrary views and opinions, however honestly held on the merits of single versus mixed-sex education. I dare say you will have a gut feeling when you enter the schools based on what you think a good school should be. For some it is purely academia, for others the pastoral ethos is more important, for others it is sport, or business or arts.
If you have a bright girl, she will do well at either. You cannot make a bright kid not as bright by sending them to the 'wrong' school; quality will always out.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

What your would your daughter prefer?

I can't imagine anything worse than a school full of girls and hormones

In reply to doz generale:


First you say choose the school only on academic qualities, then you go on about ethos, teachers and students.


Now we're back to academic qualities? Which one/s is it? Your argument is disjointed and confusing.


? People do develop at different rates, however on the whole boys and girls at this age tend to date people within on or two years of their own age. In his entire time at secondary school my son only once 'dated' a girl who was more than one year different, and that only lasted a couple of weeks before the age difference proved just too much.


And disadvantages. In my experience (yes, actually I do have some ) the disadvantages outweigh the advantages when considering the output as a balanced human being capable of dealing with all components of society. This generally translates into better job prospects in the real world workplace.

In reply to Submit to Gravity: I have one daughter at the end of her first year at an all girls grammar and she loves it. We've been in tonight for the open evening as her Y5 sister will hopefully go there too.

The school (Skipton Girls') is virtually next door to the boys' grammar and they hang out before and after school, so they're not exactly isolated from one another. The girls' school have a bit of a mission to challenge gender stereotypes so they're an engineering specialist school and tend to push the less "girly" subjects like ICT, physics etc.

They don't appear to have much of a clique problem (maybe she's too young for that yet) and based on my observations of her mates and other kids there they seem to churn out well-rounded, confident girls who also get some pretty good results. At her age our daughter would far, far rather be at a girls' school - that may of course change...

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

I went to single sex boarding school, and also mixed regular school.

All up, I'd suggest mixed. I'm not sure what impact isolating a group from the opposite gender has, but I'd not imagine it to be conducive to having healthy relationships later on.

Also, grades aren't that important. Being the smartest person in the room isn't nearly as good as being the happiest person in the room.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Have you got the choice of single sex or mixed grammars? Rockovamonkey wanted to go to the mixed grammar round our way and I was more than happy with that. Academically, the single sex grammars in our district get slightly better results in GCSE tables, but only slightly. I think good mixed schools generally turn out well rounded individuals, gives both sexes the opportunity to understand each other better and particularly gives girls the opportunity to realise early on that boys are mostly football obsessed buffoons that smell.

In reply to teflonpete:

I resent the mention of football.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:
While I'm sure there are solid academic reasons for single sex education I'm not convinced of the social benefits. I'm sure a lot of people who went to university from a mixed comprehensive background witnessed the carnage that is "Sheltered young ladies getting their first taste of boys and freedom". It seemed that people who'd had a mixed education went to university slightly better prepared and were less likely to end up in a bit of a mess.

In reply to Mad Tommy:

Is that really the case? I went to a single-sex, non-religious high school and even with its good reputation I think, socially, those of us who came out compare poorly with those who went to the nearby co-ed.

Better rounded individuals should surely be the result of an education environment with as little segregation as possible?

In reply to David Martin:


From my (limited) experience, I think this is true. However, it is worth noting that we did have a co-ed 6th form, so girls weren't an entirely unknown species. Perhaps we had already gained the advantage bestowed by single-sex education by then, and those final 2-3 years dealt with the social side of maturing. Of course, my friends might disagree...

In reply to andy:

Mr TC's daughter will be sitting the exam for there in September too - it does seem to be the school of choice round here!

In reply to Submit to Gravity: Sisters and I attended neighbouring boys' and girls' grammar schools. Boys left with no common sense, and girls were overly keen on what your first response notes your daughter will miss out on.

Mixed must make sense.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

better a "bit of a mess" at 18 than at 13 ?

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

I went to an all boys' school from the age of 8. There was a girls' division on the same campus, but we were segregated in an academic sense until sixth form. Social interaction was limited until about 5th form upwards (don't know what that translates to in new money).

I really enjoyed it and think my education and personal development benefitted from it.

However, it's way too easy to generalise. I know great people and also messed up idiots that went to both mixed schools and single sex schools. There's no formula, but I know it didn't do me any harm.

If it were my child, I'd go off gut feel, local feedback and most importantly what your daughter wants.

Best of luck deciding; it’s a tough call.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Definitely go to a mixed school. I consider segregating sexes during the very years they develop all social skills unnatural, antiquated and generally sickening. I feel pretty crippled by going to an all boys secondary, ten years on and I still dribble like a moron when I want to talk to a girl I actually like. Any academic difference must be miniscule, there is a lot more to life than whether you get 10 A*s or 9 A*s and an A at GCSEs

In reply to andy:
Ha, I went to that school (albeit a while back)! Completely agree that having a boys school next door solves much of the socialisation issues. Different situation to the OP as it was the only grammar school - not a choice between mixed or single sex. Going to an all-girls can be a bit annoying when you are at that age, but at least you can focus more in the classroom and worry about the rest of your life outside :P

So basically, shrugs either way, pick on other issues.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Not really any evidence that pupils do better in single-sex schools (see the example of the TES article quoted earlier, or indeed the many countries that do well with mixed schools, such as everyone's current educational wet dream, Finland).

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Apologies - not read the whole thread - but from my own experience on an all girls secondary school, I would actively avoid sending my children to single sex schools.

400+ girls in one place leads to extreme bitchiness, cliques, competitiveness and extreme pressure to conform. I really struggled, was pretty miserable, was quite screwed up by my late teens and have no lasting friends from school. Most of my lasting friends from 11 onwards are from outside school (and mostly guys!). I did do well academically - but I'm fairly sure I would have done at any other grammar / private school.

This was just my experience, but I would say the academic advantage (if there really is one) doesn't outweigh the social / peer pressure issues.

Only from my own experience, and I'm sure there are many who would feel otherwise!

In reply to Submit to Gravity: Thanks to everyone for the replies - I've been reading with interest!

It seems pretty academic now (pardon the pun) - we've been to see the mixed grammar school tonight and are all absolutely blown away by it. The admission criteria are lower too, so she has more chance of getting in.

Once again, thanks for the replies - much appreciated )))

In reply to trouserburp:

I don't think that phenomenon is restricted to those who went to single-sex schools!

In reply to Tall Clare:

I really like it - the buildings are a bit crap and the sports facilities are dreadful, but I've not seen any evidence of bitchiness, and our eldest hasn't seen anything in nearly a year. They have what seems a really good system with tutor groups where they're a "vertical" slice through the school so right from Y7 they mix with girls from right the way up to U6th - who also run things like sports clubs, music groups etc, so there seems to be far less intra-year segregation than when I was a lad, when only the coolest of the cool hung out with the year above. Whereas our has mates from Y8 and 9 who are in her tutor group.

Interesting chat from them on the new admissions thing last night - the governors are apparently "committed" to maximising the number of in-area girls they take - but as in-area has struggled to hit 50% in recent years they might have a bit of a job on. The decision to make it opt-in for local kids hasn't made any difference at Embsay though - all the girls are doing the exam.

In reply to andy:

Does that last bit mean that kids in the area are more likely to get in? Mr TC's ex was at the thing last night, I believe. I guess for us the tricky bit is that whilst Little Miss TC lives with us half the time, she lives in Bingley the other half, and goes to school there. She's been doing lots of revision though...

In reply to Tall Clare: Kids in the local area will always get in if they reach the standard (which is the bit they're not able to confirm - it used to be the top 28% of in-area kids set the pass mark). They can't confirm it because they don't know how many local kids will sit the test as it's now opt-in.

If they have 112 local kids that reach "the standard" then no out of area kids will get in. I suspect it'll be fairly similar to the usual 55-60 and then they'll fill up on out of area kids, who they prioritise on distance from the school, after they've done sisters and kids in care etc. This has in the past been as far out as Burley-in-Wharfedale, but has been a lot closer depending on how many local girls get in. The "principal residence" is the one that counts, and that's where they spend most time Sunday to Thursday.

In reply to Tall Clare: Should have said - they've always given priority to kids in the area (which is such a weird shape it couldn't be called "local" - it goes as far north as Oughtershaw and Cray, but stops before Cononley in the south!

In reply to andy:

Guess we'll just have to keep fingers crossed... Her brother will sit the exam for Ermysteds when his time comes too.

In reply to andy:

You'd hope they would - I've heard bonkers stories of people renting bedsits in Skipton to try to give their kids a leg up at SGH and Ermysteds...

In reply to Tall Clare: The irony is the passmark in Skipton gets driven up by people having their kids tutored thinking they have to compete for places with privately educated kids from Ilkley etc who are prepared for the exam, as the NYCC schools are expressly forbidden from doing any preparation. In reality out of area kids have no effect on the passmark. In Ripon the passmark for the same exam is consistently lower because it's smaller and further away from anywhere - meaning the proportion of local children is nearer 95% than the Ermy's proportion which is often well under half, and SGHS which is usually only just over 50%.

Still, at least our daughter's got a couple of posh mates from Ilkley now so maybe they'll take her skiing or something...