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My climbing partner and I are planning on doing as many single pitch roped HS-E1 trad routes as we can in a day soon at Shorn Cliff (so generally tree/rap ring belays at the top, leader lowers second, drops rope(s) and abs). I reckon 20+ is a reasonable target.
I think we are well organised for it, but I'd be interested to hear any suggestions people have for how to go as fast as possible, preferably tips that aren't obvious ones like climb quickly, run it out...
I think we are well organised for it, but I'd be interested to hear any suggestions people have for how to go as fast as possible, preferably tips that aren't obvious ones like climb quickly, run it out...
In reply to ericinbristol:
Maybe you could clove hitch a locking krab onto the rope(s) just above your figure of 8 (other tie-in knots are available)? This would save faff when setting up your belays, you'd just need to select suitable anchors, clip in, and adjust the length. I don't know if this is necessarily safe, e.g. there may be potential for tangling.
Maybe you could clove hitch a locking krab onto the rope(s) just above your figure of 8 (other tie-in knots are available)? This would save faff when setting up your belays, you'd just need to select suitable anchors, clip in, and adjust the length. I don't know if this is necessarily safe, e.g. there may be potential for tangling.
In reply to ericinbristol:
This assumes you rack your draws with the gate facing out.
As the second strips the route, clip the draws to harness in their preferred position with the wire on the outside. When you get to the top you just unclip the wire and rack it rather than taking the draw off and repositioning it. Saves a few seconds.
Snack whilst belaying rather than stopping for lunch?
Wear comfy shoes.
Take a dedicated ab rope and leave in place, centrally if possible.
If there are big blocks or trees at the top use a direct belay with either an italian hitch or 'magic plate'.
Whilst belaying the second leader strips rack off harness and leaves it lying neatly or clipped to sling for second.
Don't ever be doing nothing. If your partner is racking up you can be sorting ropes or whatever.
This assumes you rack your draws with the gate facing out.
As the second strips the route, clip the draws to harness in their preferred position with the wire on the outside. When you get to the top you just unclip the wire and rack it rather than taking the draw off and repositioning it. Saves a few seconds.
Snack whilst belaying rather than stopping for lunch?
Wear comfy shoes.
Take a dedicated ab rope and leave in place, centrally if possible.
If there are big blocks or trees at the top use a direct belay with either an italian hitch or 'magic plate'.
Whilst belaying the second leader strips rack off harness and leaves it lying neatly or clipped to sling for second.
Don't ever be doing nothing. If your partner is racking up you can be sorting ropes or whatever.
In reply to verygneiss:
Interesting idea. I think the quickest alternative would be to leave a screwgate on the belay loop of the harness the whole day to save taking it off the rope at the end of every pitch for the ab.
Interesting idea. I think the quickest alternative would be to leave a screwgate on the belay loop of the harness the whole day to save taking it off the rope at the end of every pitch for the ab.
In reply to verygneiss:
More faff than it's worth I reckon. It would be a pain and potentially dangerous when clipping runners.
A better alternative might be to larks foot a sling through your belay loop or legloop and waist belt, wrap it round your body and clip back in to belay loop. This is the system most instructors use for making themselves safe at the top of a crag.
> (In reply to ericinbristol)
>
> Maybe you could clove hitch a locking krab onto the rope(s) just above your figure of 8 (other tie-in knots are available)? This would save faff when setting up your belays, you'd just need to select suitable anchors, clip in, and adjust the length. I don't know if this is necessarily safe, e.g. there may be potential for tangling.
>
> Maybe you could clove hitch a locking krab onto the rope(s) just above your figure of 8 (other tie-in knots are available)? This would save faff when setting up your belays, you'd just need to select suitable anchors, clip in, and adjust the length. I don't know if this is necessarily safe, e.g. there may be potential for tangling.
More faff than it's worth I reckon. It would be a pain and potentially dangerous when clipping runners.
A better alternative might be to larks foot a sling through your belay loop or legloop and waist belt, wrap it round your body and clip back in to belay loop. This is the system most instructors use for making themselves safe at the top of a crag.
In reply to DaveHK:
Yup, daisy chain clipped directly to ab station (in situ static rope round tree and rap ring) plus at least one other piece such as a sling is the plan.
Yup, daisy chain clipped directly to ab station (in situ static rope round tree and rap ring) plus at least one other piece such as a sling is the plan.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
For fun and for a challenge. I like a mix of quality and quantity. We'll also be climbing plenty of quality routes.
For fun and for a challenge. I like a mix of quality and quantity. We'll also be climbing plenty of quality routes.
In reply to adep247:
<Sigh>. We won't be risking sacrificing safety for speed. We will be exercising our judgement about where we want the balance to be. And we are approaching this with a focus on going fast by being efficient not by being unsafe.
<Sigh>. We won't be risking sacrificing safety for speed. We will be exercising our judgement about where we want the balance to be. And we are approaching this with a focus on going fast by being efficient not by being unsafe.
In reply to ericinbristol: Why only 20?
In reply to adep247:
Moving safely at speed is one of the joys of climbing and the OP is looking to develop that skill in a safe environment.
Sounds like a fun day and a pretty sound decision to me.
> (In reply to Bulls Crack)
>
> Agreed, the OP also risks sacrificing safety for the sake of speed.
>
> Agreed, the OP also risks sacrificing safety for the sake of speed.
Moving safely at speed is one of the joys of climbing and the OP is looking to develop that skill in a safe environment.
Sounds like a fun day and a pretty sound decision to me.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Please note that a daisy chain is not designed for use within a belay. The 'segments' have a low breaking strain. These should really only be used in Aid situations and for big walls, use a sling instead.
> (In reply to Dave Kerr)
>
> Yup, daisy chain clipped directly to ab station (in situ static rope round tree and rap ring) plus at least one other piece such as a sling is the plan.
>
> Yup, daisy chain clipped directly to ab station (in situ static rope round tree and rap ring) plus at least one other piece such as a sling is the plan.
Please note that a daisy chain is not designed for use within a belay. The 'segments' have a low breaking strain. These should really only be used in Aid situations and for big walls, use a sling instead.
In reply to ericinbristol:
If you use a direct belay you can dispense with the other piece as you will not be in the system and the daisy chain is just for your own safety.
> (In reply to Dave Kerr)
>
> Yup, daisy chain clipped directly to ab station (in situ static rope round tree and rap ring) plus at least one other piece such as a sling is the plan.
>
> Yup, daisy chain clipped directly to ab station (in situ static rope round tree and rap ring) plus at least one other piece such as a sling is the plan.
If you use a direct belay you can dispense with the other piece as you will not be in the system and the daisy chain is just for your own safety.
In reply to ericinbristol: Personally I would be happy with a single belay point if, like most belay trees at Shorn Cliff, it's at least 6 inches diameter, well away from the edge of the cliff, deep rooted and not dead.
Al
Al
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
Aha, a helpful suggestion thanks: hadn't thought of that. Will think about that as an alternative to our planned setup. Would need to be a 60m bearing in mind the length of some of the anticipated pitches.
> Never untie. Second trails another rope for abbing on.
Aha, a helpful suggestion thanks: hadn't thought of that. Will think about that as an alternative to our planned setup. Would need to be a 60m bearing in mind the length of some of the anticipated pitches.
In reply to ericinbristol:
I must admit 20 is fairly easy in a day. Provided you don't faff. start early. and climb well within your grade. did 30 or more at windgather in less than 5hrs. mind you we only roped up for anything HVS and above so that was like 6 routes and soloed the rest.
But yeah you should be able to do this.
If you have rings, stakes, and tress. I would personally go for a system like Dave suggested; (You will require 2 spare belay plates and a second rope trailing, you will be climbing on a single. for ultimate speed)
Clip to tree/ring/Stake with a sling or Krab. slap a magic plate on. on the sling that is direct to the tree/ring/slab. pull in slack. belay second.
At same time begin threading the abseil with your trail rope. (I assume one rope halved gets you to the floor) Slap the 2 spare belay plates in here.
Second arrives throws the gear he pulled out at the leader and clips into the lower belay plate and raps. (faster and safety than lowering) if you want to have a safety use an Italian on a krab next to the magic plate and use the rope he just climbed on. Leader re racks gear whilst he raps
Once he/she is down Rap down after them they can protect you from the floor by holding the rope ready to pull tight if you slip.
both are now on the floor still tied together. pull rap rope clip to harness start next route.
reckon you could do 20. It not a bad exercise in efficiency for practise before going to the Alps etc, although not the kind of thing I would do for fun. When guiding I tend to operate at high speed, a bit (but not the same) like this to maximise client experience. Its hard work and tiring, not a good laugh. but horses for courses as they say.
I must admit 20 is fairly easy in a day. Provided you don't faff. start early. and climb well within your grade. did 30 or more at windgather in less than 5hrs. mind you we only roped up for anything HVS and above so that was like 6 routes and soloed the rest.
But yeah you should be able to do this.
If you have rings, stakes, and tress. I would personally go for a system like Dave suggested; (You will require 2 spare belay plates and a second rope trailing, you will be climbing on a single. for ultimate speed)
Clip to tree/ring/Stake with a sling or Krab. slap a magic plate on. on the sling that is direct to the tree/ring/slab. pull in slack. belay second.
At same time begin threading the abseil with your trail rope. (I assume one rope halved gets you to the floor) Slap the 2 spare belay plates in here.
Second arrives throws the gear he pulled out at the leader and clips into the lower belay plate and raps. (faster and safety than lowering) if you want to have a safety use an Italian on a krab next to the magic plate and use the rope he just climbed on. Leader re racks gear whilst he raps
Once he/she is down Rap down after them they can protect you from the floor by holding the rope ready to pull tight if you slip.
both are now on the floor still tied together. pull rap rope clip to harness start next route.
reckon you could do 20. It not a bad exercise in efficiency for practise before going to the Alps etc, although not the kind of thing I would do for fun. When guiding I tend to operate at high speed, a bit (but not the same) like this to maximise client experience. Its hard work and tiring, not a good laugh. but horses for courses as they say.
In reply to ericinbristol: Consider using a bandolier rather than racking on the harness.
Don't waste time waiting for your partner to complete a task if you can be doing something else. So for example, if there are two belay points, shout safe once you have set up one, your partner can be getting ready while you sort out the second.
Al
Don't waste time waiting for your partner to complete a task if you can be doing something else. So for example, if there are two belay points, shout safe once you have set up one, your partner can be getting ready while you sort out the second.
Al
In reply to A Crook:
Yes, mostly soloing makes 20+ in a day pretty easy. We won't be soloing at all.
Thanks for the practical suggestion: will think about it as an alternative to what we have planned.
btw it's not practice for the Alps: I have already done a route with 22 roped pitches (not all bolted) and abbed back down in a day in the Alps.
Yes, mostly soloing makes 20+ in a day pretty easy. We won't be soloing at all.
Thanks for the practical suggestion: will think about it as an alternative to what we have planned.
btw it's not practice for the Alps: I have already done a route with 22 roped pitches (not all bolted) and abbed back down in a day in the Alps.
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
The bandolier suggestion makes sense but man I hate climbing with one of them on so would rather lose some time.
I agree on the zero waiting, always doing something bit.
The bandolier suggestion makes sense but man I hate climbing with one of them on so would rather lose some time.
I agree on the zero waiting, always doing something bit.
In reply to ericinbristol:
No real tips, just good luck and hope you have a great day. I think I've done 10-ish roped climbs in a day, without trying for speed, so 20+ sounds perfectly possible if you are.
Mind you I wouldn't choose Shorn Cliff (ChossyOvergrownLooseSlimeyMuddyHole)
No real tips, just good luck and hope you have a great day. I think I've done 10-ish roped climbs in a day, without trying for speed, so 20+ sounds perfectly possible if you are.
Mind you I wouldn't choose Shorn Cliff (ChossyOvergrownLooseSlimeyMuddyHole)
In reply to John_Hat:
Shorn cliff has loads do fantastic routes at HVS-e1 so I think thats a bad description of the crag
Shorn cliff has loads do fantastic routes at HVS-e1 so I think thats a bad description of the crag
In reply to ericinbristol:
See "Team Tactics"
http://blue-straggler.net/Curbar_Project_2011
So in the end we did 13-14 on the Saturday, but they were all at or beyond my own leading limit. You have grades in hand and plenty of time (we started at 9.30 and finished around 4.30 when I called for an end to proceedings). If we could have thrown some HS in there, and if I'd been a stronger leader, then 20+ would have been fine, and as you can see, we weren't doing anything "clever" such as what's been suggested thus far. I don't know Shorn Cliff though, so maybe our Curbar approach would not work. Of course there are many 10-12m routes at Curbar and you talk about 30+m, so our "37 mins per route on average" count may also not work.
See "Team Tactics"
http://blue-straggler.net/Curbar_Project_2011
So in the end we did 13-14 on the Saturday, but they were all at or beyond my own leading limit. You have grades in hand and plenty of time (we started at 9.30 and finished around 4.30 when I called for an end to proceedings). If we could have thrown some HS in there, and if I'd been a stronger leader, then 20+ would have been fine, and as you can see, we weren't doing anything "clever" such as what's been suggested thus far. I don't know Shorn Cliff though, so maybe our Curbar approach would not work. Of course there are many 10-12m routes at Curbar and you talk about 30+m, so our "37 mins per route on average" count may also not work.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Some good targets for the future would be 50 then 100 solos in a day...
You need the right crag for those obviously.
Some good targets for the future would be 50 then 100 solos in a day...
You need the right crag for those obviously.
In reply to John_Hat:
Cheers, thanks. There is some grotty stuff at Shorn Cliff but loads of high quality routes too and we will be sticking to the good ones (I know the crag well).
Cheers, thanks. There is some grotty stuff at Shorn Cliff but loads of high quality routes too and we will be sticking to the good ones (I know the crag well).
In reply to Kemics:
To keep it fun, I doubt we will bother with the dawn (currently 0620) start. 8am to 8pm sounds about right. Certainly there will be no predawn, postsunset headtorch malarkey.
To keep it fun, I doubt we will bother with the dawn (currently 0620) start. 8am to 8pm sounds about right. Certainly there will be no predawn, postsunset headtorch malarkey.
In reply to DaveHK:
Yes, good targets but I'm not keen on soloing any more (I used to solo regularly on grit). I also fancy the team rope/gear etc management aspect.
Yes, good targets but I'm not keen on soloing any more (I used to solo regularly on grit). I also fancy the team rope/gear etc management aspect.
In reply to Blue Straggler:
A fun read, thanks. We will be climbing comfortably within our limit, so I reckon we can manage an average of 30 mins or significantly less to lead, second, get down, get sorted and be ready to start the next route. With 12 hours 8am-8pm that would be 24.
A fun read, thanks. We will be climbing comfortably within our limit, so I reckon we can manage an average of 30 mins or significantly less to lead, second, get down, get sorted and be ready to start the next route. With 12 hours 8am-8pm that would be 24.
In reply to ericinbristol: You're not going to be able to make much time up on the climbing itself so dont worry about that aspect too much. The real time savings are in setting up belays, setting up abs, finding routes and generally avoiding faff.
Go through the guide and highlight routes that look like you'll be able to do them quickly, particularly routes youve down before (so have an idea of the belay/ab setup.) Once youve done that look how the routes are spread over the cliff to get an idea of how to structure your day: where to start, wheres a good spot to grab some food, where you need to slow the pace a bit, where you can move quickly, where you can leave a rope in place to ab from etc.
Go through the guide and highlight routes that look like you'll be able to do them quickly, particularly routes youve down before (so have an idea of the belay/ab setup.) Once youve done that look how the routes are spread over the cliff to get an idea of how to structure your day: where to start, wheres a good spot to grab some food, where you need to slow the pace a bit, where you can move quickly, where you can leave a rope in place to ab from etc.
In reply to remus:
Thanks and yup, I've got a plan of which routes to do, and they are nearly all routes I've done before so there will be little time lost route finding (the start, where it goes and where to belay and get down).
Thanks and yup, I've got a plan of which routes to do, and they are nearly all routes I've done before so there will be little time lost route finding (the start, where it goes and where to belay and get down).
Bump for the post Bank holiday back to work crew.
Ideas for being super-slick on a day of single pitch roped trad with ab descent welcome.
Ideas for being super-slick on a day of single pitch roped trad with ab descent welcome.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Several years ago I did 53 routes at Birchen's edge - it was November so limited daylight hours (we climbed 9-4) all trad leads, roped etc.
last month did 20+ routes at Baslow in 2 hours- again all trad leads, roped.
2 things which helped - we body belayed on nearly all routes & pacing yourself- at Birchens we forced ourselves to rest for 10 minutes every 10 routes.
Good luck
Woodsy
Several years ago I did 53 routes at Birchen's edge - it was November so limited daylight hours (we climbed 9-4) all trad leads, roped etc.
last month did 20+ routes at Baslow in 2 hours- again all trad leads, roped.
2 things which helped - we body belayed on nearly all routes & pacing yourself- at Birchens we forced ourselves to rest for 10 minutes every 10 routes.
Good luck
Woodsy
In reply to woodsy:
20+ in 2 hours! That's a route every 6 minutes to lead, second, descend and be ready to start the next one. Phew....
I like the 10 min rest every 10 routes idea, excellent. It will be nice to pause in the midst of the frenzy...
20+ in 2 hours! That's a route every 6 minutes to lead, second, descend and be ready to start the next one. Phew....
I like the 10 min rest every 10 routes idea, excellent. It will be nice to pause in the midst of the frenzy...
Well, we ended up doing 17 routes totalling 335 metres as Shorn Cliff yesterday in just over 9 hours, so 33 minutes a route. Hardly a landmark in the annals of climbing, just good fun. There was light to do more but we were happy to finish on a superb route rather than keep going just to up the total. I have never seen the rock there so greasy, mossy, gritty and never known the place so mozzy infested (and we didn’t bring any repellent so got bitten to bits).
The approach was
- Not making speed the completely top priority, just aiming to be fairly quick
- We didn’t particularly run it out, but keep the gear reasonably spaced, climbing to the next good one rather than fiddling about with a poor/awkward one. We made not getting gear stuck a high priority.
- 60m rope and standard rack of nuts, draws (well it was when I got them chucked up to me having not noticed their absence until part way up the second route) and cams
- Leader clipped a daisy to the rope and ring lower offs round trees and/or sling around a tree. As soon as the leader shouted ‘safe’, the second took them off belay attached themselves with fig 8 on a bight and screwgate to wherever the rope had fed out. Leader put them on belay and lowered them straight back down once they had done the route. While the second sorted the gear etc, the leader fed a loop of rope through the rap ring/behind the tree and when a good loop was through untied and pulled that through too, second shouted when the rope touched down. Ab off, second pulls up the shortest end of the rope while the leader reracks etc. Not the fastest system possible but still pretty quick and simple.
- Leading in blocks.
The routes in order of completion:
Acoustic VD * 20m Eric repeat
Tigers Don’t Cry HVS 5a *** 18m Eric repeat
The Bone E1 5b ** 18m Eric repeat
Pooh Sticks E1 5b ** 18m Eric repeat
Hydraulic Jump VS 4c * 18m Johnny on sight
Indecisive Victory HS 4b 15m Johnny on sight
Heavy Plant Crossing VS 4c * 17m Johnny on sight
The Orphan E1 5b 17m Eric repeat
Secret Identity VS 4c * 15m Eric repeat
Dirty Harry HS 4b E15m ric repeat
The Iron Curtain VS 4x * 20m Johnny on sight
Temporary Truce VS 4c * 22m Johnny on sight
Night Rider HS 4b * 28m Johnny on sight
Dictator HVS 5a * 20m Eric repeat
Traitor E1 5a * 20m Eric repeat
One For All HS 4b ** 27m Eric repeat
No Musketeers Direct E1 5c *** 27m Eric repeat
What would I do differently? Not much. Bring mozzy repellent, leave the fiddly Gridlock screwgate behind. In the run up do a few long trad days rather than short sport days. Wear more comfortable rock shoes (we popped our Anasazis off asap).
A great day out...
The approach was
- Not making speed the completely top priority, just aiming to be fairly quick
- We didn’t particularly run it out, but keep the gear reasonably spaced, climbing to the next good one rather than fiddling about with a poor/awkward one. We made not getting gear stuck a high priority.
- 60m rope and standard rack of nuts, draws (well it was when I got them chucked up to me having not noticed their absence until part way up the second route) and cams
- Leader clipped a daisy to the rope and ring lower offs round trees and/or sling around a tree. As soon as the leader shouted ‘safe’, the second took them off belay attached themselves with fig 8 on a bight and screwgate to wherever the rope had fed out. Leader put them on belay and lowered them straight back down once they had done the route. While the second sorted the gear etc, the leader fed a loop of rope through the rap ring/behind the tree and when a good loop was through untied and pulled that through too, second shouted when the rope touched down. Ab off, second pulls up the shortest end of the rope while the leader reracks etc. Not the fastest system possible but still pretty quick and simple.
- Leading in blocks.
The routes in order of completion:
Acoustic VD * 20m Eric repeat
Tigers Don’t Cry HVS 5a *** 18m Eric repeat
The Bone E1 5b ** 18m Eric repeat
Pooh Sticks E1 5b ** 18m Eric repeat
Hydraulic Jump VS 4c * 18m Johnny on sight
Indecisive Victory HS 4b 15m Johnny on sight
Heavy Plant Crossing VS 4c * 17m Johnny on sight
The Orphan E1 5b 17m Eric repeat
Secret Identity VS 4c * 15m Eric repeat
Dirty Harry HS 4b E15m ric repeat
The Iron Curtain VS 4x * 20m Johnny on sight
Temporary Truce VS 4c * 22m Johnny on sight
Night Rider HS 4b * 28m Johnny on sight
Dictator HVS 5a * 20m Eric repeat
Traitor E1 5a * 20m Eric repeat
One For All HS 4b ** 27m Eric repeat
No Musketeers Direct E1 5c *** 27m Eric repeat
What would I do differently? Not much. Bring mozzy repellent, leave the fiddly Gridlock screwgate behind. In the run up do a few long trad days rather than short sport days. Wear more comfortable rock shoes (we popped our Anasazis off asap).
A great day out...
In reply to ericinbristol:
Good work. What one thing did you think was the most important in terms of efficiency? I'd guess at the block leading. I don't know Shorn Cliff though. At Curbar we didn't abseil, as most belays needed gear and it was always short enough to walk around. Obviously our routes were shorter than yours but I for one never deliberately ran it out (as I was leading at and beyond my limit )
Good work. What one thing did you think was the most important in terms of efficiency? I'd guess at the block leading. I don't know Shorn Cliff though. At Curbar we didn't abseil, as most belays needed gear and it was always short enough to walk around. Obviously our routes were shorter than yours but I for one never deliberately ran it out (as I was leading at and beyond my limit )
In reply to Blue Straggler:
At Shorn Cliff there are no walk offs: you have to ab, but abbing off would have been a lot quicker even with convenient walk offs.
The things that helped most with efficiency were:
- Getting a clear list together in advance of routes to choose from
- Being decisive about not doing a route chosen in advance (in one case it was seeping, in another case the gear in the start was poor) and moving on
- Knowing exactly where the routes start, go and finish (we didn't have to look at the guidebook once all day)
- Avoiding hesitation on the routes (If we needed more gear to make a move, we got it in straight away. Once gear was in, we didn't stand around admiring our handiwork, we immediately started climbing again. If a placement was going to be a faff and a good placement could be seen higher up, climb on)
- No time wasted doing nothing: there was always something to do
- Communication to help each other be efficient
- Mainly thinking about climbing between footholds so our arms didn't get too knackered too quickly.
- Block leading was great, not only because there is less gear handover time (I don't like bandoliers either) but also because it allowed for better psychological rest from leading
At Shorn Cliff there are no walk offs: you have to ab, but abbing off would have been a lot quicker even with convenient walk offs.
The things that helped most with efficiency were:
- Getting a clear list together in advance of routes to choose from
- Being decisive about not doing a route chosen in advance (in one case it was seeping, in another case the gear in the start was poor) and moving on
- Knowing exactly where the routes start, go and finish (we didn't have to look at the guidebook once all day)
- Avoiding hesitation on the routes (If we needed more gear to make a move, we got it in straight away. Once gear was in, we didn't stand around admiring our handiwork, we immediately started climbing again. If a placement was going to be a faff and a good placement could be seen higher up, climb on)
- No time wasted doing nothing: there was always something to do
- Communication to help each other be efficient
- Mainly thinking about climbing between footholds so our arms didn't get too knackered too quickly.
- Block leading was great, not only because there is less gear handover time (I don't like bandoliers either) but also because it allowed for better psychological rest from leading
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
That's a very neat solution as it avoids the risk of tangling your ab ropes in trees as you trow them out. A very similar solution uses one lead rope for belaying, the other for abbing with the second pulling the ab rope through the ring as they lower again avoiding tangles.
OP: You don't really need any special tricks to get through loads of routes, you just need to maintain enthusiasm and get on with it. Minimise time wasted wandering around (side by side routes are great especially where they share a belay/ab saving you rigging and coiling time). Climbing quickly and confidently is a big time saver. Doing so generally actually means placing more gear, not less so you can get on with the moves first time rather than the tentative trad up-down-up-down-up style that really eats time. It goes without saying that climbing in your comfort zone is much faster than sketching about at your limit. A rope bag is quicker than coiling/un-coiling under each route.
<edit> I see you did it or very nearly. Am I reading right that you just belayed off your daisy chain? If so that's not such a great idea!
jk
> Never untie. Second trails another rope for abbing on.
That's a very neat solution as it avoids the risk of tangling your ab ropes in trees as you trow them out. A very similar solution uses one lead rope for belaying, the other for abbing with the second pulling the ab rope through the ring as they lower again avoiding tangles.
OP: You don't really need any special tricks to get through loads of routes, you just need to maintain enthusiasm and get on with it. Minimise time wasted wandering around (side by side routes are great especially where they share a belay/ab saving you rigging and coiling time). Climbing quickly and confidently is a big time saver. Doing so generally actually means placing more gear, not less so you can get on with the moves first time rather than the tentative trad up-down-up-down-up style that really eats time. It goes without saying that climbing in your comfort zone is much faster than sketching about at your limit. A rope bag is quicker than coiling/un-coiling under each route.
<edit> I see you did it or very nearly. Am I reading right that you just belayed off your daisy chain? If so that's not such a great idea!
jk
In reply to jkarran:
The separate ab rope makes sense, but we enjoyed the simplicity of just using one rope, and we never had to throw the ab rope and any tree tangling was minimal as it happened.
Agree with everything else in your post and that is exactly what we did as it happens.
Re the daisy, its a Metolius PAS so every loop is rated to 18kN, so not a standard daisy with loops rated to 2kN. Belays were a PAS to one point and a sling to another.
The separate ab rope makes sense, but we enjoyed the simplicity of just using one rope, and we never had to throw the ab rope and any tree tangling was minimal as it happened.
Agree with everything else in your post and that is exactly what we did as it happens.
Re the daisy, its a Metolius PAS so every loop is rated to 18kN, so not a standard daisy with loops rated to 2kN. Belays were a PAS to one point and a sling to another.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Solo them, far quiker, with abb rope preset.
Solo them, far quiker, with abb rope preset.
In reply to neilh:
Not sure how practical it is to preplace abseil ropes at Shorncliff. From memory its pretty inaccessible from the top and just about every route has its own abseil station because its not easy to traverse the top of the crag either.
Not sure how practical it is to preplace abseil ropes at Shorncliff. From memory its pretty inaccessible from the top and just about every route has its own abseil station because its not easy to traverse the top of the crag either.
In reply to neilh:
The soloing point is irrelevant: we wanted to do a roped trad day. Anyway, the preset ab rope would not work at Shorn Cliff: we would have needed lots of them and the only way to get them up would have been trad leading. Traversing the top is not an option for the non-suicidal.
The soloing point is irrelevant: we wanted to do a roped trad day. Anyway, the preset ab rope would not work at Shorn Cliff: we would have needed lots of them and the only way to get them up would have been trad leading. Traversing the top is not an option for the non-suicidal.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Done quite a lot of this and it is all about not faffing. So, whilst one of you is gearing up, the other should be flaking the rope. At the top, one sorts out the rope whilst the other takes out the gear. Don't faff about chatting once you get back to the bottom. Don't sit down and have a bite to eat after every climb. If you spend 5 minutes chatting before each climb, after 12 climbs, you will have wasted an hour!
My personal record was 26 climbs before lunch time!
> I think we are well organised for it, but I'd be interested to hear any suggestions people have for how to go as fast as possible, preferably tips that aren't obvious ones like climb quickly, run it out...
Done quite a lot of this and it is all about not faffing. So, whilst one of you is gearing up, the other should be flaking the rope. At the top, one sorts out the rope whilst the other takes out the gear. Don't faff about chatting once you get back to the bottom. Don't sit down and have a bite to eat after every climb. If you spend 5 minutes chatting before each climb, after 12 climbs, you will have wasted an hour!
My personal record was 26 climbs before lunch time!
In reply to EeeByGum:
Sounds awfull
> (In reply to ericinbristol)
>
> [...]
>
Don't faff about chatting once you get back to the bottom. Don't sit down and have a bite to eat after every climb. If you spend 5 minutes chatting before each climb, after 12 climbs, you will have wasted an hour!>
> [...]
>
>
Sounds awfull
In reply to Bulls Crack:
It's okay, you are allowed to scream 'MTFU!' at your climbing partner if they place two pieces of gear within 5 metres.
It's okay, you are allowed to scream 'MTFU!' at your climbing partner if they place two pieces of gear within 5 metres.
In reply to ericinbristol: Start at 7am and that gives you 11 minutes per climb which on a grit crag is plenty. There may have been a few sneaky solos in there.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Fair enough, but if you only have a very limited opportunity to climb, why spend it sat on your arse enjoying the view?
Anyway, climbing isn't about enjoying yourself. It is about ticking routes!
> Sounds awfull
Fair enough, but if you only have a very limited opportunity to climb, why spend it sat on your arse enjoying the view?
Anyway, climbing isn't about enjoying yourself. It is about ticking routes!
1
In reply to ericinbristol:
I know, and doing that number of climbs at Shorncliff is impressive. Its not an easy place for access all round.
I know, and doing that number of climbs at Shorncliff is impressive. Its not an easy place for access all round.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Some possibilities:
1. simul rap (but only if you really, really know what you are doing and use a buddy system).
2. don't rack the draws one-by-one onto the the harness, carry them in bunches of five: five long, five short. This saves a lot of clipping
3. lead in blocks: she leads 5 pitches, he leads 5; this keeps you in the zone.
4. belay off the anchor tree in guide mode and as this is almost hands-free you can untie and thread the rap point whilst bring up the second. (You will need to be attached to the anchor with a sling, not the rope.)
5. use a cleaning sling - a 60cm sling over you shoulder. Clean everything onto this then just hand it to the leader for her to re-rack.
6. eat and drink lots.
7. if a piece gets stuck, remove it on the rap.
8. use an overhand to join the rap ropes.
9. depending on your rules, allow the second to hang on the rope to remove pieces to to get over the crux.
10. Use a very uniform rack. i.e. all the cams follow a natural sequence from the minimum number of manufactures and no gaps. If possible, put cams on matching coloured krabs. Assuming you carry your wires on 3 krabs (small, medium, large) colour code the krabs (yellow, orange, red: the rule might be the more "red" the krab the bigger the wires). All this does it make it easier for two people to use the same rack without confusion.
11. do your own stuff first, don't try and share the work. Only you can tie into your harness or tighten your shoes. Get that done first, even if that means the other climber is pulling the ropes etc. more.
12. use twist lock krabs where it make sense.
13. use the krab on the piece as the first nut-key, only get the real one out if you need to.
14. tape your hands so you can jam fast and bash pieces without pain.
15. make sure you stay safe - it's only a game.
Hope that helps, and sorry if others had said the same things.
Some possibilities:
1. simul rap (but only if you really, really know what you are doing and use a buddy system).
2. don't rack the draws one-by-one onto the the harness, carry them in bunches of five: five long, five short. This saves a lot of clipping
3. lead in blocks: she leads 5 pitches, he leads 5; this keeps you in the zone.
4. belay off the anchor tree in guide mode and as this is almost hands-free you can untie and thread the rap point whilst bring up the second. (You will need to be attached to the anchor with a sling, not the rope.)
5. use a cleaning sling - a 60cm sling over you shoulder. Clean everything onto this then just hand it to the leader for her to re-rack.
6. eat and drink lots.
7. if a piece gets stuck, remove it on the rap.
8. use an overhand to join the rap ropes.
9. depending on your rules, allow the second to hang on the rope to remove pieces to to get over the crux.
10. Use a very uniform rack. i.e. all the cams follow a natural sequence from the minimum number of manufactures and no gaps. If possible, put cams on matching coloured krabs. Assuming you carry your wires on 3 krabs (small, medium, large) colour code the krabs (yellow, orange, red: the rule might be the more "red" the krab the bigger the wires). All this does it make it easier for two people to use the same rack without confusion.
11. do your own stuff first, don't try and share the work. Only you can tie into your harness or tighten your shoes. Get that done first, even if that means the other climber is pulling the ropes etc. more.
12. use twist lock krabs where it make sense.
13. use the krab on the piece as the first nut-key, only get the real one out if you need to.
14. tape your hands so you can jam fast and bash pieces without pain.
15. make sure you stay safe - it's only a game.
Hope that helps, and sorry if others had said the same things.
In reply to ericinbristol:
This is really my kind of a game. My best tips are:
1. Climb faster, a lot faster! As second climb as fast as you can.
2. When climbing fast as a second, hold the rope with one hand, this way the rope don't tangle as much when the belayer don't manage to pull slack fast enough. Remember, you are on a tope rope, you won't hit the ground.
3. Always belay the second with a reverso.
4. Plan routes well, which route to do in which order.
5. If you need to coil, coil fast, if coiling before threading to an anchor coil the rope double, otherwise, coil it single. There are some nice youtube videos with fast rope coiling.
6. Place cams! Even in the perfect nut placement reach for a cam every time. Only place nut if it is impossible for a cam to fit.
7. Rest durinig belaying, climb during climbing, in the between, move fast.
8. Use a single rope.
9. Build belay/rap stations before you start a climb, move on top of the cliff between climbs and not on the bottom between climbs.
10. Be safe!
This is really my kind of a game. My best tips are:
1. Climb faster, a lot faster! As second climb as fast as you can.
2. When climbing fast as a second, hold the rope with one hand, this way the rope don't tangle as much when the belayer don't manage to pull slack fast enough. Remember, you are on a tope rope, you won't hit the ground.
3. Always belay the second with a reverso.
4. Plan routes well, which route to do in which order.
5. If you need to coil, coil fast, if coiling before threading to an anchor coil the rope double, otherwise, coil it single. There are some nice youtube videos with fast rope coiling.
6. Place cams! Even in the perfect nut placement reach for a cam every time. Only place nut if it is impossible for a cam to fit.
7. Rest durinig belaying, climb during climbing, in the between, move fast.
8. Use a single rope.
9. Build belay/rap stations before you start a climb, move on top of the cliff between climbs and not on the bottom between climbs.
10. Be safe!
In reply to ericinbristol: So what is your excuse for not doing Organ Grinder????
In reply to Simon4:
Indeed: great line, great route. Re your question:
A: weak, lazy, scared.
B: led it multiple times before, rationing energy output.
Your call.
Indeed: great line, great route. Re your question:
A: weak, lazy, scared.
B: led it multiple times before, rationing energy output.
Your call.
In reply to ericinbristol:
Can't be scared, as it is plastered with gear and never runs out of holds, provided you have the strength to keep hanging on them.
I did it on Sunday. But then I climbed many less routes than you did, so perhaps you have the edge.
Can't be scared, as it is plastered with gear and never runs out of holds, provided you have the strength to keep hanging on them.
I did it on Sunday. But then I climbed many less routes than you did, so perhaps you have the edge.
In reply to Simon4:
Yup, I've led it lots of times and will do so again I'm sure. The priority was lots of routes that day rather than all of the best.
Yup, I've led it lots of times and will do so again I'm sure. The priority was lots of routes that day rather than all of the best.
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