UKC

I'm having huge trouble getting somebody to do what I think is a couple of days worth of work on my house. One guy never returned my calls, another gave me an insultingly high "I don't want your business" quote and another gave me a good quote and seemed like a sound guy, but now won't answer his phone. I'm a bit confused because various people I know in similar trades have been complaining they are struggling at the moment. Would anyone care to speculate wildly on what's going on? I'd have thought this was an attractive size of job, paying enough to be worth it but small enough to schedule reasonably easily...

In reply to jonny taylor: Sounds like any involvement I've ever had with a tradesman. It's saved me a fortune and gained me a lot of new skills.

In reply to jonny taylor: What is the job and what do you consider to be insultingly high?

In reply to Wonko The Sane:
Replacing frame around a window, new door sill and various smaller jobs. Quote of £270 struck me as reasonable, quote of more than 3 times that didn't.

In reply to Wonko The Sane:

Quote of £170 to put three new brackets on some guttering, which I had done to a good standard for £35 by somebody else.
(ok I should maybe hand in my man card for not doing that one myself, but lack a number of the necessary tools)

In reply to jonny taylor:

Parents know of a few if you're in or near Sheffield.

In reply to jonny taylor: Where are you?

In reply to Jim Lancs:
Nr durham city

In reply to jonny taylor:

Not sure what you mean by a frame around a window...... and obviously not sure about the other smaller jobs. However I can tell you that this is the kind of job I'd have steered clear of when I was a carpenter. They can be bitty, has the potential to quickly turn into a loss for you and if you've other work available, you'd take the better stuff.

If the chap giving you the quote for £270 includes materials, it seems a bit low for two day's work. Perhaps he's starting out, quoted badly and been offered better work. All frustrating I know. Do remember, if it's a construction company who returned the larger quote, they have overheads and are not interested in tiny jobs with a loss potential, so they'd price it to make sure they make money from it.

As stated though, hard to say without knowing exactly what's required.


I am not suggesting this is the case with your job.......... but things I have encountered when I've had my own company included such things as discovering that replacing three sets of architrave to some sash windows lead to the discovery that someone had plastered the wall badly with bonding plaster....... which hadn't bonded...... to a depth of 100mm in place of a skin of brickwork and the plaster was in fact holding up the single sking of facade three floors up!!!! Client almost blamed me for discovering it and wanted me to re plaster in the same manner, which I refused to do on safety grounds.


I offer the above only to balance people's view of tradesmen, who, when working for private clients sometimes face a thankless task for relatively little money compared to working on a construction site.

In reply to Wonko The Sane:

I was thinking something vaugely similar, that you don't always know what you'll uncover when you do something simple like replacing a window. My parents have had 'fun' uncovering surprises when renovating my childhood home, nothing as serious as your's, but things to make jobs take a lot longer.

In reply to Wonko The Sane:
You could well be right, all fair points. I'd just far rather people were upfront rather than just stringing me along, if that is what is happening.

I was being over-simplistic about the window frame, we agreed that he would remove certain specific bits of wood and replace them, and not remove the whole frame or window, so I hope we had defined boundaries to the work, but maybe you are right and he changed his mind about how much work was involved.

Re the high quotes, you are right that it was a company rather than a one-man outfit. I just wish they had been honest about it, I think I gave a clear picture of the scale/scope of the job before they came out to quote for it. Could have saved us both the wasted time.

In reply to jonny taylor:

They probably weren't wasting your time (wasting your time = wasting their time too)

They possibly gave you a quote for doing the job correctly and professionally. Hard to say without seeing it.

Carpenters offering serivces for the £100 a day mark are probably not particularly skilled tradesmen. And if that sounds like they earn too much, consider just the toolkit a decent carpenter would own could be in excess of £5k, plus running a vehicle, paying tax etc. A decent tradesman is a reasonably well trained person.

Obviously, because of the money to be made it attracts chancers too.

In reply to Wonko The Sane:
Could be. The guy has been in the business for some years and comes highly recommended. I may be wrong about the two days bit (maybe spread over two days with time for stuff to dry?), or maybe you're right and he regrets the quote.

In reply to jonny taylor:

Not really suggesting I'm right or wrong......... not seen the work!
Just offering possibilities to consider.

In reply to jonny taylor: Try trustatrader.com

In reply to jonny taylor: Private work is the worst kind of work. No decent tradesmen wants to do it unless there's plenty of money. I sometimes tripple the actual cost when i get cornered into a quote for friends of friends etc to scare them off but sometime i get the job and make 'Loads a Money'!!!

In reply to jonny taylor:

It seems hard to find tradespeople full stop. I had a bunch of people in to quote to replaster my kitchen which was a pretty straight foward simple job, but most people who came and quoted, never rang back with an actual quote. It just seems to be the way of things.

When I did get someone in they dicked me around for 2 months on about 3 weeks of work.

It sounds to me, with my woodworking hat on, that you'd be best of completely replacing the whole frame. It's not that hard to do and if you're a vaguely competent person, you're fairly unlikely to cock it up.

I finished off a door frame recently, which had some rot on the bottom, my builder just whacked a bit of wood in the bottom and left it. I went off found some mouldings that matched and fitted them. It's not 100% perfect, but it's pretty good. Now that I've got a router, I'm kicking myself for not waiting, as I could do a perfect job now.

In reply to jonny taylor: Wonko's got it spot on! i've got loads of private work on, i'm far from the cheapest but am booked well ahead and people willing to wait for a proper job, all word of mouth.

Pay peanuts and get.......

In reply to jonny taylor:
I find that ringing folk back and nagging them can work if they don't return calls/ commit- they do sometimes want the work but are so busy doing the work during the day and don't necessarily have a secretary (wife) to take calls that they forget to follow folk up. We've done a lot of work oursleves where possible but...
Every domestic job we've needed folk for in the last 1.5yrs has been pretty successful- had a good sparky, 2x joinery companies, 2 good plasterers/ tapers- (the latter came at 3 days notice to squeeze us in between jobs), family run bathroom company (who came back promptly a year later when we called as the bath had cracked and replaced for free- although they helped themsleves to biscuits out the cupboard- cheeky b*ggers!)
There must be some chaps who focus on smaller jobs as I can't believe (in a recession) that every company is busy with massive building projects?

In reply to jonny taylor: i sometimes found trouble getting a decent carpenter. (couldn't at the time broken back)

But had one quoted to do a £600 job on a timber workshop, he eventually rocked up and i'm quite happy with the level of workmanship.

Chimmney sweep is round tomorrow to do a woodburning stove. Yet to see what he has to do/bring, but at £65 it seems a bit steep, seem to remember missus paying £45 last year.

In reply to jonny taylor: Bear in mind that the time involved in looking at and organising a wee job can be way out of proportion to the actual work involved..we all have to make a living!
I've never liked quotes as I think they are intrinsically unfair on either the tradesperson or the client especially when dealing with repairs as you can never be too sure what you going to find - either corners get cut or tradesperson subsidises your house! I've worked estimates for twenty years and had less payment problems than I got fingers on one hand..I have also seen the consequences of shoddy/unskilled/plain criminal building work more times than I've tried to push my grade and found myself bouncing on end of a rope..so find someone you trust and pay them what they ask!

In reply to doz:
Good point about estimates vs quotes, not something I had really thought about to be honest. Don't know if it would make any difference, but you reckon I might have a bit more luck if I ask for estimates do you? I'd assumed they would offer an estimate if they felt there was uncertainty, but maybe I should be asking. Wouldn't know where to begin if I found myself presented with a final bill significantly higher without good reason though. I guess that's why you find somebody who comes recommended...

FWIW I heard back from the guy last night (does he read ukc!?) and we are fixing a day [he seems to reckon only one day now, for those saying it wasn't enough money for 2 days work...] for him to do the work.

In reply to jonny taylor: When I used to do this kind of work I offered quotations for an itemised schedule of work. It was always written in that any additional works discovered on investigation would be charged additionally.

The thing here is to make it clear that 'additional works' do not mean something the tradesman just 'forgot' but it honest additional work that it would be unreasonable for them to foresee without investigation. I.E. they take out your door cill and find the DPC is missing or buggered, or the brickwork is loose oor some other nightmare.

If you ask them to expect this kind of thing......... you have to expect it to be in the initial quote. In my current job we always say risk and reward. If you expect a contractor to take a risk, you cannot complain if they get a reward.

If a tradesman just presents you with a massive extras bill, he's taking the mickey.

Conversely, if they come to you and say, look, this is wrong and needs fixing too....... you can't go blaming them for the state of your house and expecting them to cover the cost.

Simple, innit.

I found that discussing eventualities with the client and being upfront and honest meant I got repeat business even though I was not cheap.

In reply to jonny taylor: I had a lot of work done earlier this year on a house I'd just bought. I asked for estimates on the basic job, but I was aware there would be probs be twice as much work, which there was.

The builder I choose turned out to be great. He was almost apologetic about giving me a bill for twice the estimate, but it was dead simple, he'd done twice the work in the initial estimate, I could see that and it was clear it was all necessary.

It must be dificult for the smaller buisnesses if customers try and hold them to first quote. The first quote is just good for comparisson and having them round for a chat and sussing them out.

In reply to jonny taylor:

Since I bought a house I've been DIYing almost everything, which is having an initial cost for purchase of the tools, but once I've got them next time will be cheaper. And so long as I can find the time, I find doing a good job to be quite a fulfilling way to spend a weekend. And you don't have to faff about availability, you can do it when you have time.

The one exception would be gas, which is a bit risky for me to do, but I don't have a lot of it anyway, just the heating boiler. For electrics, I would probably still DIY but involve Building Control for Part P stuff.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Trouble is, if it's sunny then that's climbing weather!

In reply to jonny taylor:
What you neeed for such a small job is just a verbal figure that's a ball park.I would just see if you can find a carpenter who is working on a house nearby, go up to him , and ask him for a quick quote.You will soon find out if he is any good by his response.

In reply to jonny taylor:

Which could also explain absence of your carpenter!

In reply to gingerdave13:

£65 is a rip off. My old (very old!) chimney sweep used to charge £15, he'd come around looking black as night, exactly as you'd expect, get on the roof, stick the brush down, clean up and leave.

He stopped doing it and I eventually found someone who was insured to go up on the roof (most aren't!). Paid £40 for someone to draw up in a plush van, spotless overalls and do the same job. That was about 5 years ago now and after that I just got a brush and did it myself.

Ben

In reply to Sharp: You are SO right. Oiks having decent working conditions just isn't on, is it?

Should listen to yourself!!!
Bet most of you wouldn't accept doing that day in day out for less than £15 an hour, would you?

In reply to jonny taylor:

open your heart and he will come to you.

In reply to jonny taylor: Don't expect one to turn up on Rainy Days or Mondays.

In reply to Papillon:
Well played. Thought your other one was good too.

In reply to jonny taylor: Yeah, that seems to have disappeared!

In reply to Wonko The Sane:

An hour! jesus if he took that long I would be worried about his health.
I'm not sure how hot your mathematics skills are Wonko but I'm pretty sure £40 per 10 minutes is more than £15 an hour, not less.

I would have happily paid more than £15 for my old chimney sweep as he was clearly a conscientious tradesman who'd been sweeping for many more years than I'd been alive. What I object to is some guy buying a brush and charging me £40 for what was, in my opinion, a poor service. Although I'm sure you were there as well and will tell me how I'm mistaken.

Ben

In reply to Sharp:

I'm pretty sure you mentioned your old chap doing a sweep for £15.

Taking into account he has to get to your house (and this is chargable as part of his running cost) and he has to get to the next job. I would be surprised even with good organisation if he was making £15ph.

Additionally, why is it not acceptable to offer a service from a decent clean van?
People can't win, if they turn out in a clapped out old van they're accused of poor image by many. I do not begrudge someone earning a living.

In reply to Wonko The Sane:

Why do you always start pointless arguments based on assumptions made about people from a short forum post? I was trying to make a quick point about the price of chimney sweeping. With it being off topic I didn't feel justified in writing an essay justifying why I had a problem with the person who charged £40.

As I just said, I would have happily paid more than £15, that was the price that he charged, I didn't force him to do it. He also lived (lives?) under a mile from my house.

I don't have a problem with what van someone drives and I don't remember ever complaining when a tradesman drove an old van. The reason I mentioned it is that I thought the guy provided a poor service for the price, he had such a problem with keeping himself clean that he left a mess in my kitchen and didn't dispose of the chimney soot himself. He struck me as the kind of person who really didn't give a f**k and yet he was charging me more than someone who I actually respected as a tradesman. If you don't want to get soot on your hands then don't become a bloody chimney sweep.

I'm happy for you that you don't "begrudge someone from earning a living" and I'm sure the world is a better place now that you've told everyone that but don't try and make me out to be some exploitative w*nker who wants to see people paid a pittance based on your own fatuous assumptions.

In reply to I like climbing:

My boss got someone in who used trustatrader - he was hopeless, but bizarrely didn't seem bothered that negative feedback would affect his ability to get work off the site. The trades seem to operate in a different dimension.

Can you imagine there being programmes running series after series of Cowboy Doctors or Cowboy Shop Assistants, yet Cowboy Builders and the like have been around since the beginning of time. How do they get away with it?

In reply to Sharp: It's not a pointless argument. It's people (like you) somehow suggesting through YOUR post that you quite happily employ people for peanuts without regard or thought to their working conditions and that somehow you're being ripped off if charged a reasonable amount for someone running a company with overheads including a nice van.
You didn't HAVE to pay £65 and appear to begrudge it.

In reply to Wonko The Sane: You obviously didn't read his post. He thought £40 was a lot so went and bought the tools to do it himself.

In reply to Wonko The Sane: it's me paying the £65, i'm not entirely sure if i'm comfortable with it. Seems a lot to be honest, but i'll wait and see what he's got to do for the job. It may be that i'll be buying the tools and doing it myself next year!

In reply to gingerdave13: That's fair enough. I did get it wrong in as much as I thought he was complaining about having paid £65. My point is not that this is a good or bad price but that it isn't unreasonable to charge such a sum considering that one appointment may take as much as 2 hours including travel time, considering that it isn't as though we're in the 70s where he would probably have ten appointments in the same street. I also have no problem with someone charging more because they choose to have nice equipment and a cleaner working environment. Reasoning being that I wouldn't like the crap conditions, why should they. But the market will decide if he's charging too much for the service. And as you've said, you've the choice of doing it yourself. If you do, fine.

It was the attitude of £15 being a 'good quote' I didn't like. And still don't like.

In reply to Wonko The Sane: "It was the attitude of £15 being a 'good quote' I didn't like. And still don't like."
He never said that. Do you understand what speech marks are?

In reply to Wonko The Sane:

We've only just begun.

In reply to Sir Chasm:

I think so? They're what you use to illustrate someone else's words as typed or spoken?
E.G.

"£65 is a rip off. My old (very old!) chimney sweep used to charge £15, he'd come around looking black as night, exactly as you'd expect, get on the roof, stick the brush down, clean up and leave.

He stopped doing it and I eventually found someone who was insured to go up on the roof (most aren't!). Paid £40 for someone to draw up in a plush van, spotless overalls and do the same job. That was about 5 years ago now and after that I just got a brush and did it myself."

That sort of thing?

In reply to jonny taylor: jonny. if you still need a carpenter - give me a ring. I know a very good local carpenter. MT

In reply to Wonko The Sane:
>

No you haven't got it. More like this sort of thing:

"As I just said, I would have happily paid more than £15, that was the price that he charged, I didn't force him to do it. He also lived (lives?) under a mile from my house."

In reply to Wonko The Sane: That's the thing, so where did he say £15 was a "good quote"?
He didn't did he? You made it up.

In reply to Papillon:

Ah, right, but that wasn't the post I first replied to, was it?

Of course, feel free to carry on amusing yourself with a bit of selective pasting though

In reply to Wonko The Sane: Nah I'm off home now, see ya.

In reply to Sir Chasm:

No, I didn't make it up. The £15 was mentioned as being 'more reasonable' This then went up to £40 which was a 'chap in a swanky van'

I don't see £45 or £65 as unreasonable and I'm quite happy for others to enjoy a reasonable lifestyle from their labours. But if (please note the 'if') you feel differently that's you. Fair enough, really. Just pleased I've no need to deal with such people.

In reply to jonny taylor:

It's difficult to find the right trades person to undertake the work or wants the job on offer sometimes, I have limited experience but can only speak about what I have seen. I notice you have someone coming to do the work now which is great.

Neighbour needed her downstairs bedroom sorting, damp and mould starting to come through the thickly painted wallpaper. So she gets go ahead from owner/landlord to get quotes, goes onto myhammer I think and starts sifting through painters/plasterers and god knows what else. Posts the job and gets interest almost immediately, I was there for the 3 quotes for morale support and to help minimise risk of being ripped off (old stories of females being ripped off when alone etc). Each quote came in between £800-£900 to start with, quite a bit of work required. 2 tipped up in signed vans the 3rd in a barely running daewoo, don't want to be prejudicial at this point but couldn't stop myself. I gave her my opinion on who she should go with and she ignores it, my choice had all his certificates in a folder with him, and also accredited by the local council to carry out work when required and proof of it. she chooses the Daewoo people not because they were the cheapest but because she managed to score some free weed of them and smoke their joints when around. Much to her dismay they wont reply to her calls or texts as the work has gone Pete Tong. They offered a years guarantee to the work and to rectify free of charge if anything went wrong but that's out of the window by the looks of it. There is a story in here somewhere, be wary of who you choose.

On another note to the chimney sweep issue, get the items and get the satisfaction and soot by doing it yourself, my brother managed to get a double ladder (if that's what it's called) for free off someone and I started to clean their windows for free, best quote he received, and to stop the cleaner they had at the time, over priced and not satisfactory work. I can't tell if they were happy because they now were getting windows done for free or if I was really doing a good job, I expect it was both. Also used the ladders to clear out the guttering on his side and the neighbours for free. They have moved away since and when I go to theirs on holiday I again do the windows and have cleaned the guttering again on both his and the neighbours house, 3-4 hour job in total as they were completely rammed with leaves and twigs.

Save money in the long term and get self satisfaction from knowing you have done a good job. On another note I think I may have just killed this thread, ooooops.

In reply to Wonko The Sane: Well if someone was used to paying £15 and had then been quoted £40, then £65 for the same job does sound like a rip off!

£15 for 10 mins work might be considered reasonable. £15 for 2 hours is something completely different. You seem to be missing the context...

In reply to Wonko The Sane:

I'm pretty sure that I didn't say £15 was "more reasonable". I said that I would have been happy to pay more than £15 for the service which is presumably something we can agree on. Unless you are saying that you would go out of your way to pay someone more.

What I did say, which you clearly disagree with is that £65 is a rip off, I made that statement based on the fact that £40 is the going rate around here. I also said I was unwilling to pay £40, which is surely my choice.

If people are happy to pay £40 then that is fine, it just happens to be more than I'm willing to pay. That doesn't mean I don't want people to make a living, that means they probably earn more than me and I'm happy to do the job myself.

I understand that they have to travel and that chimney sweeps will travel to more remote places than where I live but people will always want their chimneys swept and if the price isn't right they'll go elsewhere, you sound like you're suggesting that to do so is to deny others to enjoy a reasonable lifestyle. It isn't, it's market forces and successful businesses will survive, which chimney sweeps clearly do.

Oh and I realise we're not in the 1970s but the majority of houses on my street have coal/wood burning fires, all presumably needing sweeping so it's hardly a dying trade.

Ben

In reply to mp3ferret: if he's that good he ain't going to want to do some poxy one day job for some left wing climbing ponce. he'll be on site with the lads getting it done. fact. all the best tradesmen work on site.

In reply to EeeByGum:
Interesting to hear. I've been lucky so far with them but you make a good point.....