This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Trad Climbing in the African sun - the perfect winter destinationRead more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4974
In reply to UKC Articles:
Nice one Emma, looks stunning, i'll be there next year. I'd better buy the guide.
Nice one Emma, looks stunning, i'll be there next year. I'd better buy the guide.
In reply to UKC Articles:
Looks like an interesting guide. Surprised to see no mention of the Oxford dominated group who were exploring the area extensively around the same sort of time. Be interested to know how much duplication there is between this new guidebook and the one they published 2-3 years back...
Looks like an interesting guide. Surprised to see no mention of the Oxford dominated group who were exploring the area extensively around the same sort of time. Be interested to know how much duplication there is between this new guidebook and the one they published 2-3 years back...
In reply to AJM: it does seem a little self-serving to have neglected to mention in the article that a definitive guide covering exactly the same areas and costing half as much was published less than two years ago!
Presumably this new guide is also based on the Amandiers new-routes book so they'll cover exactly the same ground?
Presumably this new guide is also based on the Amandiers new-routes book so they'll cover exactly the same ground?
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
I know Steves website tried to be definitive and so his guide presumably was much the same. I don't know all the crag names mentioned in the article, so there are a few I recognise but many I don't, possibly areas further afield not covered in Steves guide or perhaps development that has been kept quiet and out of the new routes book, or perhaps a lot of new development since Steves guide.
I suppose all will be revealed when the two guides are in the shops next to each other. I think the fact that Steve et al don't even get a mention is the bit which gets me, almost as though they (and I think they did the first new routes in a lot of those valleys like Anfantizar etc) aren't worthy of mention...
I know Steves website tried to be definitive and so his guide presumably was much the same. I don't know all the crag names mentioned in the article, so there are a few I recognise but many I don't, possibly areas further afield not covered in Steves guide or perhaps development that has been kept quiet and out of the new routes book, or perhaps a lot of new development since Steves guide.
I suppose all will be revealed when the two guides are in the shops next to each other. I think the fact that Steve et al don't even get a mention is the bit which gets me, almost as though they (and I think they did the first new routes in a lot of those valleys like Anfantizar etc) aren't worthy of mention...
In reply to Jamie Wakeham: Well, give them the benefit of the doubt: lots of new routes have probably been climbed in the last two years, and this guidebook does seem to be a bit bigger than the previous one covering the same area. Also it is more expensive, but not quite twice the price (at £27.50 +£2.50 pp vs £16.99 +£3.99 for the 2011 add-on update for Moroccan Anti-Atlas North).
But yes, it does seem a bit churlish not to even mention that there is another guidebook, or to acknowledge any of the hundreds of new routes put up by the Oxford group.
But yes, it does seem a bit churlish not to even mention that there is another guidebook, or to acknowledge any of the hundreds of new routes put up by the Oxford group.
In reply to Hagalaz: You think so? That would confirm all my prejudices about Tabs ...
In reply to Sesh: Fair enough - I'd forgotten that there was a charge for the 2011 new routes supplement. So more of 2/3rds the price. Steve has ~900 routes, this new guide ~1000, so possibly the discrepancy represents information never recorded at Les Amandiers, or new information recorded since the supplement in 2011.
I did find "Emma and Paul have taken over the work..." to be something of an airbrushing job, though!
I did find "Emma and Paul have taken over the work..." to be something of an airbrushing job, though!
In reply to UKC Articles: In response to some of the previous postings, a quick glance through Paul and Emma's guide will reveal that they do make mention of Steve Broadbent's (and friends') new routing activities in the area. He is also mentioned in the aknowledgements.
The new guide is a big improvement on Steve's for a number of reasons. The 'Tizi' escarpment which was left out of Steve's guide is now included. This is a great sector with some of the best routes in the whole region. Paul and Emma have been able to benefit from feedback from an increasing number of repeat ascents of various routes and so a more accurate view of grades and quality is presented in their guide. There has been a rapid rate of development even in the short period since Steve's guide. The new guide is bang up to date.
If you're into trad climbing and especially trad new routing its a great area to visit and I would thoroughly recommend Paul and Emma's guide.
The new guide is a big improvement on Steve's for a number of reasons. The 'Tizi' escarpment which was left out of Steve's guide is now included. This is a great sector with some of the best routes in the whole region. Paul and Emma have been able to benefit from feedback from an increasing number of repeat ascents of various routes and so a more accurate view of grades and quality is presented in their guide. There has been a rapid rate of development even in the short period since Steve's guide. The new guide is bang up to date.
If you're into trad climbing and especially trad new routing its a great area to visit and I would thoroughly recommend Paul and Emma's guide.
In reply to UKC Articles:
Guide arrived the other day, really well put together. Me and my mate are going out at christmas, cant wait.
Guide arrived the other day, really well put together. Me and my mate are going out at christmas, cant wait.
In reply to Hagalaz: explain "filthy tabs" - this is a public forum and it would be helpful to know what your comment means
In reply to pete johnson: it's a joke. People from Oxford University frequently refer to those from Cambridge as 'tabs', as they get to put (Cantab) after their degree to indicate they took it at Cambridge.
The reference is to the fact that they met some Cambridge climbers out in Tafraoute during one of the many trips when they were researching Steve's guidebook - though I wasn't on that particular trip and so have no idea if Emma and Paul were actually among them. It's not particularly helpful to the thread, anyway.
The reference is to the fact that they met some Cambridge climbers out in Tafraoute during one of the many trips when they were researching Steve's guidebook - though I wasn't on that particular trip and so have no idea if Emma and Paul were actually among them. It's not particularly helpful to the thread, anyway.
In reply to pete johnson: Hello Pete: I am sure the new guidebook is better and more up-to-date than the old one, as you say. Newer versions of guidebooks generally are. I also don't doubt that Steve's been acknowledged in the guide itself.
However, my comment was purely in reaction to this particular article on UKC, which name-checks the Cicerone guide (which is to a different area), but makes no mention at all of a lot of previous work upon which Morocco Rock must be largely based.
I understand that there are commercial concerns and this article is essentially a long advertisement for a competing product. But it still feels churlish to me.
However, my comment was purely in reaction to this particular article on UKC, which name-checks the Cicerone guide (which is to a different area), but makes no mention at all of a lot of previous work upon which Morocco Rock must be largely based.
I understand that there are commercial concerns and this article is essentially a long advertisement for a competing product. But it still feels churlish to me.
In reply to UKC Articles:
Hi, Has anyone a topo for Akchour.
> Trad Climbing in the African sun - the perfect winter destination
>
> Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4974
>
> Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4974
Hi, Has anyone a topo for Akchour.
In reply to Sesh:
Your comment implies that Morocco Rock is based on Steve Broadbent's earlier guide. This is not the case. The authors researched info for the guide independently, using original route descriptions from the first ascent logbooks at the Amandiers hotel and at the Kabah Tizourgane. They also received information directly from many first ascensionists (including Steve Broadbent who provided information and useful comments). All photo topos and maps are original.
Sorry to blather on but I do think you're comments are a little unfair
and uninformed.
The main thing though, is that it is a great area for trad climbing and the new guide hopefully will attract more climbers to enjoy it.
> However, my comment was purely in reaction to this particular article on UKC, which name-checks the Cicerone guide (which is to a different area), but makes no mention at all of a lot of previous work upon which Morocco Rock must be largely based.
Seth,Your comment implies that Morocco Rock is based on Steve Broadbent's earlier guide. This is not the case. The authors researched info for the guide independently, using original route descriptions from the first ascent logbooks at the Amandiers hotel and at the Kabah Tizourgane. They also received information directly from many first ascensionists (including Steve Broadbent who provided information and useful comments). All photo topos and maps are original.
Sorry to blather on but I do think you're comments are a little unfair
and uninformed.
The main thing though, is that it is a great area for trad climbing and the new guide hopefully will attract more climbers to enjoy it.
In reply to all: "oxford dominated group who were exploring the area extensively." There are many more climbers who have been exploring in the area apart from the oxford group (and before they arrived here) who do not get a mention in this article. And if you take out the routes at Anammer (no offence but not what climbers really come to Morocco for) and the vertical division of its adjacent cliff I have a feeling this "hundreds of routes"(an exaggeration anyway) would be vastly reduced. Yes, Steve has discovered many cliffs (very good effort), but so have many others you probably won't have even heard of (perhaps due to a somewhat curtailed and rather biased historical in the previous guide). "Duplication" see Pete johnsons comments..we can confirm all of that. In fact work on Morocco Rock began with Ben Wintringham and his grandiose efforts towards collating everything and creating (a rather futuristic for some) website - he was always intending to bring out a guide and began work on it in 2004 - the fact that Steve brought out his first (and I have no doubt used much of Bens material from the site is competition for you, as stated later in the thread. Morocco Rock covers areas not in Steves guide, the whole Toxin Escarpment to the north of Jebel Taskra and many other more newly developed crags. I do get tired of climbers quibbling about guidebook prices. Go and write one, then see if you feel the same about buying a few pints of beer or a guidebook giving wonderful access to a whole wealth of climbing somewhere new. I paid £23-95 Steves book. Needless to say the price of obselete guides become greatly reduced. No we are not tabs, just tree surgeons from Cardiff, who spend far too much time writing guidebooks (instead of climbing the routes inside).
In reply to Emma Alsford:
Which was/is Bens website? When I went to the area in 2008/9 (I forget which!) the only source of information that I found online was Steves website which was in effect an online guidebook to the entire area now covered by his guidebook. I'm surprised and embarassed to have missed an entire alternative source of information!
If your "curtailed and rather biased historical in the previous guide" comment refers to Steves guide then I'm afraid you will probably know better than I - I visited before the guide came out so have only ever thumbed through it in shops, mainly to see whether our new routes were there or not and what the pictures look like. Given this comment and your dismissal of so many of their routes, I suppose it's hardly surprising that you didn't deem them worthy of mention in the advertorial (adverticle? Hard to know what the right word is) above.
I am curious to see the guide when it hits the shops round here. It was always somewhere I said I'd go back to, although goodness knows when (unless I'm unemployed come March, in which case who knows...).
Which was/is Bens website? When I went to the area in 2008/9 (I forget which!) the only source of information that I found online was Steves website which was in effect an online guidebook to the entire area now covered by his guidebook. I'm surprised and embarassed to have missed an entire alternative source of information!
If your "curtailed and rather biased historical in the previous guide" comment refers to Steves guide then I'm afraid you will probably know better than I - I visited before the guide came out so have only ever thumbed through it in shops, mainly to see whether our new routes were there or not and what the pictures look like. Given this comment and your dismissal of so many of their routes, I suppose it's hardly surprising that you didn't deem them worthy of mention in the advertorial (adverticle? Hard to know what the right word is) above.
I am curious to see the guide when it hits the shops round here. It was always somewhere I said I'd go back to, although goodness knows when (unless I'm unemployed come March, in which case who knows...).
In reply to Emma Alsford: There are many things you say that I completely agree with, and many that I really don't. Rather than get into a detailed argument about each one, all I'll say is that the tone of your comment suggests that this wasn't an inadvertent oversight but more of a deliberate snub. Maybe you have your reasons for that. But it rather confirms my original opinion re the churlishness.
PS: Apologies for the Tabs joke, which is after all not even particularly funny. And I don't think your guidebook is overpriced.
PS: Apologies for the Tabs joke, which is after all not even particularly funny. And I don't think your guidebook is overpriced.
In reply to pete johnson:
Not Seth I'm afraid, though an easy mistake to make.
I agree.
> Seth,
Not Seth I'm afraid, though an easy mistake to make.
> The main thing though, is that it is a great area for trad climbing
I agree.
In reply to AJM: www.tafraoute-climbing.com but it may not be up now as his widow was intending to shut it down at some point - a pity no one is up for taking it over..Ben pit one hell of a lot of work into it (intended for phone apps etc-he was always ahead of his time.!) - ithink he started it around 2007/2008.
Apologies for typos..doing this from my HTC abroad..should be Tizi Escarpment.
Not meaning to be dismissive at all w.r.t article..was done in a hurry and I can't always mention every first ascentionist and their routes..and it is my article and my favourite climbs! Just putting climbers right about their 'facts' that's all..the Anammer reference was simply because I cannot get excited about these rather short routes in Morocco (relatively speaking) so I'm hardly going to write about them with enthusiasm! And Steve has done some really good routes out here..if you notice two of his classics are on the list of recommended routes at the top of the article. I didn't mention mike Mortimer either or Jim fotheringham or Dan donovan or Neil Adams etc etc all who have also put up huge amounts of fantastic routes (there are just too many)
Yes, get back out there..still loads to do!
Apologies for typos..doing this from my HTC abroad..should be Tizi Escarpment.
Not meaning to be dismissive at all w.r.t article..was done in a hurry and I can't always mention every first ascentionist and their routes..and it is my article and my favourite climbs! Just putting climbers right about their 'facts' that's all..the Anammer reference was simply because I cannot get excited about these rather short routes in Morocco (relatively speaking) so I'm hardly going to write about them with enthusiasm! And Steve has done some really good routes out here..if you notice two of his classics are on the list of recommended routes at the top of the article. I didn't mention mike Mortimer either or Jim fotheringham or Dan donovan or Neil Adams etc etc all who have also put up huge amounts of fantastic routes (there are just too many)
Yes, get back out there..still loads to do!
In reply to Sesh: Not snub no, you're reading far too much into it..the article was written in a hurry and its hard to be continually creative when you have written a few articles about a place..see above but I am obviously going to write about what interests me and the rather short routes at places like Anammer and Atkil Edge do not, and make up a large part of your over exaggerated 'hundreds' figure. I think Steve has done some great routes (see above) and so has mike Mortimer, Jim Fotheringham, Dan Donovan, Pete Johnson etc etc (too many to mention (shit I forgot Paul..) Anyway you surely get that point..all these climbers have dome huge amounts out here.
As for the guide..yes I wrote the article to help publish our new guide, of course, which Steve, along with many others (who we approached..yes we approached to get accurate information and to be inclusive, w.r.t historical, photos etc to endeavour to create the best guide possible..but I see no need to advertise Steves guide especially here..he does plenty of that all over ukc and his website..and his article on Morocco/his website/info on ukc etc did/dies not advertise Bens site and I'm sure will not advertise thr brand new up to date guide! Quite frankly, don't see why he should and I certainly would not expect it.
And by the way, if you read pauls recent article on Morocco, written about a month ago, I think he mentions steves guide..it just depends I suppose on what your writing about and what you are focusing on at the time.
Go and do Leaving Las Vegas and Scimitar Ridge and then Gritstone Fugitive and you may get what I was on about above.
Happy Climbing
As for the guide..yes I wrote the article to help publish our new guide, of course, which Steve, along with many others (who we approached..yes we approached to get accurate information and to be inclusive, w.r.t historical, photos etc to endeavour to create the best guide possible..but I see no need to advertise Steves guide especially here..he does plenty of that all over ukc and his website..and his article on Morocco/his website/info on ukc etc did/dies not advertise Bens site and I'm sure will not advertise thr brand new up to date guide! Quite frankly, don't see why he should and I certainly would not expect it.
And by the way, if you read pauls recent article on Morocco, written about a month ago, I think he mentions steves guide..it just depends I suppose on what your writing about and what you are focusing on at the time.
Go and do Leaving Las Vegas and Scimitar Ridge and then Gritstone Fugitive and you may get what I was on about above.
Happy Climbing
In reply to Sesh: meant to say which Steve helped with..sorry, HTC!
From UKC's point of view, we love people who contribute great articles like this. Emma was easy to work with and helped at all stages of the article. She has also agreed to help maintain the UKC Logbook crag database for Morocco as a result of us discovering that it had a few gaps in it, which is great.
The other guidebooks are mentioned in the side-bar of the article. Emma received no payment for this article hence we are perfectly happy to support her book by giving that a little plug.
We have a review of the book which we will be publishing shortly.
Alan
In reply to Emma Alsford:
A bit pissed that all the routes i put up in the Yeravinalaf area don't get a mention.
A bit pissed that all the routes i put up in the Yeravinalaf area don't get a mention.
In reply to Mr Mark Stephen Davies:
Where is that Mark? I've not heard of it.Is it in the area covered by the new guide - ie North side of the Anti Atlas? Did you write the routes up in the new route books in The Amandiers Hotel or at The Kasbah Tizourgane?
> (In reply to Emma Alsford)
>
> A bit pissed that all the routes i put up in the Yeravinalaf area don't get a mention.
>
> A bit pissed that all the routes i put up in the Yeravinalaf area don't get a mention.
Where is that Mark? I've not heard of it.Is it in the area covered by the new guide - ie North side of the Anti Atlas? Did you write the routes up in the new route books in The Amandiers Hotel or at The Kasbah Tizourgane?
In reply to pete johnson: "Yeravinalaf" read that out loud and a bit slower.
In reply to TobyA: I fell for that one hook, line and sinker!
In reply to pete johnson:
Sorry!
Emma texted me and approved
> (In reply to TobyA) I fell for that one hook, line and sinker!
Sorry!
Emma texted me and approved
In reply to silo: you could try the climbing atlas (I know they have taghia) although I have a feeling they only have brief crag descriptions..Jeremy at climbmorocco.com is always very helpful and I think they have something on their site about akchour, but again, not sure about topos..good luck!
It's a beautiful guidebook - well done and thank you, Emma and Paul. I received my pre-ordered copy with much excitement.
There's no place for any suggestions of air-brushing or basing anything on anything else, other than the information in the new-route books at the Hotel Les Amandiers in Tafraoute, and the Kasbah Tizourgane. Sifting through this information, collating historical details and putting together the first guidebook to a new region (which Morocco Rock is for the Tizi Escarpment) is a massive, thankless, and often frustrating task.
To put things into perspective, there were almost 200 new routes reported within 6 months of publication of Moroccan Anti-Atlas North, so the increase in route numbers should hardly be a surprise.
As Emma has already eluded to, there was plenty of collaboration and no hard feeling between us, particularly on Mike's brilliantly written historical information!
Can we stop the bickering and just go climbing? Tafraoute season is already upon us!
There's no place for any suggestions of air-brushing or basing anything on anything else, other than the information in the new-route books at the Hotel Les Amandiers in Tafraoute, and the Kasbah Tizourgane. Sifting through this information, collating historical details and putting together the first guidebook to a new region (which Morocco Rock is for the Tizi Escarpment) is a massive, thankless, and often frustrating task.
To put things into perspective, there were almost 200 new routes reported within 6 months of publication of Moroccan Anti-Atlas North, so the increase in route numbers should hardly be a surprise.
As Emma has already eluded to, there was plenty of collaboration and no hard feeling between us, particularly on Mike's brilliantly written historical information!
Can we stop the bickering and just go climbing? Tafraoute season is already upon us!
Fair enough. I wasn't commenting on what routes may or may not have been included - simply agreeing that it seemed a somewhat commercially minded decision not to mention either you or Anti Atlas North in what purported to be an article about climbing in Morocco rather than an advert for Morocco Rock. Agree it's not a point worth bickering over.
Emma - sorry - I can see I've been a bit snappy. I'm in the middle of giving up smoking and am a little on edge! My apologies.
Emma - sorry - I can see I've been a bit snappy. I'm in the middle of giving up smoking and am a little on edge! My apologies.
In reply to UKC Articles: hi Emma, do you know of any single pitch sport routes that are good around Xmas time? Cheers, nick
In reply to UKC Articles:
Clearly Steve is right and there's nothing to be gained from bickering. So please don't think that's what I'm doing ...
... but since you mentioned it twice, I did just want to point out - in an entirely friendly, by-the-way-did-you-know-that manner - that my claim about "hundreds of routes by the Oxford group" really isn't an exaggeration. You could discount not just Anammer, but also Ksar Rock, the Eagle crags and the whole of the rest of the Afantinzar valley, and the figure would still be in the hundreds (i.e., 200 or more). Including Anammer and Ksar Rock obviously increases the number further. Steve on his own probably accounts for more than half of that total, but the "Oxford group" actually consists of at least 30 different climbers from the OUMC who have visited the area since 2007.
Obviously it's impossible to tell simply from the names of the first ascensionists whether they are affiliated with a certain club or not, so I'm not suggesting you should have known this. And the information is unrelated to either your guidebook or the article. So this is just for future reference ...
Clearly Steve is right and there's nothing to be gained from bickering. So please don't think that's what I'm doing ...
... but since you mentioned it twice, I did just want to point out - in an entirely friendly, by-the-way-did-you-know-that manner - that my claim about "hundreds of routes by the Oxford group" really isn't an exaggeration. You could discount not just Anammer, but also Ksar Rock, the Eagle crags and the whole of the rest of the Afantinzar valley, and the figure would still be in the hundreds (i.e., 200 or more). Including Anammer and Ksar Rock obviously increases the number further. Steve on his own probably accounts for more than half of that total, but the "Oxford group" actually consists of at least 30 different climbers from the OUMC who have visited the area since 2007.
Obviously it's impossible to tell simply from the names of the first ascensionists whether they are affiliated with a certain club or not, so I'm not suggesting you should have known this. And the information is unrelated to either your guidebook or the article. So this is just for future reference ...
In reply to Sesh:
I think it was even earlier than that. I believe climbs such as http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=229265 date from Easter 2006.
> 30 different climbers from the OUMC who have visited the area since 2007.
I think it was even earlier than that. I believe climbs such as http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=229265 date from Easter 2006.
In reply to UKC Articles:
Paul, when are you coming back to El Potrero Chico to clip some bolts?
http://magicedspotrerochico.com
Paul, when are you coming back to El Potrero Chico to clip some bolts?
http://magicedspotrerochico.com
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...