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Have just bought a copy of the Rockfax Peak Bouldering Guide and am totally impressed, its so much easier to find the problems and boulders than most other guides I'v looked at. What I keep looking for but not really finding is the equivalent for Yorkshire north of the peak : a definitive guide to the problems at the crags, not just a selection of the best problems, birds eye diagram so I can find what boulder I'm at (or am looking for) combined with a nice clear pic of the line itself, plus those rockfax style symbols or at least some description in the text (ie more than "problem 2: just left of problem 3" would be really nice.
Does does such a thing exist for yorkshire north of the Peak? have got yorkshire gritstone vol 1 but dont find it that great for locating the problems, and not all the boulders have pics
Does does such a thing exist for yorkshire north of the Peak? have got yorkshire gritstone vol 1 but dont find it that great for locating the problems, and not all the boulders have pics
2
In reply to pebbles:
Have you looked at the definitive grit guides. One out and one due within the month?
Have you looked at the definitive grit guides. One out and one due within the month?
In reply to pebbles:
There isn't a definitive guide, the Yorkshire grit volumes you mentioned are unfortunately your best bet.
There isn't a definitive guide, the Yorkshire grit volumes you mentioned are unfortunately your best bet.
In reply to pebbles:
The definitive guides are your best bet, the second one is out now. Surprised you struggle to use them, I thought they were very clear.
The definitive guides are your best bet, the second one is out now. Surprised you struggle to use them, I thought they were very clear.
In reply to Offwidth:
yeah, I'v got yorkshire grit part 1 and I'll be killing innocent bystanders to get at yorkshire grit 2. But theyre not really definitive bouldering guides are they? more definitive routes (and do a brilliant job of that, I think the grit guides are fabulous) plus selected boulder problems. I'v got yorkshire grit and yorkshire gritstone bouldering, but neither of them seem to do as good a job for purely bouldering as the peak bouldering guide - I end up carrying both round
yeah, I'v got yorkshire grit part 1 and I'll be killing innocent bystanders to get at yorkshire grit 2. But theyre not really definitive bouldering guides are they? more definitive routes (and do a brilliant job of that, I think the grit guides are fabulous) plus selected boulder problems. I'v got yorkshire grit and yorkshire gritstone bouldering, but neither of them seem to do as good a job for purely bouldering as the peak bouldering guide - I end up carrying both round
In reply to Arms Cliff:
unfortunately I must be just thick;-D. But places like caley can be utterly bewildering to find boulders, (and to catalogue them too I expect), even more so than brimham, and I still really struggle, specially as there seem to be quite a lot of things which havnt found their way in...theres loads of stuff we've ended up playing on which is obviously well used but couldnt find in the guides
unfortunately I must be just thick;-D. But places like caley can be utterly bewildering to find boulders, (and to catalogue them too I expect), even more so than brimham, and I still really struggle, specially as there seem to be quite a lot of things which havnt found their way in...theres loads of stuff we've ended up playing on which is obviously well used but couldnt find in the guides
In reply to pebbles:
No need for any murders, vol ii available now http://www.cordee.co.uk/Yorkshire-Gritstone-Volume-2---Ilkley-to-Widdop-det...
No need for any murders, vol ii available now http://www.cordee.co.uk/Yorkshire-Gritstone-Volume-2---Ilkley-to-Widdop-det...
In reply to pebbles:
None available I am afraid the new YMC guides are selective and far from comprehensive (ace though they are)
The TC guides are only good if you climb 7a+ and above and the old Rockfax is good but old and doesn't cover enough crags..
There is room for a Yorkshire Bouldering Guide I think (including limestone)...
However no-one I talk to has the stomach for it just yet
P
None available I am afraid the new YMC guides are selective and far from comprehensive (ace though they are)
The TC guides are only good if you climb 7a+ and above and the old Rockfax is good but old and doesn't cover enough crags..
There is room for a Yorkshire Bouldering Guide I think (including limestone)...
However no-one I talk to has the stomach for it just yet
P
In reply to pebbles:
In what sense are they not as definitive as anything else? No bouldering guide I've ever seen has been fully definitive as it would be huge and full of pointless variants etc. Anything left out is easy and/or minor or very new or very obscure.
In what sense are they not as definitive as anything else? No bouldering guide I've ever seen has been fully definitive as it would be huge and full of pointless variants etc. Anything left out is easy and/or minor or very new or very obscure.
In reply to peteJ23:
There are way more problems in the new YMC guides than the old Rockfax and pretty much as many on the crags covered by Rockfax (with new stuff not in before and any gaps being really minor problems).
There are way more problems in the new YMC guides than the old Rockfax and pretty much as many on the crags covered by Rockfax (with new stuff not in before and any gaps being really minor problems).
In reply to Offwidth:
Not true. Rockfax is by far the most complete for the areas it covers...
Don't get me wrong, as a general guide to Yorkshire the new YMC guides are mint.
They are not however specialist bouldering guides like the comparable in the Peak, or the New lancs guide or like Lees upcoming guide to the NYM.
But the YMC guides didnt set out to provide this cover...
they are not however Definitive
Not true. Rockfax is by far the most complete for the areas it covers...
Don't get me wrong, as a general guide to Yorkshire the new YMC guides are mint.
They are not however specialist bouldering guides like the comparable in the Peak, or the New lancs guide or like Lees upcoming guide to the NYM.
But the YMC guides didnt set out to provide this cover...
they are not however Definitive
In reply to peteJ23:
yes, what pete said, I am in no way griping about the new YMC guides, they are things of loveliness and do what they should - provide a definitive guide to yorkshire grit trad routes - exellently. If they provided the same level of cover for all the bouldering problems too, they would weigh in at around 4 volumes, which would be nonsense as a lot of their potential customers only want routes. And that, I put to you m'lud, is why I would love a dedicated and definitive yorkshire gritstone bouldering guide too
How about it, Mr Craggs?
yes, what pete said, I am in no way griping about the new YMC guides, they are things of loveliness and do what they should - provide a definitive guide to yorkshire grit trad routes - exellently. If they provided the same level of cover for all the bouldering problems too, they would weigh in at around 4 volumes, which would be nonsense as a lot of their potential customers only want routes. And that, I put to you m'lud, is why I would love a dedicated and definitive yorkshire gritstone bouldering guide too
How about it, Mr Craggs?
Post edited at 17:05
1
In reply to peteJ23:
I've got all the guides and think YMC and Rockfax are very similar. Give me some concrete examples of good easier problems ignored in significant numbers rather than just implying what you say is absolute truth.
Caley roadside Stile area is a good example where Rockfax do list more. These include the following stuff just above the wall (which are left out of YMC): The Halo V2 a pretty pointless traverse on Our Father; two poor 4b's and an artificial V1 on The Stile; a poor 4c and a poor V0 on Fugee La/ Mask;.... yet further up as the easier bouldering improves coverage is pretty much the same in YMC. There are plenty of variations and even more minor problems on the same boulders unlisted anywhere that would be daft to include in a 'definitive' guidebook.
As for Lancs I've played extensively on lower grade problems at Blackstone Edge following Marc C introducing the area to me when there was unwritten agreement not to list stuff there. I'll be amazed if more than half of this made it into the acclaimed new guide, as you could almost fill a volume from the one venue. The same applies to Moorland stuff I've explored extensively, say at West Nab or Standedge or Pule Hill. Our Offwidth site lists tons of worthwhile lower grade stuff not in any guide on the eastern edges. There is no such thing nor indeed any sense in a fully definitive bouldering guide as it all becomes counting angels on a pinhead.
I've got all the guides and think YMC and Rockfax are very similar. Give me some concrete examples of good easier problems ignored in significant numbers rather than just implying what you say is absolute truth.
Caley roadside Stile area is a good example where Rockfax do list more. These include the following stuff just above the wall (which are left out of YMC): The Halo V2 a pretty pointless traverse on Our Father; two poor 4b's and an artificial V1 on The Stile; a poor 4c and a poor V0 on Fugee La/ Mask;.... yet further up as the easier bouldering improves coverage is pretty much the same in YMC. There are plenty of variations and even more minor problems on the same boulders unlisted anywhere that would be daft to include in a 'definitive' guidebook.
As for Lancs I've played extensively on lower grade problems at Blackstone Edge following Marc C introducing the area to me when there was unwritten agreement not to list stuff there. I'll be amazed if more than half of this made it into the acclaimed new guide, as you could almost fill a volume from the one venue. The same applies to Moorland stuff I've explored extensively, say at West Nab or Standedge or Pule Hill. Our Offwidth site lists tons of worthwhile lower grade stuff not in any guide on the eastern edges. There is no such thing nor indeed any sense in a fully definitive bouldering guide as it all becomes counting angels on a pinhead.
Post edited at 19:27
In reply to pebbles:
We would love to give Yorkshire bouldering the same treatment that we gave the Peak but we have a pretty full schedule at the moment and it is unlikely to happen for a while I'm afraid.
If we do ever get round to it, then it is unlikely to be one of Chris's books!
Alan
> How about it, Mr Craggs?
We would love to give Yorkshire bouldering the same treatment that we gave the Peak but we have a pretty full schedule at the moment and it is unlikely to happen for a while I'm afraid.
If we do ever get round to it, then it is unlikely to be one of Chris's books!
Alan
1
In reply to Offwidth:
Yes, there is a kilometre of rock, albeit quite broken in parts. Listing absolutely everything would be a guidebook in itself, as you say. There are tons of short 2's and 3's and 4's I haven't included, though I do think that above font 5 and certainly above 6 the guide covers almost everything. At roughly 20 pages for the Blackstone Edge chapter, there is enough to keep most people going for a few years!
p.s. I was never aware of any unwritten agreement! Marc never mentioned anything of this when Gareth Wallis and I met up with him about a decade ago to check a few things for Gareth's topo. In fact (correct me if I'm wrong) I think Marc was actually working on a topo in previous years, but had abandoned the project.
p.p.s. pebbles, nevermind Yorkshire north of the peak, you should check out Lancashire north of the peak! Offwidth says there is an acclaimed bouldering guidebook available for the area, and who am I to disagree?
> As for Lancs I've played extensively on lower grade problems at Blackstone Edge following Marc C introducing the area to me when there was unwritten agreement not to list stuff there. I'll be amazed if more than half of this made it into the acclaimed new guide, as you could almost fill a volume from the one venue. The same applies to Moorland stuff I've explored extensively, say at West Nab or Standedge or Pule Hill. Our Offwidth site lists tons of worthwhile lower grade stuff not in any guide on the eastern edges. There is no such thing nor indeed any sense in a fully definitive bouldering guide as it all becomes counting angels on a pinhead.
Yes, there is a kilometre of rock, albeit quite broken in parts. Listing absolutely everything would be a guidebook in itself, as you say. There are tons of short 2's and 3's and 4's I haven't included, though I do think that above font 5 and certainly above 6 the guide covers almost everything. At roughly 20 pages for the Blackstone Edge chapter, there is enough to keep most people going for a few years!
p.s. I was never aware of any unwritten agreement! Marc never mentioned anything of this when Gareth Wallis and I met up with him about a decade ago to check a few things for Gareth's topo. In fact (correct me if I'm wrong) I think Marc was actually working on a topo in previous years, but had abandoned the project.
p.p.s. pebbles, nevermind Yorkshire north of the peak, you should check out Lancashire north of the peak! Offwidth says there is an acclaimed bouldering guidebook available for the area, and who am I to disagree?
Post edited at 03:14
1
In reply to robin mueller:
the forest of bowland looks nice, but the quarries dont really appeal. Went to Wilton once and was underwhelmed, Wilton1 looked like nice climbing but all a bit marshy, mosquito ridden and post industrial. Wilton 3 was just meh ... mediocre climbing in a scruffy bit of quarry owned by a shooting club and populated mainly by their litter
the forest of bowland looks nice, but the quarries dont really appeal. Went to Wilton once and was underwhelmed, Wilton1 looked like nice climbing but all a bit marshy, mosquito ridden and post industrial. Wilton 3 was just meh ... mediocre climbing in a scruffy bit of quarry owned by a shooting club and populated mainly by their litter
In reply to Offwidth:
I was going to ignore that since its so obviously an old school entrenched "Establishment" position to take.
However I reckon that unless people challenge you your last word will be just that.
Without doing the individual problems opening the guidebooks at A for Almscliff, Rockfax details many more problems, B for Brimham, Rockfax details many more problems..............
Whether these problems are "not good" or "too easy" is something I would like to make my mind up about rather than having someone decide for me.
I suggest from your protectionist attitude you have some personal interest/investment in the YMC guides.
Thank you, they are really good.......
However they do not provide an easy to use concise guide to just the bouldering in Yorkshire
Which is all I/we are saying.
Seems we have both stated our cases...
That's enough for me
Take it easy life's too short
I was going to ignore that since its so obviously an old school entrenched "Establishment" position to take.
However I reckon that unless people challenge you your last word will be just that.
Without doing the individual problems opening the guidebooks at A for Almscliff, Rockfax details many more problems, B for Brimham, Rockfax details many more problems..............
Whether these problems are "not good" or "too easy" is something I would like to make my mind up about rather than having someone decide for me.
I suggest from your protectionist attitude you have some personal interest/investment in the YMC guides.
Thank you, they are really good.......
However they do not provide an easy to use concise guide to just the bouldering in Yorkshire
Which is all I/we are saying.
Seems we have both stated our cases...
That's enough for me
Take it easy life's too short
In reply to peteJ23:
You seem to be missing my main point, which is simply that there is no such thing as a (fully inclusive) definitive bouldering guide anywhere and that all three publishers could justify the loose use of the word definitive as much as it means anything. Look at the actual problems that are missing from YMC and included in Rockfax and compare them with the quality of other (including countless eliminate) problems climbed by locals at the same venues that are listed nowhere as yet. Also compare them with great problems at all grades in many venues in YMC that were not covered in Rockfax. If Rockfax produced a new two volume guide to yorkshire things might become different but at present YMC offers the best covereage whatever your grade. The old Rockfax still has an edge if you want a bit more scrappy lower grade stuff (that is listed in a book so you can tick it) at the big name venues it does cover, because you dont want to try new places. Until the YMC release it was the best guide for lower grade boulderers and a stonking guide at that.
You seem to be missing my main point, which is simply that there is no such thing as a (fully inclusive) definitive bouldering guide anywhere and that all three publishers could justify the loose use of the word definitive as much as it means anything. Look at the actual problems that are missing from YMC and included in Rockfax and compare them with the quality of other (including countless eliminate) problems climbed by locals at the same venues that are listed nowhere as yet. Also compare them with great problems at all grades in many venues in YMC that were not covered in Rockfax. If Rockfax produced a new two volume guide to yorkshire things might become different but at present YMC offers the best covereage whatever your grade. The old Rockfax still has an edge if you want a bit more scrappy lower grade stuff (that is listed in a book so you can tick it) at the big name venues it does cover, because you dont want to try new places. Until the YMC release it was the best guide for lower grade boulderers and a stonking guide at that.
Post edited at 11:03
1
In reply to robin mueller:
Hopefully I can get a signed copy tomorrow and personally congratulate you on a job well done as I'm with the in-laws in Brighouse and hope to pop over. What's your plan B if the weather is as shite as the forecast.
I wasnt trying to imply the inclusion of Blackstone Edge had any controversy and yes I think Marc was considering a topo but I think that was after others were doing the same. My pottering up there was a long time back before that and Im not local so I dont know why the attitude to listing existed.
Hopefully I can get a signed copy tomorrow and personally congratulate you on a job well done as I'm with the in-laws in Brighouse and hope to pop over. What's your plan B if the weather is as shite as the forecast.
I wasnt trying to imply the inclusion of Blackstone Edge had any controversy and yes I think Marc was considering a topo but I think that was after others were doing the same. My pottering up there was a long time back before that and Im not local so I dont know why the attitude to listing existed.
In reply to Offwidth:
The YMC guides are awesome and a job well done. I particularly like that so many yorkshire climbers and clubs have had a hand in it, mucking in to write the various sections and do the route checking, its a truly yorkshire effort. well done all round.
(but I'd still like someone to do a bouldering guide...I'll live in hope)
The YMC guides are awesome and a job well done. I particularly like that so many yorkshire climbers and clubs have had a hand in it, mucking in to write the various sections and do the route checking, its a truly yorkshire effort. well done all round.
(but I'd still like someone to do a bouldering guide...I'll live in hope)
In reply to pebbles:
I understand your point but maybe you need to do something yourself (online on the newly combined yorkshire & peak bouldering site). To get what you want by extending the coverage of the old Rockfax you would need at least 2 guides that both would be quite a bit thicker. Even then a lot of those Caley problems didnt make it in the first Rockfax so with that sort of coverage maybe 3 volumes? Comparing the old peak Rockfax guide with the new one a lot of the minor easier problems on the 'easy side' of boulders actually got left out (presumably as the quality/quantity didnt justify the extra photo-topos). We have loads of similar unlisted lower grade problems on "Offwidth" and many more on our records that are not public as yet.
In summary I don't see such slightly more definitive style guides selling enough to justify the effort, especially with the inevitable rising electronic competition. I do think there is a clear market for a new single volume selective bouldering guide across the range for Yorkshire Grit. In this, one thing I didnt mention above that Rockfax did well for mid-grade boulderers (that isnt in YMC) was the numbered hold, multi-variations at very popular venues.
I understand your point but maybe you need to do something yourself (online on the newly combined yorkshire & peak bouldering site). To get what you want by extending the coverage of the old Rockfax you would need at least 2 guides that both would be quite a bit thicker. Even then a lot of those Caley problems didnt make it in the first Rockfax so with that sort of coverage maybe 3 volumes? Comparing the old peak Rockfax guide with the new one a lot of the minor easier problems on the 'easy side' of boulders actually got left out (presumably as the quality/quantity didnt justify the extra photo-topos). We have loads of similar unlisted lower grade problems on "Offwidth" and many more on our records that are not public as yet.
In summary I don't see such slightly more definitive style guides selling enough to justify the effort, especially with the inevitable rising electronic competition. I do think there is a clear market for a new single volume selective bouldering guide across the range for Yorkshire Grit. In this, one thing I didnt mention above that Rockfax did well for mid-grade boulderers (that isnt in YMC) was the numbered hold, multi-variations at very popular venues.
Post edited at 12:38
In reply to Offwidth:
Not true. There are hardly any problems from the 1998 guide that missed the 2014 guide (apart from Heighley Castle and Pleasely Vale). The problem count is around 1600 for the 1998 guide and 3394 for the 2014 guide but the missing 'minor easier problems' can't number more than a handful.
Alan
> Comparing the old peak Rockfax guide with the new one a lot of the minor easier problems on the 'easy side' of boulders actually got left out (presumably as the quality/quantity didnt justify the extra photo-topos).
Not true. There are hardly any problems from the 1998 guide that missed the 2014 guide (apart from Heighley Castle and Pleasely Vale). The problem count is around 1600 for the 1998 guide and 3394 for the 2014 guide but the missing 'minor easier problems' can't number more than a handful.
Alan
Post edited at 13:25
1
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I haven't counted them, it was just an impression I got from updating our 'Offwidth' pages. When dealing pragmatically with a very small subset (of those minor isolated problems that don't fit sensibly on photo topos), not including what you can do with arrows to reasonably locate hidden problems. My impression was it was a lot of this small subset, more than 20 but not hugely more, the issue I was trying to get over is more about the desire to be fully definitive and what you could do with similar problems in any Yorkshire update.
I haven't counted them, it was just an impression I got from updating our 'Offwidth' pages. When dealing pragmatically with a very small subset (of those minor isolated problems that don't fit sensibly on photo topos), not including what you can do with arrows to reasonably locate hidden problems. My impression was it was a lot of this small subset, more than 20 but not hugely more, the issue I was trying to get over is more about the desire to be fully definitive and what you could do with similar problems in any Yorkshire update.
In reply to Offwidth:
Cheers! Unfortunately, plan B is to reschedule - looking likely. However I'll still meet up with anyone who wants to chance it/have a wet walk and then a drink. Sunday might be a better day. Or we could do it another weekend - have put it to the vote on facebook. What would you be keen for?
> Hopefully I can get a signed copy tomorrow and personally congratulate you on a job well done as I'm with the in-laws in Brighouse and hope to pop over. What's your plan B if the weather is as shite as the forecast.
Cheers! Unfortunately, plan B is to reschedule - looking likely. However I'll still meet up with anyone who wants to chance it/have a wet walk and then a drink. Sunday might be a better day. Or we could do it another weekend - have put it to the vote on facebook. What would you be keen for?
In reply to robin mueller:
Moff and I were heading for the pub you scheduled if it was a washout or family stuff delayed us.
Moff and I were heading for the pub you scheduled if it was a washout or family stuff delayed us.
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Also should have made it clear the new guide was better in my opinion for missing such minor problems that didnt fit easily. Its sensible to use the space to highlight better stuff. Some examples of missing stuff just from Burb South edge include, #6 and #7 and #14 and #17 Oak Grove, #24 and #29 Sorb area.
Also should have made it clear the new guide was better in my opinion for missing such minor problems that didnt fit easily. Its sensible to use the space to highlight better stuff. Some examples of missing stuff just from Burb South edge include, #6 and #7 and #14 and #17 Oak Grove, #24 and #29 Sorb area.
In reply to Offwidth:
Sadly, I think Saturday is best abandoned. Will do a mini meet on Sun for anyone keen, and re-organise a big get together when the weather improves.
If you are in the area anyway, the pub's not bad and you could have a nice wander on the moors in either direction. Think I'll give it a miss as it's a fair way for me to drive just to go the pub. Will probably head to rockover instead.
> Moff and I were heading for the pub you scheduled if it was a washout or family stuff delayed us.
Sadly, I think Saturday is best abandoned. Will do a mini meet on Sun for anyone keen, and re-organise a big get together when the weather improves.
If you are in the area anyway, the pub's not bad and you could have a nice wander on the moors in either direction. Think I'll give it a miss as it's a fair way for me to drive just to go the pub. Will probably head to rockover instead.
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