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is it worth going for 700x25 from 700x23 for winter? Currently running slick 700x23c which is getting a bit slippery on the winter roads. Looking at the Conti gp 4, worth upping to 25?
In reply to esoteric:
Yes, every little bit helps. You can run lower pressures and therefore have a larger contact patch and more grip. Even better on wider rims. They won't make a massive difference but as I say every little bit helps. If your frame can accept 25s then I wouldn't bother changing back in the summer (unless the tyres are lighter for summer, heavier for winter for instance) just for the thinner width as up to day thinking is that 25's are actually faster than 23s (for the same type of tyre) especially on typically rough UK roads with the added benefit of more comfort too.
Yes, every little bit helps. You can run lower pressures and therefore have a larger contact patch and more grip. Even better on wider rims. They won't make a massive difference but as I say every little bit helps. If your frame can accept 25s then I wouldn't bother changing back in the summer (unless the tyres are lighter for summer, heavier for winter for instance) just for the thinner width as up to day thinking is that 25's are actually faster than 23s (for the same type of tyre) especially on typically rough UK roads with the added benefit of more comfort too.
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In reply to esoteric:
The current thinking that 25c is faster than a 23 is plain wrong and has been proven unmeasurable. Profile matters certainly, but weight and compound matters more.
If you want to go faster, get bigger lungs and harder legs.
I ride 23c Ultremo ZXs in the summer and conti GPs (whatever is on offer) only to increase puncture resistance, because changing tubes with freezing hands is not my most favourite thing to do.
Run a lower pressure, and ride with the mentality that every corner is greasy or icy and you're golden. Strava segments and mph are for summer
The current thinking that 25c is faster than a 23 is plain wrong and has been proven unmeasurable. Profile matters certainly, but weight and compound matters more.
If you want to go faster, get bigger lungs and harder legs.
I ride 23c Ultremo ZXs in the summer and conti GPs (whatever is on offer) only to increase puncture resistance, because changing tubes with freezing hands is not my most favourite thing to do.
Run a lower pressure, and ride with the mentality that every corner is greasy or icy and you're golden. Strava segments and mph are for summer
Post edited at 11:43
In reply to Escher:
what a load of crap
hows 2mm going to make any difference, probably less than 2mm extra actually in contact with the road???
as zimpara said, profile, pressure, tread pattern and compound are more important than width for that little difference. Theres no reason you cant run a lower pressure on a 23c, the other thing about winter riding is there tends to be more stuff on the road, branches etc so more likely to get a flat if on lower pressures, regardless of the width, some tyres are better than others at preventing punctures / snakebites. Conti gatorskins are pretty tough or shwalbe marathons.
> Yes, every little bit helps. You can run lower pressures and therefore have a larger contact patch and more grip. Even better on wider rims. They won't make a massive difference but as I say every little bit helps. If your frame can accept 25s then I wouldn't bother changing back in the summer (unless the tyres are lighter for summer, heavier for winter for instance) just for the thinner width as up to day thinking is that 25's are actually faster than 23s (for the same type of tyre) especially on typically rough UK roads with the added benefit of more comfort too.
what a load of crap
hows 2mm going to make any difference, probably less than 2mm extra actually in contact with the road???
as zimpara said, profile, pressure, tread pattern and compound are more important than width for that little difference. Theres no reason you cant run a lower pressure on a 23c, the other thing about winter riding is there tends to be more stuff on the road, branches etc so more likely to get a flat if on lower pressures, regardless of the width, some tyres are better than others at preventing punctures / snakebites. Conti gatorskins are pretty tough or shwalbe marathons.
Post edited at 12:56
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In reply to ow arm:
Aero only becomes a real issue at >25mph.
Weight isn't an issue unless you're racing up hill.
I agree 25mm probably won't make much difference but 28 would.
It's a fact for like for like tyres a thicker one has less deflection and better suspension.
Bumps lifting you into the air wasted energy and isn't as comfortable.
Unless you're on a velodrome there's no need for thin high pressure.
Tread isn't as much of an issue as with flat car tyres with water.
On ice (dry) large tread/knobbles only reduces friction.
Also you can clearly run a lower pressure with thicker tyres.
There's loads about all this online.
Fashions change. Just look at the average persons confusion with wheel size.
Aero only becomes a real issue at >25mph.
Weight isn't an issue unless you're racing up hill.
I agree 25mm probably won't make much difference but 28 would.
It's a fact for like for like tyres a thicker one has less deflection and better suspension.
Bumps lifting you into the air wasted energy and isn't as comfortable.
Unless you're on a velodrome there's no need for thin high pressure.
Tread isn't as much of an issue as with flat car tyres with water.
On ice (dry) large tread/knobbles only reduces friction.
Also you can clearly run a lower pressure with thicker tyres.
There's loads about all this online.
Fashions change. Just look at the average persons confusion with wheel size.
Post edited at 14:56
In reply to esoteric:
It's worth going to25s in summer in my estimation. I did and reaped the benefits in terms of comfort and security with no clear loss of performance.
It's worth going to25s in summer in my estimation. I did and reaped the benefits in terms of comfort and security with no clear loss of performance.
In reply to zimpara:
If it's been proven unmeasurable, how is it possible to know that it's wrong?
> The current thinking that 25c is faster than a 23 is plain wrong and has been proven unmeasurable.
If it's been proven unmeasurable, how is it possible to know that it's wrong?
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In reply to esoteric:
I run 25mm (Conti GP4000s) on my roadie all year. My bike is quite comfy anyway (carbon, big, and less than totally rigid wheels) but I notice the difference on some of the less than snooker table smooth roads round here. If I had multiple sets of wheels I'd go for 23mm tubs for riding on smooth warm roads (i.e: the Alps) but otherwise I'm sticking with my 25mms. I do tend to ride longer distances, if I was only out for a couple of hours at a time it wouldn't matter so much.
I run 25mm (Conti GP4000s) on my roadie all year. My bike is quite comfy anyway (carbon, big, and less than totally rigid wheels) but I notice the difference on some of the less than snooker table smooth roads round here. If I had multiple sets of wheels I'd go for 23mm tubs for riding on smooth warm roads (i.e: the Alps) but otherwise I'm sticking with my 25mms. I do tend to ride longer distances, if I was only out for a couple of hours at a time it wouldn't matter so much.
1
In reply to esoteric:
One thing I've noticed about my old commuter bike with 25s compared to my good bike with 23s is that I can put the power down more effectively on the more forgiving bigger tyres because I'm not dodging holes in the road and when I do get on the bumps I can keep pedalling through rather than getting off the saddle and unweighting /hopping the wheels to avoid either damaging my wheels or damaging my arse. I can't really compare any other aspect of the tyres as the bikes are so drastically different.
One thing I've noticed about my old commuter bike with 25s compared to my good bike with 23s is that I can put the power down more effectively on the more forgiving bigger tyres because I'm not dodging holes in the road and when I do get on the bumps I can keep pedalling through rather than getting off the saddle and unweighting /hopping the wheels to avoid either damaging my wheels or damaging my arse. I can't really compare any other aspect of the tyres as the bikes are so drastically different.
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In reply to zimpara:
I guess you missed this bit '25's are actually faster than 23s (for the same type of tyre)' when you said 'but weight and compound matters more'.
Being the same tyre but a different width would presume they are made of the same compound of course.
I guess you missed this bit '25's are actually faster than 23s (for the same type of tyre)' when you said 'but weight and compound matters more'.
Being the same tyre but a different width would presume they are made of the same compound of course.
In reply to Removed User:
only for the last 20 years
prick
the OP is asking if its worth changing up by 2mm for winter to avoid slipping in the cold wet dirty conditions. Hes not asking for a stupid debate if 25 is faster than 23 as measured on some fancy race bike ridden by a pro
only for the last 20 years
prick
the OP is asking if its worth changing up by 2mm for winter to avoid slipping in the cold wet dirty conditions. Hes not asking for a stupid debate if 25 is faster than 23 as measured on some fancy race bike ridden by a pro
Post edited at 19:21
In reply to esoteric:
I can't tell any difference. I'm not an expert but do ride quite a bit.
On the other hand some tyres are certainly trippier than others eg gator skins are slippy as, whereas Durano feel stickier.
I can't tell any difference. I'm not an expert but do ride quite a bit.
On the other hand some tyres are certainly trippier than others eg gator skins are slippy as, whereas Durano feel stickier.
In reply to esoteric:
I've got 23's on both summer and winter bike. My fixie had 25's - i couldn't tell any difference. The fixie now has one 23 and one 25. It make so little difference that I couldn't tell which which tyre is on each wheel without looking. After this morning's splash around filthy lanes I do know that the only thing that worried me were a few slick manhole covers inconveniently placed on turns, and no amount of tread or extra mm would have induced me to ride over them
PS. the 23 mm tyres are all Michelin Pro 4. The only tyre to get a puncture in the group this morning was some heavy armoured thing
I've got 23's on both summer and winter bike. My fixie had 25's - i couldn't tell any difference. The fixie now has one 23 and one 25. It make so little difference that I couldn't tell which which tyre is on each wheel without looking. After this morning's splash around filthy lanes I do know that the only thing that worried me were a few slick manhole covers inconveniently placed on turns, and no amount of tread or extra mm would have induced me to ride over them
PS. the 23 mm tyres are all Michelin Pro 4. The only tyre to get a puncture in the group this morning was some heavy armoured thing
Post edited at 20:46
In reply to nniff:
glad to hear another fan of the pro4 I was on pro3 before and will stick with them
glad to hear another fan of the pro4 I was on pro3 before and will stick with them
In reply to esoteric:
If you are replacing them due to wear and tear then I would say yes, but 25mm isn't going to make a huge difference just for a change. I would suggest just changing to 25mm when you can though, the gains outweigh the losses (rolling resistance, speed, comfort etc)
Is this for commuting or just riding? Don't worry about the tread on road tyres
Conti4 are decent, my other recommendations would be at the high end - Vittoria Open Pave, probably the best non summer tyre I have used. Conti 4 season are very good too.
Bang for buck i'd go with Vittoria Rubino. I use these on my cross bike for the winter rides. The open paves are on the S works for the better days until summer.
I tend to run my wheels at 90/100 at this time of year weighing in between 10/11 stone, probably slightly too high but I prefer high pressure.
On the other note Pro3/4 I like but I've had a great time with Ultremo ZX's. 1 Puncture, 2500/3000 miles (the summer) and great roll. Not sure what this summer will be on the clinchers, be 25mm though
If you are replacing them due to wear and tear then I would say yes, but 25mm isn't going to make a huge difference just for a change. I would suggest just changing to 25mm when you can though, the gains outweigh the losses (rolling resistance, speed, comfort etc)
Is this for commuting or just riding? Don't worry about the tread on road tyres
Conti4 are decent, my other recommendations would be at the high end - Vittoria Open Pave, probably the best non summer tyre I have used. Conti 4 season are very good too.
Bang for buck i'd go with Vittoria Rubino. I use these on my cross bike for the winter rides. The open paves are on the S works for the better days until summer.
I tend to run my wheels at 90/100 at this time of year weighing in between 10/11 stone, probably slightly too high but I prefer high pressure.
On the other note Pro3/4 I like but I've had a great time with Ultremo ZX's. 1 Puncture, 2500/3000 miles (the summer) and great roll. Not sure what this summer will be on the clinchers, be 25mm though
In reply to AymanC:
Based on my experience commuting last Friday, the main advantage of big fat low pressure knobbly tires is not that they'll grip black ice any better than narrow slick (they won't - you'll be sliding down the road on your arse either way), but at least you won't be going anything like as fast when you hit the deck.
> On ice (dry) large tread/knobbles only reduces friction.
> Also you can clearly run a lower pressure with thicker tyres.
Based on my experience commuting last Friday, the main advantage of big fat low pressure knobbly tires is not that they'll grip black ice any better than narrow slick (they won't - you'll be sliding down the road on your arse either way), but at least you won't be going anything like as fast when you hit the deck.
In reply to Marek:
Problem is on ice when your front wheel goes out from under you, it feels like your momentum turns into a sideways rotation throwing you to the ground. It feels faster than falling (totally anecdotal).
Recently had a nasty accident whilst cornering really quite slowly, aware of ice being about.
Problem is on ice when your front wheel goes out from under you, it feels like your momentum turns into a sideways rotation throwing you to the ground. It feels faster than falling (totally anecdotal).
Recently had a nasty accident whilst cornering really quite slowly, aware of ice being about.
In reply to esoteric:
I would recommend that you buy anything but the Continental GP 4-season tyres. I have been using them for about eight months, now, and they do nothing to prevent punctures. If anything, it feels like I have more punctures with them than I did with the show-room specials that they replaced.
On topic, 25mm is rather a nice size.
I would recommend that you buy anything but the Continental GP 4-season tyres. I have been using them for about eight months, now, and they do nothing to prevent punctures. If anything, it feels like I have more punctures with them than I did with the show-room specials that they replaced.
On topic, 25mm is rather a nice size.
In reply to esoteric:
In winter you need NARROW tyres so as to increase the ground pressure and force the treads down into the ground. This is why rally cars in winter have very narrow tyres and this is why poncy cars like BMWs and Mercs with fat tyres and rear-wheel drive are so useless in snow.
Working Land Rovers also have narrow tyres because peope who need them to work in mud and snow (farmers, foresters, etc.) know that fat tyres may look butch but they are rubbish on soft surfaces. I've even seen tricked-up Land Rovers struggling in deep mud as the tyres built up a bow-wave of soft mud rather than cut through.
For winter cycling you need a supple, compliant, narrow tyre with a cross-hatched texture like a Veloflex Open Corsa, which is a stunningly good tyre and affordable if you buy a pair from Ribble. Once you've used these you will never go back to inferior tyres like Contis, Michelin, etc.
In winter you need NARROW tyres so as to increase the ground pressure and force the treads down into the ground. This is why rally cars in winter have very narrow tyres and this is why poncy cars like BMWs and Mercs with fat tyres and rear-wheel drive are so useless in snow.
Working Land Rovers also have narrow tyres because peope who need them to work in mud and snow (farmers, foresters, etc.) know that fat tyres may look butch but they are rubbish on soft surfaces. I've even seen tricked-up Land Rovers struggling in deep mud as the tyres built up a bow-wave of soft mud rather than cut through.
For winter cycling you need a supple, compliant, narrow tyre with a cross-hatched texture like a Veloflex Open Corsa, which is a stunningly good tyre and affordable if you buy a pair from Ribble. Once you've used these you will never go back to inferior tyres like Contis, Michelin, etc.
Post edited at 09:06
In reply to Rigid Raider:
I had some Open Corsas - they provided good grip and 'feel', but I found that they wear out very quickly and punctured easily on our less-than-perfect Cornish roads. Currently using Vittoria Zafiro 25s this winter, having run 23s last summer (and that was after using them for JOGLE without a single puncture). Can't honestly say I notice a difference between sizes (I only bought the 25s 'cos Planet X were doing them for £7.99 at the time). Most bike tyres can be found cheap somewhere online, so its not financially punitive to try some different types. If it transpires that they're not the best for that season/conditions, put 'em in the shed and change them another time, or sell them. Its the only way to find out really, since what works for you, your local roads and the way you ride, might not be the same as someone else.
N
I had some Open Corsas - they provided good grip and 'feel', but I found that they wear out very quickly and punctured easily on our less-than-perfect Cornish roads. Currently using Vittoria Zafiro 25s this winter, having run 23s last summer (and that was after using them for JOGLE without a single puncture). Can't honestly say I notice a difference between sizes (I only bought the 25s 'cos Planet X were doing them for £7.99 at the time). Most bike tyres can be found cheap somewhere online, so its not financially punitive to try some different types. If it transpires that they're not the best for that season/conditions, put 'em in the shed and change them another time, or sell them. Its the only way to find out really, since what works for you, your local roads and the way you ride, might not be the same as someone else.
N
In reply to Rigid Raider:
Not entirely true. You need really gnarly tread, so it doesn't easily clog up with mud. Most large tractors have wide flotation tyres which do what they say in the description.
Not entirely true. You need really gnarly tread, so it doesn't easily clog up with mud. Most large tractors have wide flotation tyres which do what they say in the description.
In reply to wilkesley:
Isn't an open tread which and wide tires two separate functions?
> Not entirely true. You need really gnarly tread, so it doesn't easily clog up with mud. Most large tractors have wide flotation tyres which do what they say in the description.
Isn't an open tread which and wide tires two separate functions?
In reply to Rigid Raider:
Bikes are not cars.
Let's look at the sort of bikes that work best on muddy or snowy terrain. MTB or cyclocross. How do those tires compare to 23s.
To the OP: I use 28s on my winter bike (Cannondale Synapse), I'd fit 32s if they would fit. 25s on the good bike, so much nicer to ride than 23s.
Bikes are not cars.
Let's look at the sort of bikes that work best on muddy or snowy terrain. MTB or cyclocross. How do those tires compare to 23s.
To the OP: I use 28s on my winter bike (Cannondale Synapse), I'd fit 32s if they would fit. 25s on the good bike, so much nicer to ride than 23s.
In reply to esoteric:
Not sure his bike will have frame clearance for either tractor or landrover tyres
I have stuck a pair of Panaracer gravel kings on my winter bike 26mm also available in 28mm if your bike will take it, seem to take the beating from the roads around Aberdeen including a few sections of bridleway to get out of Town and certainly feel more secure on wet/muddy/gravely shitty roads
the sunday best bike has conti 4000s in 25mm
http://road.cc/content/review/135369-panaracer-gravel-king-tyres
Not sure his bike will have frame clearance for either tractor or landrover tyres
I have stuck a pair of Panaracer gravel kings on my winter bike 26mm also available in 28mm if your bike will take it, seem to take the beating from the roads around Aberdeen including a few sections of bridleway to get out of Town and certainly feel more secure on wet/muddy/gravely shitty roads
the sunday best bike has conti 4000s in 25mm
http://road.cc/content/review/135369-panaracer-gravel-king-tyres
In reply to The New NickB:
But the same holds, does it not? Tread on a road tyre allows the water to displace and that is about it but an off road tyre needs something to grip the unstable ground, to pull and push through the mud.
> Bikes are not cars.
> Let's look at the sort of bikes that work best on muddy or snowy terrain. MTB or cyclocross. How do those tires compare to 23s.
But the same holds, does it not? Tread on a road tyre allows the water to displace and that is about it but an off road tyre needs something to grip the unstable ground, to pull and push through the mud.
In reply to Mike Highbury:
Yes which is why tyres tend to have one or the other. Trucks have gnarly treads, tractors have wide tyres.
To get back to the original thread I have been using Schwalbe Durano Plus folding tyres this winter. In terms of grip they seem OK to me. I got 25mm because they are a bit more comfortable. Certainly reduce my puncture count to zero (now that's tempting fate. Can't really compare them to the other recommended tyres, as I haven't tried those. However, I would be happy to buy another set and will probably run with them all year round.
> Isn't an open tread which and wide tires two separate functions?
Yes which is why tyres tend to have one or the other. Trucks have gnarly treads, tractors have wide tyres.
To get back to the original thread I have been using Schwalbe Durano Plus folding tyres this winter. In terms of grip they seem OK to me. I got 25mm because they are a bit more comfortable. Certainly reduce my puncture count to zero (now that's tempting fate. Can't really compare them to the other recommended tyres, as I haven't tried those. However, I would be happy to buy another set and will probably run with them all year round.
Post edited at 13:39
In reply to esoteric:
Bit off topic, but I've just switched bikes from 700x23 (Durano's) on the roadie, to 700x40 on the cyclocross.
The difference is awesome, far more comfortable, far more capable on the shitty cycle paths I use, and I was much more confident on any icy bits. Cant say it was much slower over my usual distance either.
Bit off topic, but I've just switched bikes from 700x23 (Durano's) on the roadie, to 700x40 on the cyclocross.
The difference is awesome, far more comfortable, far more capable on the shitty cycle paths I use, and I was much more confident on any icy bits. Cant say it was much slower over my usual distance either.
In reply to esoteric:
Last winter I switched to 25 cc GatorSkins but after 12 months both have started to wear quite badly in the sidewalls (one has worn completely through to the point that the inner tune started popping out) - in the past two months I've had four or five punctures (I managed to double puncture going over a flooded cattle grid).
I've since being trying out 28 cc, firstly a pair of Marathons (bit heavy), and now some Giant branded slicks which have a bit of puncture-resistance. During winter I'm just happy to get the miles in and don't really care about loosing a couple of mph. I'd rather know I can ride over the typical winter detritus you find on country lanes, and can lower the pressure if I need to on icy days (not that it's stopped me falling off twice).
Last winter I switched to 25 cc GatorSkins but after 12 months both have started to wear quite badly in the sidewalls (one has worn completely through to the point that the inner tune started popping out) - in the past two months I've had four or five punctures (I managed to double puncture going over a flooded cattle grid).
I've since being trying out 28 cc, firstly a pair of Marathons (bit heavy), and now some Giant branded slicks which have a bit of puncture-resistance. During winter I'm just happy to get the miles in and don't really care about loosing a couple of mph. I'd rather know I can ride over the typical winter detritus you find on country lanes, and can lower the pressure if I need to on icy days (not that it's stopped me falling off twice).
In reply to FrankBooth:
I have Schwalbe Marathons on my commuter (Brompton). They are certainly heavy, but I can vouch for their puncture resistance - not a single puncture in over 3 years (=9000km). They are also available in 700x25c & 28c upwards, so could be another option if you don't mind the weight.
N
I have Schwalbe Marathons on my commuter (Brompton). They are certainly heavy, but I can vouch for their puncture resistance - not a single puncture in over 3 years (=9000km). They are also available in 700x25c & 28c upwards, so could be another option if you don't mind the weight.
N
In reply to esoteric:
Weight is fine on a tourer or commuter where puncture-proofing is valued. But for the Sunday best bike I'm constantly looking for ways to reduce weight and improve the ride. The Velofexes are the best tyres I've ever used but they aren't very robust; I plan to try them with latex inners this spring to see how much lighter and more comfortable they become.
Weight is fine on a tourer or commuter where puncture-proofing is valued. But for the Sunday best bike I'm constantly looking for ways to reduce weight and improve the ride. The Velofexes are the best tyres I've ever used but they aren't very robust; I plan to try them with latex inners this spring to see how much lighter and more comfortable they become.
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