UKC

Morning all.

This Summer I read The Rock Climber's Training Manual. This advocated a strict periodisation programme, (which appealed to me coming from an endurance sports background.)

So - ARC (month ish) then strength, (about a month of finger boarding,) then power, (short boulder problems at max,) PE, (linked boulder problems / routes reps) and then performance phase.

It made a big thing of training specific to your 'goal route(s)' which makes sense.

I seem to have made some gains having used it - climbing harder boulder problems / linked boulder problems now I'm mid PE stage probably than I ever have before, and this at half a stone heavier than Summer 'racing weight'. However I'm keen to hear how others train / have tried to train in the past and how successful it's been. The one thing I wonder in relation to what I'm doing is would it be better to do some fingerboarding throughout the programme as I think I remember once reading that due to slow finger strength adaption this was best?

Tell me what you do and how good it's been!

In reply to Exile:

I've always just mucked around doing a bit of everything in the past. In the last few months my friends and I have put together a slightly more structured and periodised plan, which has already produced some results.

We identified a big weakness, in that we could do 5c or 6a moves on trad, but couldn't link them with a few 5b moves before or after as we would power out, get pumped or whatever. We decided that 4 x 4 on boulder problems would give us more PE and we read that around 5 weeks was a good phase, so we did that. Now we are following roughly the outline you suggest above, currently well into the ARC phase and will be doing some hard bouldering in a few weeks time for about 3/4 weeks, followed by some more PE training This is all in aid of a specific gritstone based goal for the spring.

So, what have we found so far? Well in terms of results, since completing the PE phase I have done my hardest trad onsight lead, we have all completed our hardest headpoint, raising the headpoint level by 1 or 2 grades in the process.

In reply to Exile:




Eric Horst advocates a 10-week mesocycle comprising 4 weeks stamina/skill, 3 weeks max strength/power, 2 weeks anaerobic endurance and 1 week rest.

I haven't tried this but I quite like the idea of shorter cycles to add variety in the programme.

In reply to Exile:

Winter:
Climb indoors for 3-4 hours on Thursday night, drink beer.
Friday - drink more beer.

Summer:
Climb indoors for 3-4 hours on Thursday night, drink beer.
Friday - drink more beer.
Saturday / Sunday: climb outdoors somewhere, drink beer.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I think the issue with that is that it's so short you barely make any gains before moving to something else - the adaption times are way longer than those. After 2 weeks I'm nowhere near to maxing out the gains from power endurance training, ditto in 3 weeks all over got from strength training is a boost to recruitment...

In reply to Exile:
The thing I generally do is laps down the wall, aka 4x4s.

One winter I started off doing a vaguely periodised type thing starting off with aerocap (10 mins on 10 mins off, low intensity), then going to 4x4s (higher intensity at about 3.5/5 pump) then starting to throw in a bit of PE (redpointing). All the while, I'd keep up one bouldering session a week to keep up my finger strength (not a limiting factor for me on routes).

Did it work? Who knows, that summer it rained every single day and I never went climbing.

This year, I'm doing lots of laps again but with no method. I just try to do 16 or 20 routes every time I go to the wall, in blocks of 4 or 5, sometimes just keeping the intensity reasonable, sometimes trying hard stuff and falling off, sometimes just working to utter failure. No rhyme nor reason. I also boulder about once a week to maintain finger strength.

I think that this no rhyme or reason strategy is probably pretty good for trad training: sometimes you need to hang on to big holds for hours, sometimes you need to do a few hard moves on crap holds to a rest, sometimes you need to pull off a desperate crux. You need to be fit and adaptable. As such, I think my non-strategy is probably jolly good, let's see how it works out next season!

In reply to Exile:

I do the RCTM program though I boulder during the arc and PE phases as well as power phase. My opinion and experience is that the fingers need to be getting seriously loaded most of the year. This is basically the same as your idea of fingerboarding throughout the programme. I would say yes

In reply to AJM:

Agree with you. It takes a lot longer than most people think for specific gains to show up. Any improvements that happen in a week or two are somewhat unlikely to be due to adaptations in the muscle

I agree with the fingerboarding comment. Certainly Dave MacLeod makes this point, that gains are (and should be) quite slow.

I'm 3 weeks into a base phase after 3 months off climbing (injuries; then distracted by running). So far I've done mainly ARC but also some light-ish weights to stabilise shoulders, core stuff, and the odd volume bouldering session (i.e. onsight bouldering). I'm planning to have another 2 weeks overlap where I do fingerboarding on the days before the ARC. I don't want to push the finger boarding volume too hard until I get used to it; and I feel like another 2 weeks (making 5 in total) of ARC wouldn't hurt the forearm endurance. Then a full strength phase of 4 weeks FB and weights.

I deliberately didn't do the FB earlier in the ARC phase as I felt I needed a base of finger use first. Plus it's easy to get distracted into more FB less ARC. Perhaps the need for a base is lower if you're coming into ARC after only a week or two's post-peak recovery. Though personally I usually have residual finger niggles at that point so the ARC weeks give a bit more recovery time!

4x4 bouldering and other hard anaerobic endurance activities (an cap & an pow) don't seem to combine well with finger boarding. Basically one gets a little out of control in those exercises, which can lead to mild finger tweaks etc. It's a bad idea to go into those tweaks with pre-fatigued fingers from the FB; and it's bad to FB after the 4x4s as the FB can worsen a mild tweak. 4x4 on routes isn't much better unless you stop before you're totally boxed, which might reduce the training value (or not?).

I guess it might not hurt to do a little finger boarding at the start of PE sessions; enough to fire up recruitment but not enough to fatigue everything. Not sure that's going to give the finger strength gains of full FB sessions, but it might help the maintenance side.

Goals & weaknesses matter here, as you say. Mine is to redpoint a 10-15m 7b sport route by end-Feb. I know my biggest challenges will be (a) getting enough decent goes in a day as I can only climb outside one day per week (b) having enough crimp strength to get through the crux (Blue Mountains is very very crimpy for me at that grade). I'm less worried about PE as I like 4x4s and I find they really work very well for me; plus I think working the route itself will help sort that.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I've read Eric's conditioning book where he suggests this, but I've never quite understood it or met anyone else who has undertaken it. The biggest block or 40% of training is nonspecific 'stamina' climbing below limit with some technique focus. Sounds a bit like a transition phase, but in a normal periodisation the transition phase shouldn't be longer than a base phase imo. Resting for a whole week out of ten seems excessive also. He also doesn't talk about how to fit these cycles into a season wrt a peak phase for red pointing projects etc.

It is advice for the intermediate (which I am) and he does repeatedly say you need to work your weaknesses not apply a tote training plan, but still.

Anyone used 4321 successfully?

In reply to guy127917:

Stuff like 4321 pisses me off. It's just some random numbers that a guy has invented because it looks 'cool'. Why would 4321 work any better than 1234? Meh.

Eric is of the opinion that the lactic acid (low/mid PE) is the least trainable system compared to ARC / power. In the training beta podcast he talks about some work he has done recently and some exciting new training methodologies etc. Will be interesting to see where he goes but I would tend to agree with him. My Arc type fitness and power responds much quicker to training than PE IMHO

In reply to jsmcfarland:

Agree with the arbitrary numbers point, though a) setting in weeks certainly makes scheduling easier for people with jobs and b) being able to visualise the blocks could help with focus. But yeah he didnt give any serious explanation of why those periods would work.

I'll check out that training beta episode.

Dave Mcleod seems to directly disagree by saying you should be fingerboarding aiming to improve over years. Doing a 3 week "strength" phase every 10 does seem to disagree heavily. Maybe I need to pick up a copy of the RCTM.

In reply to Exile:

Agree with you on that, I follow the RCTM but do some fingerboarding or hard bouldering on a regular basis year-around apart from quarterly quarterly 7-10 day rest phases.

The RCTM justification is that by 3 weeks you have maximized any gains from recruitment (probably true) and you won't gain much more from constant fingerboarding except probably an injury. If you include the power phase of either campusing or limit bouldering, the RCTM method actually has a hell of alot of finger intensive stuff in it. Essentially the only time you are giving your fingers a rest is the actual rest phase, the arc phase, and probably the start of the PE phase (by the end of the PE phase you are 'performing')

In reply to jsmcfarland:

So your feeling is there is more finger strength stuff than you think if you follow RCTM, but you also top it up?

In reply to Exile:

Did your cycle as described early this year and went from 6c+ best ever route to 7b best ever route as a result. Training before was more of the climb once a week and drink beer sort of thing. Coming from nothing it certainly made a big difference. Not sure I can be arsed to work that hard though!

Good luck, it was nice to know what I could achieve and makes me appreciate the beer more.

In reply to Exile:

it makes me wonder just how crap some people would be if they didnt train.
some seem to have a training regime more detailed than an Olympic athlete.

In reply to mark s:

I think if all you did before was adhoc climbing and beer, then almost any structured plan will result in big gains. Whether one plan is better than another is probably of more interest to those who have been training that way for several years.

In reply to Exile:

I think the RCTM if done as proscribed is more fingery than people think, but it seems sensible to me to top it up yeah. Alot of it is based on genetics and how 'hard' you recover. Previously I've thought my fingers were weak for the grades I was climbing so I topped up the proscribed finger training during ARC/PE phases and the fingers got a little creaky. I'm in the PE/Performance phase of my latest cycle and I'm making a much bigger effort to be mindful of how my fingers are feeling as well as massaging them, started taking cissus supplements etc and my gains have been through the roof. I'm starting my 3rd or 4th cycle now so it will be interesting to see how I get on going into next year.

Any good trainer or program writer will tell you that the devil is in the detail and tweaking it to suit you : )

In reply to Exile:

I've found the problem with periodized plans is getting the peak phase to fit in with actual life. Inevitably the weather is crap or other commitments get in the way at the time you are planning to perform. I think unless you are training for a competition or climbing trip they're not really practical.

I think sometimes fingerboarding programs are misunderstood... Repeaters are more of a power endurance exercise whereas the type of exercise Dave MacLeod recommends in 9 Out Of 10 Climbers is more of a maximum strength thing. This has a major bearing on how often you do them and where they fit into your training plan.

Has anyone noticed a big difference from doing ARC workouts? I've found they've helped my technique due to the large volume of climbing but I've never noticed much of a physical difference?

It's also unlikely massive gains indoors will translate to better performance on rock straight away. I did follow a periodized regime once and although I felt really fit at the end, it all went out the window as soon as we arrived at the crag! Fear of falling will also hold you back massively, I think it's important to put some fall practice into your plan somewhere if you are interested in doing routes.

The final thing I've learned is that losing some weight at the time you plan to peak really helps. At least if you are generally on the chubby side, like myself.

In reply to Brendan:


But isn't that precisely the point of a periodized plan? If you're not aiming to peak at a particular point in the season, why would you be using periodization in the first place?

In reply to planetmarshall:

My point was that if you aim to peak at a particular point in the season, you may well end up training while the weather is good and peaking while it's crap!

In reply to Brendan:

So you are saying that training fitness indoors doesn't help dealing with fear outdoors? Who knew!

In reply to Brendan:

I know the feeling Brendan, I've been wrestling with this for a while. I think it basically comes down to the fact you can't just improve at everything all the time. If you focus on one area for a while, you will make better gains, which can then also be applied to other areas. Thus it is better to pick an arbitrary goal than to have none. I'd rather focus on redpointing a 7b offwidth next March than 'just climb lots', because it means every time I get to the indoor wall, I know what I'm doing and why. If it rains every time I get out during the peak phase, then hey, it wasn't to be, and I'll pick something else to focus on for the next period. But there is no way I will climb that route if I also boulder a lot on super crimpy overhanging routes, or go winter climbing every weekend right?

In reply to Brendan:

I don't really agree with that. Is 10 reps of lifting weights endurance? No, it's optimal for hypertrophy. At 3s down 1s pause, 1s up that's 50 secs which is very similar in duration to repeaters. I generally feel powered out not pumped after the harder repeater sets.

To me max hangs seem to be about recruitment / neurological gains, and from weightlifting that seems to be something that should be used for shorter periods of the training year (I do know Dave Mac suggests year round finger-boarding and seems to suggest dead hangs exclusively).



I think it's noticeable, but I couldn't say whether 4x4s are more efficient. One advantage for me is I find 4x4s tweaky on fingers and elbows; less so ARC. Probably most noticeable on longer pumpy sport routes with shakeouts that are adequate but not great. If you do bouldery routes, or ones with mellow hands off rests, probably much less obvious or necessary.

I do find quite fast improvement in ARC durations during training, like 10 minutes goes up to 30 minutes over the course of a month of 2-3 sessions a week (plus some extra climbing) - quite satisfying. I am usually bored by then and leave it for a few months.

In reply to Siderunner:

Yes, good point. Obviously how much rest time you take affects whether you are training strength or PE. I've used the Beastmaker app and I felt like it was more of a PE workout.

That's interesting you've found ARCing effective, I've found it takes a lot of time for seemingly not a lot of gain.

In reply to guy127917:

Yeah, that's a good point. I think the issue I have is due to living on the west coast of Scotland. The weather is so unpredictable that you have to be ready to get on your route when it's dry. This year that was in April and then September/October - if you'd trained to peak in May and August then tough luck!

In reply to Brendan:


I've found aerocap workouts, rather than ARC, to be extremely helpful in trad climbing, particularly at Pembroke or similar venues.

In reply to Exile:

The best Training Programme out there is the one done by that there Bear Grylls on the telly box he is gr8 and I think the Scouts can learn alot from his teachings.

In reply to seankenny:


Aren't they the same thing?

In reply to planetmarshall:

No.

Arc should have basically no pump as originally described.

Aerocap is "pumped but in control".

Significantly different intensity over significantly different time periods.

In reply to AJM:






I die of boredom if I try ARC.

In reply to Exile:
You'll be delighted to know that my plan of pretending to have a finger injury, secretly training like a demon then exploding onto the crag in the Spring is going according to plan. In resting phase at present.
C

In reply to seankenny:

Thankfully I've never really had access to a suitable training venue for it to be easy enough to do arc, so Ive always had to do aerocap essentially by default.

In reply to airborne:

Still avoiding DIY then!?!

In reply to Exile:
As it happens... er yes. Because of the weather of course.