UKC

Mid-grade Scottish winter ticklist: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=1409

I'm sure there will be differing opinions, especially with routes climbed in varying conditions, but I'm going to keep it to 100 so it's one in, one out. Tough, eh.

I don't want popularity to be a factor, just quality, though personally I'm a sucker for the intrigue of a route that's rarely repeated, as opposed to one that gets hacked/scratched up every decent weekend of the season. On the other hand there's not much quality consensus for routes that never get done.

Any input from those more experienced?

In reply to Andy Moles:

I can't find anything wrong with that list!

In reply to Andy Moles:

Looks a great list. The only one catching my eye looking down it is Raven's Gully. I only know a few people who have done that but all said it was absolutely desperate and hugely under graded?

In reply to Andy Moles:

I'm not sure of your definition of mid grade. It would mean that 90 percent of all the winter routes done each week were easy.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

For the sake of this list my definition of mid-grade is IV-VI. That may be debatable, and if people generally think so I can change the title of the list.

I-III, IV-VI, VII-IX+ seems like a neat enough definition of low-mid-high grades, no?

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

In any case Andy I'd much rather you indulged me with some fabulous obscure recommendations than nit-picked my nomenclature

In reply to Andy Moles:
Good list Andy, I've done about half and I would think you prob need to add Crest Route in SCNL, better route than either scabbard or chimney route.

I would also add Nuis Chimney on Arran, one of best winter experiences I've had, super climbing and you've got to take a ferry (and a punt) which adds to the adventure.

In terms of stuff to take out, the cooler is a brilliant ice climb but the lines of that and silver tear (which you have to finish up) are next door so you could have one or other?

In terms of obscure routes I'd like to do - something on Foinaven?

In reply to sgl:

Nice one Sam, good recommendations.

I did consider something on Foinaven, but didn't know which route to put in - one of the icefalls or Fishmonger, maybe.

P.S. Do you still winter climb these days?

In reply to Colin Dyer:


It'd be a shame not to have at least one traditional sandbag on the list though.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Had another baby on New Years Eve, has somewhat restricted manoeuvres a bit this year, high levels of FOMO - done more bouldering though! Just looking at the sun out the window and deciding if I can make it out for a quick sesh before picking up no1 from school... Oh how times change.

In reply to sgl:


Andy Nisbet could indulge you there, he knows of routes that were only ever there in 1986.

In reply to Andy Moles:

I'd have Pot of Gold instead of The Genie and how about Fenian Gully on Beinn Dearg along with Emerald Gully?

In reply to Andy Moles:

North wall grooves is in, so there is at least one sandbag. I'd pull green gully as it's usually stepped out.

In reply to Andy Moles:

This reminds me of 'Gaston Ponts' from Gaston Rubberface's 100 (busiest) climbs in the Mont Blanc Massif. I think climbers like lists.

I clicked on it and expected III's, IV's and the odd V and was surprised by a few meaty VI's. Mid grade... well i guess that is progress.
I noted that if you were to find another 8m you could call it the Scottish Everest list (8848m). Alternatively, and this might be more pheasable as i know how people don't like routes descriptions mucked around with, you could go to Everest and take the top 8m off it.

James

In reply to James Edwards:


Many of the routes listed would have been considered hard rather than mid grade not very long ago. Maybe coloured by starting to climb in the 70s but I still think of anything harder than V as 'hard' , but I guess many routes which were considered V in the late 70s are now considered as VI or more, especially for mixed routes.

In reply to Doug:


I think that is because the grading system only went up to V then.

In reply to Steve Perry:

well obviously, when did VI first appear in a guidebook? sometime in the 1980s I think although routes given that grade today go back to the 1950s

In reply to James Edwards:


I suspect Sir Hugh Munro etc would agree with you. And what is a guidebook if not, basically, a list?


I agree with Andy N. here. It may be 'mid-grade' numerically speaking but I suspect in terms of the number of climbs in each grade it's very much at the harder end of the spectrum ( There are many more Grade I-IIs than X-XI. ).

In reply to Andy Moles:

nice list Andy, lots of good routes in there. I didn't know you liked winter climbing so much

In reply to Andy Moles:

Ok you've tempted me.....

A few additions to your list....
Guillotine on carn etcheachan, much better than route major
Great Overhanging Gully, beinn bhan
Man of War, coire scamadal, skye
The Bewildabeast, ben nevis

These routes are better than....
The genie (really?)
Route major
Polythemus gully
Quartzvein scoop
The seam (really?)

Good list, maybe a little heavy on the conventional / well known.... I almost throw in the Clam, lochnagar and Square cut gully on creag a choire etcheachan as they are cooler routes than conventional stuff like indicator wall and stuff in the norries, but the climbing is as good.

Cheers
Andy

In reply to Colin Dyer:


That's because they are assuming it is like a modern snowed up rock route and climbing it in those conditions. With sufficient ice I'm sure it would be closer to the given grade. I backed off it BTW!

In reply to Andy Moles:


We recently got a bit lost on Fishmonger. I think we might have climbed the original summer route rather than Roger Webb's winter route but even speaking to Roger we couldn't work it out! It's a great day out climbing up there but even if we had gone the right way I don't think the climbing would have been worthy of inclusion in that list.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Cold Hole is a great looking pitch but it is only a pitch.
I too would swap Route Major for Guillotine.
Also, for geographical completeness it needs something from the Bridge of Orchy hills. Cirrus, Fahrenheit 451 or maybe one of the harder routes on Beinn Dorain?

In reply to Andy Moles:

Mid-grade at IV-VI seems about right (bit like HVS-E2) - III is definitely low grade.

In reply to Andy Moles: Nice one!

Currently on around 25%. Most of the recent comments on routes to add/remove are pretty spot on. Be tempted to very strongly suggest adding Fahrenheit 451 and dropping Quartzvein Scoop.

Considered Route Major on the Ben, but it has not really inspired. Nordwand (IV 3) might be a better option in a similar vein.

Also, ditch The Curtain (IV 5) if you are definitely keeping Harrison's Direct.

Controversial but I recon Deep Throat is better climbing than Savage Slit.

Hopefully that's enough to think about for the moment.

In reply to DaveHK:


Agree
It would make a top 100 places to climb but not for the climbing.

Diamond fire Ben Alligan.

In reply to Andy Moles:

I would drop Shelf Route, very disappointing when I did it, possibly Crowberry Gully too, at the easier end of your list!

North Face Route V,6 should definately be included.

You have also missed these below:

Great Central Groove V,6 The Brack
Bens Fault IV,5 Beinn Ime
Lomond Corner IV,5 Ben Lomond (haven't done yet)
Promised Land VI,6 Creag an Socach

Just a thought for variety of venue

Stuart

In reply to Andy Moles:
Nice list, I would have added Parallel Gully B, North Face Route and a couple of others. I was a bit underwhelmed by Route Major. You haven't got things like Menage a Trois or Pas de Deux on Beinn an Dothaid in there oh and the Sting. Oh and Glassbead game and Purple Blaze.

In reply to Heike:

Good morning,

I agree with your above sentiments, however:

Pas des Deux is the most disappointing line I've done in S Highlands, lacks line, interest, etc. Menage - maybe?

The Sting, Glass Bead Game & especially Purple Blaze, are too committing for 'most who aspire to tick mid grade lists!'

Stuart

In reply to Andy Moles:

For the same reason as above, Gargoyle Wall, Gemini, Tilt, Centre Point, Blue Rinse, should also be excluded?

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie:

Stuart, I'm glad you agree with me that big Grade VIs are not middle grade for most folk.

Thanks all for the input. Just to be clear, which Route Major are people talking about being disappointing?

In reply to Andy Moles:
I think that the Gorms Route Major is an excellent expedition particularly if it's your first time in that area and IV / V is your grade.

I'd put Thompsons in rather than Green Gully or Vanishing Gully.

You could gain a space by taking Indicator wall out too - it's good but not better than many similar route up there.

Stuart - we did it on an amazing day but I don't think Gargoyle Wall is as committing as Orion, the minus gullys and zero. The climbing is steady, the gear generally good and you could get off most of it in one 60m abseil.

I might add M£nage a Trois and for another easily accessed crag Anvil Corner at Cha no? I'd also put Captain Hook, Peter Pan Direct or South Gully of the Black Wall before Quartsvein Scoop.

In reply to Andy Moles:
IV - VI might mathematically be the mid point between I and the current hardest grade, but I don't know anyone (including myself) who would class V let alone VI as mid grade?

But if that is the case these days, then I'll get me coat

In reply to Goucho:

Mixed VI 7 feels to me roughly equivalent to E2, and I climb a lot more rock than winter. But whatever, there's enough opposition to the idea of VI being mid-grade that I will change the name of the list.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Is is mid grade (so I personally wouldn't change it) but it's not the middle grades that people climb I guess(?)

In reply to Andy Moles:

III to V is probably closer to most folks idea of mid grade but whatever, that's a cracking list.

In reply to jonnie3430:


I couldn't see Green Gully on the list - has it been removed already? That would be sad IMO.

Martin

In reply to Exile:

Gorms Route Major was probably the only route in my winter climbing ever ( and I have done quite a few) I really felt disappointed about. Pretty rubbish and rambling, but this goes to show, routes, conditions and what happens on the day makes a route... It's very subjective

In reply to Martin Hore:


Mine too. It's got such historic significance, which so often adds to the attraction for me. To quote Godefroy Perroux's Ben guide:

'This ascent in 1906 was way ahead of its time. Every time I climb this route I can not help imagining Raeburn, without crampons, cutting steps on the 80° sections. Congratulations Mr Raeburn !'

In reply to Andy Moles: BTW, ignore everyone saying IV to VI isn't mid-grade. I think you are spot on.

Did Crowberry Gully today. Worth 3 stars, but not completely sure if it is a 4 star mega classic. TBH I'd pick North Buttress ahead of it.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Not sure I'd include Shadow Buttress A on Lochnagar personally. Think the route is too much of a short boulder problem so to speak and isn't sustained at all either side of the crux. Especially if you compare it to something like North Buttress on the Buachaille, which has bags of character and is just pure fun to climb. I enjoyed Bell's Route on Lochnagar much more than Shadow A.

In reply to Heike:

Agreed - the vagaries of winter climbing!

In reply to Stuart the postie:

The Sting is not committing - you can ab off from any of the belays. If you mean bold then for the same reason you could probably exclude most snow ice routes.

In reply to jonnie3430:

Then you may as well pull every 3* ice route on The Ben, as your chances of finding them both fresh and in good condition (and unoccupied) are slim.

In reply to Heike:


Couldn't disagree more.

So I've taken into consideration people's comments and improved the list.

Still not sure it's quite there though...

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=1409

In reply to Andy Moles:

Personally, I would remove the routes on Anoch Mor and replace them with; Astronomy, Slav and Great Chimney (Ben Nevis) and 1959 Face route on Craig Meaghaedh.

In reply to 3leggeddog:
I hear you and I don't doubt that route for route those are more memorable, but I already have more routes on the Ben than any other area put together, and I'd like to keep the variety.

Edit: maybe Aonach Mor is a bit over-represented, which of those are less good?

In reply to Andy Moles:



I'd pick one from Jetstream, White Shark and Typhoon. For what they are and where they are one is enough. Can't help with which!

You can then insert Ghlastail GTX and maybe The Cul for a bit of obscurity.

In reply to Andy Moles:



And rightly so, I feel the best bit of the Ben has been under represented, hence the addition of 2 more Orion face route to set the rabbit's nose twitching.

As Dave said take one of the AM routes, they are much of a muchness.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Had a quick count up. I have climbed 30 of your list, it leaves me very lacking in the S Cairngorms and North West sections, a big fat zero. I must try harder!

In reply to 3leggeddog:


I'm on 39 but really lacking in the S. Cairngorms too.

In reply to DaveHK:
I have done The Cul, it was...cool...and in a beautiful place, but not very sustained and probably not in the same league as something like Gully of the Gods?

Ghlastail GTX and Slav are in.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Yeah, I've done it too and wasn't too sure about suggesting it. Lots of routes in the NW suffer from being amazing days out but not top class climbing.