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Apparently a huge rockfall preventing access to the Fourche. This post suggests it's obligatory to leave from the Torino and take the access couloir further to the right (ie the normal access couloir when coming direct from Torino.
http://www.camptocamp.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=2197554#p2197554
http://www.camptocamp.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=2197554#p2197554
1
In reply to jon:
I suppose we just have to accept that ridges are going to fall down eventually. It's in their nature. And why they look so cool - they really are only temporary bits of mountain architecture that have survived against all the odds
I suppose we just have to accept that ridges are going to fall down eventually. It's in their nature. And why they look so cool - they really are only temporary bits of mountain architecture that have survived against all the odds
2
In reply to pneame:
Yes.
Descending from the Refuge des Ecrins (in another lifetime, you understand) on the zig zags near the bottom I was overtaken by Nick B in a cloud of dust, shortcutting straight down. Rob C, me and the rest of our team continued down the path and eventually caught up with Nick sitting on a rock just before the car park. Rob, ever diplomatic, characteristically pushed his glasses back onto the bridge of his nose with his middle finger and said:
"Errr, I really think we should consider the problem of erosion, Nick... "
Nick - and here you have to hear the Kiwi accent - replied:
"Erosion, fu**ing erosion...? If it wasn't for fu**ing erosion there wouldn't be any fu**ing mountains in the first place!"
Yes.
Descending from the Refuge des Ecrins (in another lifetime, you understand) on the zig zags near the bottom I was overtaken by Nick B in a cloud of dust, shortcutting straight down. Rob C, me and the rest of our team continued down the path and eventually caught up with Nick sitting on a rock just before the car park. Rob, ever diplomatic, characteristically pushed his glasses back onto the bridge of his nose with his middle finger and said:
"Errr, I really think we should consider the problem of erosion, Nick... "
Nick - and here you have to hear the Kiwi accent - replied:
"Erosion, fu**ing erosion...? If it wasn't for fu**ing erosion there wouldn't be any fu**ing mountains in the first place!"
Post edited at 13:17
14
In reply to jon:
Excellent realistic pragmatism. The problem is, where is the next playground going to be? Looking around the planet, it seems that we will have to wait until the next ice age. Which may be a while off. Certainly not in anyone around here's lifetime. Or their grandchildren's.
Although thinking about it, the exfoliating bits of Yosemite seem to be generating potential new pitches at a decent rate....
----- further musing---
It says something about UKC when this fairly significant piece of news (to some of us, anyway) barely gets a glance whereas people mis-using a Gri-gri gets massive amounts of excitement.
OK, I'll get back to doing something useful....
> "Erosion, fu**ing erosion...? If it wasn't for fu**ing erosion there wouldn't be any fu**ing mountains in the first place!"
Excellent realistic pragmatism. The problem is, where is the next playground going to be? Looking around the planet, it seems that we will have to wait until the next ice age. Which may be a while off. Certainly not in anyone around here's lifetime. Or their grandchildren's.
Although thinking about it, the exfoliating bits of Yosemite seem to be generating potential new pitches at a decent rate....
----- further musing---
It says something about UKC when this fairly significant piece of news (to some of us, anyway) barely gets a glance whereas people mis-using a Gri-gri gets massive amounts of excitement.
OK, I'll get back to doing something useful....
Post edited at 21:42
2
In reply to pneame:
What's a Gri-gri?
I am interested in the thread, but the chance of me getting to the Alps this year is pretty slim, and the last time that I was in Chamonix it pissed it down all the time.So we headed back to the Lake District where the weather was great!
What's a Gri-gri?
I am interested in the thread, but the chance of me getting to the Alps this year is pretty slim, and the last time that I was in Chamonix it pissed it down all the time.So we headed back to the Lake District where the weather was great!
2
In reply to jon:
Oops, it's the access from the hut on to the ridge that's compromised, not the access to the hut. This would mean that access to the Brenva routes is unaffected - unless of course the descent from the hut is also threatend by the instability. The advice for the Kuffner however remains the same - go direct from Torino.
Oops, it's the access from the hut on to the ridge that's compromised, not the access to the hut. This would mean that access to the Brenva routes is unaffected - unless of course the descent from the hut is also threatend by the instability. The advice for the Kuffner however remains the same - go direct from Torino.
In reply to jon:
that's better I suppose though I quite enjoyed the climbing along the ridge to the kuffner proper.
that's better I suppose though I quite enjoyed the climbing along the ridge to the kuffner proper.
In reply to wbo:
These chaps found the old trident hut platform a pleasant spot -
http://themountainworld.blogspot.com/2007/10/chamonix-debacle.html
Although it would seem that you need to be fairly tough....
These chaps found the old trident hut platform a pleasant spot -
http://themountainworld.blogspot.com/2007/10/chamonix-debacle.html
Although it would seem that you need to be fairly tough....
In reply to jon:
I have 2 pictures of the Kuffner I took from above on sunday 10th, I have to admit I can see no evidence of a major rockfall. I guess I can try and post them if anybodies heading up there and is keen for beta.
I have 2 pictures of the Kuffner I took from above on sunday 10th, I have to admit I can see no evidence of a major rockfall. I guess I can try and post them if anybodies heading up there and is keen for beta.
1
In reply to jon:
An amusing little video: http://www.tvmountain.com/video/alpinisme/7162-bivouac-refuge-de-la-fourche...
But "c'est une grosse poubelle …" seems a bit unkind. What did they want? Room service?
An amusing little video: http://www.tvmountain.com/video/alpinisme/7162-bivouac-refuge-de-la-fourche...
But "c'est une grosse poubelle …" seems a bit unkind. What did they want? Room service?
In reply to pneame:
Thanks for posting that.
"...une grosse poubelle" - was the reference to the hut or to the "merde" and the rubbish nearby?
Given the pictures here http://m.barrabes.fr/blog-montagne/infos/2-7279/ordures-montagne-le-refuge-... (via the Camp to Camp thread that jon posted yesterday), I'd say that "poubelle" was a pretty reasonable description of the environs of the hut. But your French is probably better than mine and the reference was indeed to the hut itself.
Thanks for posting that.
"...une grosse poubelle" - was the reference to the hut or to the "merde" and the rubbish nearby?
Given the pictures here http://m.barrabes.fr/blog-montagne/infos/2-7279/ordures-montagne-le-refuge-... (via the Camp to Camp thread that jon posted yesterday), I'd say that "poubelle" was a pretty reasonable description of the environs of the hut. But your French is probably better than mine and the reference was indeed to the hut itself.
In reply to pneame:
I proclaim myself innocent, we always carried out everything we carried in. Similarly from the Eccles, in fact my partner picked up some of the existing rubbish, despite the pretty exiguous circumstances of our descent.
I proclaim myself innocent, we always carried out everything we carried in. Similarly from the Eccles, in fact my partner picked up some of the existing rubbish, despite the pretty exiguous circumstances of our descent.
In reply to Solaris:
A pity - there must be quite a few people who find that things are not so good and go down. It would be nice to imagine that they take something extra with them. And, of course, as Simon points out you should always take your rubbish. It's not as if it weighs much! It's mostly been eaten, drunk or burnt.
I did notice that squishy looking rock in the video...
It's the tragedy of the commons, sadly.
And, thinking back a long way, I do recall being rather/very envious of some French who were tucking into steak and wine (in bottles). As we tucked into our soup donated by a very kind Tut Braithwaite and Gordon Hibberd who took pity on our ineptitude (actually my ineptitude to be quite specific) as we ran out of fuel.
A pity - there must be quite a few people who find that things are not so good and go down. It would be nice to imagine that they take something extra with them. And, of course, as Simon points out you should always take your rubbish. It's not as if it weighs much! It's mostly been eaten, drunk or burnt.
I did notice that squishy looking rock in the video...
It's the tragedy of the commons, sadly.
And, thinking back a long way, I do recall being rather/very envious of some French who were tucking into steak and wine (in bottles). As we tucked into our soup donated by a very kind Tut Braithwaite and Gordon Hibberd who took pity on our ineptitude (actually my ineptitude to be quite specific) as we ran out of fuel.
In reply to pneame:
I'd agree that the grosse poubelle comment was referring to the rubbish rather than the hut
First time I went to the Fourche 30+ years ago we were heading for the Brenva & there was a French team heading for route Major
We & them had nasty freeze-dried food but didn't run out of fuel
A short time later this old Swiss guy arrives on his own to solo the Kuffner and proceeds to unpack his sack that seemed to be at least half full of meat and veg - he then lights this stove in an enormous ball of flame and cooks up a magnificent stew - he even had a half bottle of red with him
We were exceedingly impressed but he was nice enough to let us taste it
I'd agree that the grosse poubelle comment was referring to the rubbish rather than the hut
First time I went to the Fourche 30+ years ago we were heading for the Brenva & there was a French team heading for route Major
We & them had nasty freeze-dried food but didn't run out of fuel
A short time later this old Swiss guy arrives on his own to solo the Kuffner and proceeds to unpack his sack that seemed to be at least half full of meat and veg - he then lights this stove in an enormous ball of flame and cooks up a magnificent stew - he even had a half bottle of red with him
We were exceedingly impressed but he was nice enough to let us taste it
2
In reply to pneame:
I can't help thinking that some of it has to do with the state of the bivi huts. When I went to the very remote Aar bivouac, it was impeccable, and the guardian (yes, a bivi hut has a guardian), his wife, dog and 2 friends had turned up (by helicopter - I walked there all day), to give it a thorough service. Italian high huts are not like that.
No excuse of course, nor is it the job of the CAI to carry rubbish down for high-altitude mountaineers (and no-one else can reach these bivies), but the "broken window" effect may be applying. The perfect state of remote Swiss bivies may encourage people to be more rigorous with them, though they should be that in any case.
> It's the tragedy of the commons, sadly.
I can't help thinking that some of it has to do with the state of the bivi huts. When I went to the very remote Aar bivouac, it was impeccable, and the guardian (yes, a bivi hut has a guardian), his wife, dog and 2 friends had turned up (by helicopter - I walked there all day), to give it a thorough service. Italian high huts are not like that.
No excuse of course, nor is it the job of the CAI to carry rubbish down for high-altitude mountaineers (and no-one else can reach these bivies), but the "broken window" effect may be applying. The perfect state of remote Swiss bivies may encourage people to be more rigorous with them, though they should be that in any case.
2
In reply to pneame:
Completely agree. I always used to think that in the Alps "proper" ("propre"!) climbers didn't leave their detritus, but sadly it ain't so.
> And, of course, as Simon points out you should always take your rubbish. It's not as if it weighs much! It's mostly been eaten, drunk or burnt.
Completely agree. I always used to think that in the Alps "proper" ("propre"!) climbers didn't leave their detritus, but sadly it ain't so.
In reply to Simon4:
I didn't know the Aar hut - looks a bit of star or two above the bivouac huts in the Mt Blanc area. Quite flash!
Looks quite stunning
I didn't know the Aar hut - looks a bit of star or two above the bivouac huts in the Mt Blanc area. Quite flash!
Looks quite stunning
In reply to pneame:
The Mischabeljoch bivouac is also reported to be stunning. I have yet to get there.
The Swiss are not my favorite people, while I find the Italians to be very "sympatico". But when it comes to remote bivi huts, the Swiss really do things properly, and unfortunately, the Italians are fairly slapdash. Again, not that it is their fault if people behave disgustingly at these remote and life-saving bivouacs.
The Mischabeljoch bivouac is also reported to be stunning. I have yet to get there.
The Swiss are not my favorite people, while I find the Italians to be very "sympatico". But when it comes to remote bivi huts, the Swiss really do things properly, and unfortunately, the Italians are fairly slapdash. Again, not that it is their fault if people behave disgustingly at these remote and life-saving bivouacs.
Post edited at 21:37
In reply to Simon4:
That's an incredibly improbably and comfy looking spot - as you say, typically Swiss and sans the grumpy guardian (although there are exceptions - I'd hate to be accused of typecasting!)
> The Mischabeljoch bivouac is also reported to be stunning. I have yet to get there.
That's an incredibly improbably and comfy looking spot - as you say, typically Swiss and sans the grumpy guardian (although there are exceptions - I'd hate to be accused of typecasting!)
In reply to pneame:
Well it was indeed luxurious for a "bivi" hut. Bit disconcerting when an older Frenchman fell full length on the floor like a sack of spuds though!
Re typcasting, tomorrow we are due to experience the "delights" of the Schreckhorn hut and its legendary guardian.
Well it was indeed luxurious for a "bivi" hut. Bit disconcerting when an older Frenchman fell full length on the floor like a sack of spuds though!
Re typcasting, tomorrow we are due to experience the "delights" of the Schreckhorn hut and its legendary guardian.
Post edited at 20:04
1
In reply to jon:
Not disputing his reputation (too many references from too many people for that), but both he and his wife were actually very nice to us, including when we came down late and very tired from the Schreckhorn.
Fairs fair, we really had no reason to complain.
Not disputing his reputation (too many references from too many people for that), but both he and his wife were actually very nice to us, including when we came down late and very tired from the Schreckhorn.
Fairs fair, we really had no reason to complain.
In reply to jon:
Many years ago (when I still climbed well) I was walking away from the Bonatti Pillar for the 5th or 6th time, having being repulsed for many reasons, but not the climbing. Turning to the partner of the moment I remarked "Never mind it will still be there next year, or the year after!" Ooooops!
Many years ago (when I still climbed well) I was walking away from the Bonatti Pillar for the 5th or 6th time, having being repulsed for many reasons, but not the climbing. Turning to the partner of the moment I remarked "Never mind it will still be there next year, or the year after!" Ooooops!
4
In reply to MG:
Alas not! Though it DOES look hugely impressive from the summit.
I am far too old and decrepit for that! Tired and creaking quite enough from the normal route as it is.
With any reasonable luck, back next Spring to ski the Lauteraarhorn though.
Alas not! Though it DOES look hugely impressive from the summit.
I am far too old and decrepit for that! Tired and creaking quite enough from the normal route as it is.
With any reasonable luck, back next Spring to ski the Lauteraarhorn though.
Post edited at 14:09
In reply to Simon4:
It's not age. I remember after the Schreckhorn normal route (when I was young), getting to the slight uphill to the hut at the end and wondering if I would make it without pausing - it must be all of 10m vertical.
> I am far too old and decrepit for that! Tired and creaking quite enough from the normal route as it is.
It's not age. I remember after the Schreckhorn normal route (when I was young), getting to the slight uphill to the hut at the end and wondering if I would make it without pausing - it must be all of 10m vertical.
In reply to MG:
No, it's more than that... however, at that point I dispatched H, who is much stronger and fitter than I, to pay up and grab any stuff we'd left there while I languished on a rock at the path junction. Then we ran (stumbled) off down to get the last lift - couldn't walk next day, mind. All that rather then spend another night at the mercy of he who shall not be named.
> It's not age. I remember after the Schreckhorn normal route (when I was young), getting to the slight uphill to the hut at the end and wondering if I would make it without pausing - it must be all of 10m vertical.
No, it's more than that... however, at that point I dispatched H, who is much stronger and fitter than I, to pay up and grab any stuff we'd left there while I languished on a rock at the path junction. Then we ran (stumbled) off down to get the last lift - couldn't walk next day, mind. All that rather then spend another night at the mercy of he who shall not be named.
In reply to MG:
The kindly lie .... but I am "broken down by age and sex" (as the statisticians so indelicately put it), or at any rate, by age.
I rememer being young - sometime in the early triassic, just as Italy headed for the North and the mountains began to rise.
At least I THINK that is what I remember.
> It's not age.
The kindly lie .... but I am "broken down by age and sex" (as the statisticians so indelicately put it), or at any rate, by age.
> I remember after the Schreckhorn normal route when I was young ....
I rememer being young - sometime in the early triassic, just as Italy headed for the North and the mountains began to rise.
At least I THINK that is what I remember.
Post edited at 16:03
In reply to Simon4:
So 4000ers are appearing faster than you can climb them!?
>
> I rememer being young - sometime in the early triassic, just as Italy headed for the North and the mountains began to rise.
> I rememer being young - sometime in the early triassic, just as Italy headed for the North and the mountains began to rise.
So 4000ers are appearing faster than you can climb them!?
In reply to Simon4:
Just read Wayne's C2CTR. There was zero snow on the ramp when we did it - we followed the left edge of the ramp all the way on good rock. The bergschrund was a bit of a nightmare but we found the abseil points fine - we'd used them as belays in ascent - maybe you didn't go far enough left (looking out)? Must have been a bit dodgy late on with stuff coming down?
Just read Wayne's C2CTR. There was zero snow on the ramp when we did it - we followed the left edge of the ramp all the way on good rock. The bergschrund was a bit of a nightmare but we found the abseil points fine - we'd used them as belays in ascent - maybe you didn't go far enough left (looking out)? Must have been a bit dodgy late on with stuff coming down?
In reply to jon:
Likewise pretty bare for us.
> The bergschrund was a bit of a nightmare but we found the abseil points fine -
We struggled to find anything. Had to cross the bare ramp near the base then traverse the face a bit - scary whirr-thunk noises at intervals. And yes, I had to check, it's about 40m up to the hut- felt miles!
> Just read Wayne's C2CTR. There was zero snow on the ramp when we did it - we followed the left edge of the ramp all the way on good rock.
Likewise pretty bare for us.
> The bergschrund was a bit of a nightmare but we found the abseil points fine -
We struggled to find anything. Had to cross the bare ramp near the base then traverse the face a bit - scary whirr-thunk noises at intervals. And yes, I had to check, it's about 40m up to the hut- felt miles!
In reply to MG:
Actually, when I said I dispatched H to go and pay, I lied. She said 'Wait here. I'll go and pay. It'll be quicker'.
Actually, when I said I dispatched H to go and pay, I lied. She said 'Wait here. I'll go and pay. It'll be quicker'.
In reply to jon:
An epic, heroic lead on his part to get to the snow, blank, smooth, protectionless rock climbed teetering on crampon points. I could barely follow it with a solid belay, not least because I had got so cold. Far harder than any rock climbing on the route proper, also quite un-necessary as I was sure I could see a better line, to the right looking up.
The snow descending the ramp/couloir is best described as "not as bad as it might have been." We were seriously dreading it when we got to the first bits of complete porridge on the rock ridge, but in the end it went all right if you were (very) carefull. Although the sun that day was intense, the couloir/ramp was largely in shadow, fortunately. One big rock did come down heading straight for Wayne, I screamed at him and he managed to dodge it, other than that, not much coming down though plenty of rocks embedded in the snow.
We did eventually see a bolt below in descent, (on the left of the stream, looking down) could reach it after placing some tat for a higher abseil.
> Just read Wayne's C2CTR. Maybe you didn't go far enough left (looking out)? Must have been a bit dodgy late on with stuff coming down?
An epic, heroic lead on his part to get to the snow, blank, smooth, protectionless rock climbed teetering on crampon points. I could barely follow it with a solid belay, not least because I had got so cold. Far harder than any rock climbing on the route proper, also quite un-necessary as I was sure I could see a better line, to the right looking up.
The snow descending the ramp/couloir is best described as "not as bad as it might have been." We were seriously dreading it when we got to the first bits of complete porridge on the rock ridge, but in the end it went all right if you were (very) carefull. Although the sun that day was intense, the couloir/ramp was largely in shadow, fortunately. One big rock did come down heading straight for Wayne, I screamed at him and he managed to dodge it, other than that, not much coming down though plenty of rocks embedded in the snow.
We did eventually see a bolt below in descent, (on the left of the stream, looking down) could reach it after placing some tat for a higher abseil.
Post edited at 23:04
In reply to MG:
It would have been a LOT easier to climb them, or at any rate step on where the tops of them were going to be, before they became 4000ers. Then I could have truthfully said that I had summited all of them, without the effort, danger and cost of doing so now.
Hindsight always has 20-20 vision!
> So 4000ers are appearing faster than you can climb them!?
It would have been a LOT easier to climb them, or at any rate step on where the tops of them were going to be, before they became 4000ers. Then I could have truthfully said that I had summited all of them, without the effort, danger and cost of doing so now.
Hindsight always has 20-20 vision!
In reply to Simon4:
My experience too, but only after we'd pissed Hans off a week or so earlier by cooking on his doorstep. I wonder what you and I have in common that Jon doesn't have - a certain badge, perhaps?!
My experience too, but only after we'd pissed Hans off a week or so earlier by cooking on his doorstep. I wonder what you and I have in common that Jon doesn't have - a certain badge, perhaps?!
Post edited at 13:38
In reply to MG:
Martin, you *are* young.
Ah, but having written that, I recall that you are preparing your excuses for not having enough time left to do all the alpine 4000ers. Consider your cover blown!
> It's not age. I remember after the Schreckhorn normal route (when I was young)...
Martin, you *are* young.
Ah, but having written that, I recall that you are preparing your excuses for not having enough time left to do all the alpine 4000ers. Consider your cover blown!
1
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