UKC

I have been investigating ways and means to make an attempt on Mont Blanc. Being an experienced "hill walker" (Lake District, Ben Nevis (Summer), Brecon Beacons etc.), I have had no real experience in alpine conditions. I can use crampons and Ice axes, and understand how to self arrest.

The obvious choice is to join an organised trip, but to a humble family man who would be taking precious holiday time to partake - these seem very expensive (2K +) and aside of all that If I was to do it I would like to climb the mountain on my own terms.

I have and will continue to research/plan everything in minute detail, however there is one area I cannot account for that being acclimatization. All the groups seem to suggest 1 day is sufficient to accommodate this before ascending to the huts and beyond.

My questions are -
Should I be considering this at all - given my level of expertise ?
I plan to do the whole trip over 7 days is this long enough
Is 1 day sufficient to acclimatize
If this is simply a pipe dream are there some alternatives that will offer the full "Alpine Experience" without killing me in the process?

In reply to Alistair:
Hi Alistair, I did the gouter route (on my 1st alpine trip)a few years ago. There is some scrambling up to the gouter hut (and rockfall danger crossing the grand couloir) but no real climbing as such. We spent day 1 going to the gouter hut and then went to the summit and back down to the valley on day 2. Before mont blanc we did the petite verte (an easily accessible short route) to acclimatise. You could also get one of the telepheriques up into the mountains and spend a night bivying for extra acclimatisation. All in all if you are an experienced mountain walker who is comfortable at scrambling i'd say go for it. Practice some basic alpine rope work before you go.

In reply to Alistair:

A few points

One day is no where near sufficient acclimatisation. Think 3 or 4 days, ideally of increasing altitudeat, least.

There are hundreds of alternatives! In fact MB by the normal routes is not much of an alpine experience at all - crowded, somewhat boring and surprisingly dangerous.

The Gouter couloir is particularly dangerous. Google to see videos of why.

All this said with your experience and a keen friend, you should have no problem. I would suggest a window of 10 days to allow for bad weather but a week (or less)is possible.

In reply to Alistair:

You don't say who you are going with. A friend? Or are you planning to solo it?

No one knows how well they acclimatise until they go to altitude. A week is enough, but it doesn't give you a second chance if the weather is bad at the wrong time.

You also want to ask yourself whether you simply want to climb MB or enjoy some Alpine mountaineering as well. If you just go and bivi at altitude, where's the fun in that? The Aiguille du Tour is an excellent, straightforward peak. The Gran Paradiso is another good acclimatisation peak. Both could be seen as good mountaineering experiences in their own right.

But, for even these peaks and MB you need a partner. Even the Gran Paradiso will be a step up from Ben Nevis by the tourist track in winter (let alone summer).

Anything technically harder is going to need a more experienced partner (or a guide).

Personally, I'd say go for MB but try to make the week worthwhile in any case.

In reply to Alistair:

Does it have to be MB?

Could you go to say Zermatt area and attempt some less serious hills, but still get experience of 4000m? At least to begin with anyway.

Everyone is different, but I'd suggest that with 1 days acclimatisation for MB, there's a good chance you'll be rough as a badgers arse at the very least.

AS I'm only likely to get to do this sort of thing once I was hoping to try for Mont Blanc.

Thanks for all the responses certainly food for thought. I will keep planning as if this is what I will be doing then make my mind up later on in the year.

Thanks

Alistair

In reply to Alistair:
Answers to your questions based on safety:
- It'd be wrong not to consider it, but focus on the dangers rather than your own capabilities.. via the Gouter Route it is mostly a snow plod, but with rockfall and crevasse danger.
- Seven days is enough, if the weather is with you.
- To acclimatise properly, no..
- Lots, some already suggested.

Answers to your questions based on my own experience of MB via the Gouter Route, on my first alps trip, solo...:
- I'd done some scrambling, easy winter climbing, hill walking etc in the UK before a solo winter ascent of Rysy (2499m) in Poland, and a spring ascent of Toubkal (4080m-ish) in Morocco.. but no true alpine experience to speak of.
- I was in Chamonix for 7 days, and summited MB on day 4.
- I went straight for the summit, only suffering any altitude effects at the Gouter refuge, which subsided after eating and sleeping. Aside general tiredness/short of breath the next morning whilst heading for the summit I was absolutely fine, I was the sixth one to summit that morning, ahead of maybe 100 others.

In hindsight I was probably somewhat naive to have done the climb under my circumstances, but it was the best experience of my life and topping out under my own steam was the icing on the cake.

In reply to Alistair:

Myself and a friend did the Gouter route last year at the start of August.
We had done a fair amount of summer and winter walking in the UK.

We were both confident in the UK but had never been to the Alps.
We opted to go it alone without a guide, the best decision we made!

Some advice though.
- Spend as many days acclimatising as possible. Our trip was 10 days and we spent the 5 days acclimatising. Its simple, the more you do the better your body should cope. 1 day does not sound sufficient.
- Get fit. Plenty of walking or running, the fitter you are the easier it will be. The technical difficulty is low but it is a long slog. I asked the same questions before i went and glad i bit the bullet and went for it. I was pleasantly surprised at how straight forward it was with good preparation.
- Get some crevasse rescue gear and make sure you know how to use it. Probably wont need to but its good to know how. Plenty of books and youtube videos to teach you.

Feel free to DM me if you want any other info or exact details of our trip.

Ben

In reply to Alistair:

Yes, it's reasonable. But I would add skills of working on steep ice / snow roped together and arresting each other falls.

Very personal. Personally I would spend 1 - 2 days at 3000 - 4000m before going to summit. But some people can comfortably jump to summit from the valley.

Maybe try something easy and short first? Like Arete des Cosmiques? Can be a good day for acclimatisation as well.

Generally I think it's a rip off to pay £2k for Mont Blanc offred by British tour operators. If you want to go with a guide hire one in Charmonix for accrual climb. Normally it's 2 days of work and for both you and your partner it will cost about 500 euros per head:
http://www.chamonix-guides.eu/Produit/56/Categorie/14/16-summer-activities....

In reply to Alistair:

Hi Alistair,

not done MB so nothing to say regarding the route itself- but the acclimitisation has the potential to be a problem. I have been to 5000m+ in the Andes, and even with several days acclimatizing at over 3000m still felt generally rotten. It can be much worse though- HACE and HAPE are bad news, and rapid ascent to nearly 5000m, as MB is, carries real risk of these. Many will be absolutely fine- but there's no way of telling how you will manage til you are there, so I'd advise building plenty of time to acclimatize into your schedule

best wishes
gregor

In reply to Alistair:
Hi Alistair,

If you've not been higher than Ben Nevis before, the altitude is your thing to think about. Don't underestimate & give yourself at least 3/4 days within your trip to get to grips with this. This is to give yourself best chance. ignore the idea that folk can go from the valley to the summit comfortably - these people are the exception (if they even exist . Even with some acclimatisation chances are you'll feel dreadful above 4000m - expect to ...but this is all part of the experience!

In reply to Alistair:
A friend and I did Mont Blanc last month up the Trois Monts, down the Gouter.
Neither of us are experienced mountaineers but do some climbing back home, nothing that serious (especially if my friend has his daughter with him), usually just messing about with a top rope at Symonds Yat. We did our homework and read up as much as we could/thought we needed to.
If you're planning on doing it this year you may be out of luck with Gouter bookings. We made our arrangements at fairly short notice and got lucky. The Gouter was booked solid so I booked the Cosmiques instead. I kept my eye on the Gouter booking website though and a space became available the night after our Cosmique booking so I grabbed it. This meant that if conditions were good for the Trois Monts we wouldn't be forced to cross the Grand Couloir late in the day and stop at the Tete Rousse or return all the way to the Nid d'Agile. Had conditions not been good for the Trois Monts we had the option of just doing the Gouter Route.
We spent a week in the area, arrived on a Saturday and went to the Mer de Glace (up the railway then down all the ladders) for a stomp about (first time I'd used crampons, my friend had once before) and with the intention of practicing crevasse rescue technique (we opted for Mammut Rescyou each as they're so easy to set up).
On Sunday it was flip a coin between going to the Albert 1er hut or the Argentiere, we opted for the latter. We climbed the Petit Aiguille Vert before descending and crossing the Glacier to the hut. On the Monday we left the hut early to climb the Aiguille d'Argentiere. After a second night at the hut we descended the glacier to the mid-way station and back to Chamonix. The rest of the Tuesday and Wednesday we chilled out a bit. About midday on the Wed we headed up the Aiguille du Midi cable car and made our way to the Cosmiques. We left the Cosmiques at about 2am the next morning and successfully summited about 10am, we got down to the Gouter by about 1pm. A night in the Gouter and we were able to leave sensible time on the Friday morning to get across the Grand Couloir early morning before too many rocks were coming down.
I think our acclimatisation strategy worked, I was full of energy going up the Tacul but we were held up by some slower parties which we couldn't easily pass. I have to admit though that we found it tough on the final slog to the summit, I preferred to just keep up a slow steady plod but my mate seemed to be going faster but stopping frequently (not ideal when your roped together) but we made it up and avoided falling out so all was good lol
My concern was route finding and navigation, I was very keen to put all the waypoints in the GPS but the reality was it just wasn't necessary (path well trodden and other people about including guided parties). The only time we had the slightest navigation 'concern' was when the mist came in on the descent to the Argentiere hut from the Petit Aiguille Vert but a basic bit of compass sighting saw us right.
The L'Office de Haute Montagne had told us that the one fixed rope on the crux part of the Maudit was still buried with snow and ice. When we got there it wasn't (of someone had fixed another) but there was a bit of a bottleneck. I lead the first pitch but put a prussic on the fixed rope for security and used my knee to hold the slack end as I slid the prussic up. I lead the second pitch and didn't place any pro on the way up. For this part it's useful for the leader to have two (semi technical) axes.

I couldn't tell you how much difference the acclimatisation made but I feel we did the right thing with building up to it and spending a couple of nights at a reasonable but not silly altitude. I certainly wouldn't attempt it wit only one day acclimatising. While I was fairly out of breath on the final climb to the summit of Mont Blanc, I didn't feel at all unwell during any of the climbing and had only a very mild headache while staying at the Gouter.

Hope this helps.

In reply to Alistair:

As others have said, via the gouter isn't technical, but it's a slog and unless you know you adapt well to altitude I'd say one day acclimatising is really chancing it and not enough. My first trip up MB was thwarted by my mate having serious problems near the domes due to the altitude, and we'd been acclimatising on Mont Blanc du Tacul and other higher peaks for a few days and going well.

To avoid disappointment, or simply having a rotten time struggling up whilst poorly acclimatised I'd say make sure you have a few days high to acclimatise, ideally spending the night. Rest up the day before your attempt then go for it if weather allows. Use your acclimatisation days to work out what you're doing with ropes, what your happy and unhappy on roped together etc.

Some people adapt really well and can head up relatively quickly - but I'd not try unless you know you do well at altitude!

If in doubt as the day approaches, arrange a guide locally whilst you are out there. Might mean changing you're plans slightly.

7 days will be ok if you have good weather and acclimatise normally I think. There isn't much fat in there for bad weather days though so be prepared to miss the summit if you don't get the weather.

cheers,

Stu

In reply to Alistair:

One day of acclimatisation is is not enough in my opinion, a week would be better.

There are a couple of other things you could think about to get the most out of your trip. Have you been to the Alps before? Just getting used to the scale and seriousness of the mountains can take a little while if you're only familiar with the UK.

The other is evaluating conditions, for me this is the hardest thing about climbing in the Alps - learning how to get information about forecasts and planning your movements over the week or 10 days that you'll be there.

If this is a one-shot trip of a lifetime to the Alps, l personally would forget about Mont Blanc and go for some of the other options mentioned in this thread (and in the many similar threads on UKC).

My suggestion would be the Gressoney valley in Italy, to climb some of the big (and easy) mountains on the Swiss/Italian border.

In reply to Alistair:

I climbed Mt Blanc re the 3 monts route the day after I arrived in Chamonix because the weather was good. It was extremely unwise and I was lucky to get way with it. I felt a bit sick for a while in the morning until I got going. However, I was quite experienced and knew the risks. Much better to take at least a week.

In reply to crice:

This is an awesome response and one I can take and look at in comparison to what I am proposing to achieve,. Thank you so much for the level of detais

Thanks everyone lots of good knowledgeable responses - all saying roundabout the same thing - I have a year to ponder this so will take away all these and evaluate what I am looking to do and what I need to do to get there.

Rest assure I am mindful enough not to do take any undue risk and if it doesn't happen at least I can walk away from it intact.

Thanks again for all your contributions

In reply to Alistair:

This won't add much to the responses you have already received, but hope it helps.

My first alpine trip was a week and we planned to do MB, but weren't able to due to the weather.

I did it a couple of years later with my son. We did petit aguille vert before hand but that was the only acclimatisation route we did, because we decided to go for it in a forecast weather window before it deteriorated again. So it is possible in a week if you lucky with the weather, on the other hand if you are very unluckly you could be there for 2 weeks and not be able to do it.

We had booked the Tete Rousse and Gouter huts, but when we went to confirm they denied all knowledge of us at the Gouter (probably our places were given to a french guide and client, the french have a history of that sort of thing). So we ended up going from the Tete Rousse to the summit, and back to the valley in one very long day!

We felt like s**t from the Valot to the summit, but we did it. This shows what is possible if you are fit and if you lucky enough to acclimatise relatively well (which as someone has said is very individual). If we had been able to acclimatise more, undoubtedly we would have enjoyed it more.

As has been said the Gouter route is very busy and not a great experience, if your experience is suitable I would say go for the 3M's route instead if you can.

Hope that helps, and good luck with it.

In reply to Alistair:
I don't think anyone else has said this so : why not go in September ? The huts are much quieter and the weather usually more stable.

In reply to Adderbury Climber:

I'd heard bad things about the Gouter Refuge so was preparing myself for it to be a bad experience but nothing could have been further from the truth (apart from it costing €100 with food compared to the €65 of the Cosmiques). The Cosmiques actually seemed 'busier' than the Gouter but both were pleasant.

In reply to Adderbury Climber:


This feels like really bad advice to give to someone who's never been to altitude. Is it hyperbolic to suggest that if you feel like shit and just keep going higher then you've got a fair chance of oedema and death?

In reply to humptydumpty:

No, probably not hyperbolic. Whilst I think the realistic risk of death from altitude sickness at this altitude is slim, it has happened.
To keep ascending when you're feeling shit is extremely unwise. You may think "it's only another couple of hundred meters and we'll be on our way back down" but you can deteriorate quickly and the time from onset of symptoms to being in a serious condition or even dead has been measured in hours.
Furthermore, it may not be the oedema that kills you. If you're not thinking straight or are off balance it would be very easy to make a mistake or fall.
Another mistake people make is thinking that because they are very fit they are immune from the effects of altitude. Altitude affects us all the same and those who are very fit are often tempted to over exert themselves or try to perform as they would at sea level which is simply not possible and can expose them to greater risk.

In reply to humptydumpty:

You said;
'This feels like really bad advice to give to someone who's never been to altitude. Is it hyperbolic to suggest that if you feel like shit and just keep going higher then you've got a fair chance of oedema and death?'

I wasn't recommending do it without acclimatisation. I am sure I am not the only person who would have enjoyed the last part of the climb more if he had felt better!

Were we taking a risk, possibly slightly, but we certainly didn't feel we were risking death. We had a bad headache and felt slightly nauseous, but we knew what we were doing, were still thinking straight and our balance was not affected. If we had deteriorated we could have turned round at any point, and would have done.

In reply to Adderbury Climber:

People rarely do, and yet...

In reply to crice:


This. You'll feel like shit, but aside for some horrific storm coming in you'd have to try pretty hard to get yourself in a position on MB (especially if you were trying to go the easy way) where you would be high enough long enough to die from HACE/HAPE.

To the OP: as much as it goes to the top of Mont Blanc, the Gouter route is actually incredibly dull and not dissimilar to a motorway. I'd suggest gaining some alpine experience just so you can go another way.

In reply to ianstevens:


I did the three monts route way back in 1883. We descended the Bosses ridge, a few hundred metres from the summit we came across someone laying on the snow. I believe she was Japanese, no one in her group spoke any European language, non of our group spoke Japanese. It was hard to work out what had happened but we could find no sign of life. I can only think it was some form of altitude sickness, we called a helicopter who took her away. Her group descended into France we went down the Italian side, I never did find out exactly what had happened. 4800m is plenty high enough for HACE/HAPE.

In reply to OwenM:

You did well to find a helicopter in 1883

In reply to crice:

Woops must learn to type.

In reply to Alistair:
Hi Alistair

I have just returned from my first week in the Alps, which also resulted in a successful summit of Mont Blanc.

My advice would be keep your options open.

I wanted to do the Trois Monts, for the quieter route, and booked the Cosmiques for the night before. I had plans to acclimatise on the Aguille D'Argentiere, and Cosmiques Ar£te, as well as pulling each other out of crevasses on the Glacier Argentiere.

Then the weather changed, and was unable to stick with the plan. 3M was too risky as there had been fresh snowfall.

Petite Aguille Verte was ok so did that, but didn't really feel like I was that high at 3500. We decided to do the Cosmiques Ar£te and stay at the Midi for as long as possible as that is 3800.

Feeing like I had some experience at altitude now I rang the Gouter to see if they had cancellations, which they did, so set off to the hut at 11:00am. After a non eventful crossing of the Grand Couloir, and a night in the Gouter I summited at 6:20am with about 20 others on the route.

Lots of people I spoke to were guided, and stayed in the Tete Rouse overnight, to cross the Grand Couloir in the morning, which meant scrambling up to the Gouter before doing the route. In my mind this is quite an energetic way of getting to the summit. They would then stay in the Gouter on the way back down so they could cross the Grand Couloir again in the morning. That's nearly three days guiding for an easy route.

So in the end for me, although I didn't get to do the 3M, I got a successful summit bid, relatively quiet and no issues at the Grand Couloir in morning or afternoon. I had two days up high which seemed ok for me. The guided route seems long winded to me.

Hope that helps

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Hi,

You say you were in Charmonix for 7 days, and submitted MB on day 4.

Could you be so kind to give me a more detailed explanation of your acclimatisation progress in Charmonix? Am trying to organise myself currently.

Best

In reply to herbertvl:
I didn't, to be quite frank! But it went as follows:

Day one: Arrived from Paris around noon.
Day two: Explored Chamonix.
Day three: Climbed to the Gouter Refuge.
Day four: Summited and returned to Chamonix.

As I acknowledged, it wasn't a wise plan, and certainly wouldn't recommend it, or even re-attempt it myself.. but I was somewhat naive, and having previously done Imlil (1700m) to Jbel Toubkal (4100m) and back in a day I thought/hoped the time spent at the Gouter Refuge would see me right. I was correct, it did.. but what I didn't anticipate was the slight drunken feeling on arrival at 3200m, having experienced no problems straight to 4100m previously. Proof as if it were needed that altitude will always have a different effect on different days!

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

So what is the recommended acclimatisation process in Charmonix with about four days time? I can't seem to find a concrete overview anywhere here.

In reply to Alistair:

Is this a good acclimatisation process for summit Montblanc:

Day 1: Chamonix - Les Contamines

Day 2: Les Contamines - Courmayeur

Day 3: Courmayeur - Champex

Day 4: Champex - Chamonix

Day 5: Rest in Chamonix

Day 6 & 7: Summit MB

In reply to herbertvl:

That doesn't sound like you are getting very high. You will want to sleep and climb progressively higher each day, ideally getting above 4000m before attempting MB.

In reply to MG:

Acclimatisation is completely individual and 100% unpredictable. Last year my mate and I went to the Margherita hut (4550m) over 3 days, sleeping at 2600m then 3600m(Gnifetti hut) .The original plan had been to fart about on some lower 4000ers for a couple of days before heading for Dufourspitze but the weather intervened. I was OK at the Margerita but my pal wasn't and we went straight down (admittedly in a hoodie) the next morning. You need to aim progressively higher over a few days if you're going to have a fair chance of (a) not getting ill and (b) enjoying the experience at the time.
I'd suggest going round the corner to Zermatt and doing Castor and Pollux before attempting MB. That will give you one or two nights at 3300-3500m and 2 summits over 4000.

In reply to MG:

25th: Meeting with everyone in Chamonix, stay in an hotel/air bnb.

26th: Crampon training + climb Petit Aiguille Vert (3200m), spend night in Chamonix

27th: Climb the traverse of the Aiguille d Entreves, night in the Cosmiques hut (3613m)

28th: Cosmiques ridge on Aigille du Midi (3849m), night in Chamonix, meet guides

29th & 30th: Climb Mont Blanc

What do you think of this instead? In combination with maybe spending a night in the Torino hut on my way over to Chamonix.

In reply to colinakmc:

What do you think of this, in Zermatt?


Jul 25: Arrive in Zermatt, sleep in Airbnb/Hotel in town

Jul 26: Hike up to Schoenbielhuette, 2700m
Elevation change: 1800m-2700m
Beautiful hike into quiet Schoenbiehl valley off Zermatt, along the north face of the Matterhorn (4-6hrs). Sleep in the Schoenbielhuette, at around 2700m.

Jul 27: Hike up to Hoernlihuette, 3200 then down to 2700m
Elevation change: 2700-2200-3200-1800
Hike up Hoernlie Huette, Base Camp of Matterhorn (4-6hrs) Sleep at Base Camp Matterhorn, at around 2800m

Jul 28: Summit Breithorn, 4200m
We'd take the cable car up to 3800m, and then do an easy hike in the snow from there to Breithorn (4200m)
Supposedly, Very good chance to get used to the high altitude?!
Head to Chamonix in evening, get nice dinner, meet guides.

Jul 29-30: Summit Montblanc, 4810m as discussed

In reply to herbertvl:
More like it but rather than the (hugely expensive and not that pleasant) Hoenli, why not two nights at Schoenbiel and a peak at ~3500m from there? There are endless possibilities but progressively higher is the key. Look at the Gran Paradise area too.