UKC

The Chamonix Rockfax is now available for pre-ordering at a special offer price of £25.95 (RRP £34.95).

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Very good quality photos! But.. you just missed the climbing season

In reply to UKC Gear:

FYI Pre-order links and Rockfax App links not working on iPad as far as I can see guys

In reply to Shapeshifter:


Which ones?

They seem okay here although the sample preview isn't showing on the iPad.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Check out the book and Sample chapter links have some text but no images on iPad (well mine anyway) Alan. Also the Rockfax App section image is blank. Looks great btw I will be preordering.

Cheers

In reply to UKC Gear:
From the preview, why are UK grades not included in the grade comparison table? At least the technical grade would be helpful. Its not essential I suppose, its just odd - USA grades are there but not UK ones (maybe its a stupid question - I have virtually 0 alpine experience but would like to go one day...)

In reply to UKC Gear: To those not seeing images- I initially had that problem as a result of the download being corrupted (I ran out of space on my ipad). You may want to retry the download although eventually my fix included deinstalling and reinstalling the app

In reply to UKC Gear:

Being in France this summer we found several local guidebooks and posters at crags which asked climbers to not buy Rockfax as they do not contribute to maintenance and bolting of new routes (I don't know if this is true, it's what they say!). And instead buy the local guide, which means you pay (at least a bit) into the gear you are using.

In the new ceuse topo we even found a route named "f..ck Rockfax".

Is it indeed true that Rockfax doesn't give any of its income to the locals? And if so, should we not all support the crags we climb at and buy the local guidebook instead?

In reply to Annelies:

I wonder if Alan pressed the dislike button ?

I did the first like BTW.

The issue of who funds bolting and guidebook producers benefiting but not contributing is often ignored by the climbing bolt users. It needs sorting.

Anyone from Rockfax care to comment ?

In reply to Annelies:

One of the problems I've experienced, especially in the South of France, is actually getting hold of a local guide. You hear all sorts of advice. You can get one at the cafe or the Patisserie down the road or the Vineyard or the garage on the high street when as often as not there are none available at all. I've wasted days trying to track down guide books like that. I don't know if Rockfax contribute or not, IMO they should, but my prime concern, especially when I am at the location, is getting hold of a guide that does the job well and Rockfax have shown the way in that regard several times. Also bear in mind that this is not a sport climbing guide but one for an area that has been plagiarised several times over.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


Fair comment.
But is not good,sometimes, just to climb the crag, without a guidebook ? Had excellent days out like that.


That does not excuse not contributing.

In reply to UKC Gear:

Maybe we the climbers should contribute more to bolts?

It's kind of tradition for guidebook companies to donate I guess.

In reply to Rick Graham:

I don't disagree but with regard to Chamonix who would any contribution go to? CAF, Alpine Club? Did the first alpine guides produced in the UK contribute to the CAF ?

Al

In reply to Annelies:
Hi Annelies

Thanks for your question.

We do donate to local bolt funds and have a system now where by funds from many of our new books are channeled towards the bolting in the area they cover. This has been very successful in the UK with plenty of funds raised for the Yorkshire BF, Cumbria BF, North Wales BF and Gary Gibson's efforts in Clwyd, plus some path work on Portland from the Dorset Bouldering guide. We have also donated funds in El Chorro and Mallorca and have another big donation waiting to be made in Mallorca once the local politics can be sorted. We have an arrangement with theSend to make funds available from our Kalymnos app but so far sales haven't reached a level that make it worthwhile.

In this Chamonix guidebook we haven't put anything specifically aside for bolting since it is a very complex area with a lot of competing commercial concerns and much of the bolting is looked after by the local guides creating routes for their activities. Jack Geldard (one of the main authors) is a local climber and I have already supported him with his rebolting efforts at Barberine and will continue to do so.

The books you are talking about are probably the Haute Provence guide and St. Leger specifically I guess. These books were written before we set up our funding scheme where the funds are tied to the book. When initially writing the France:HP book back in 2009 I contacted the FFME and tried to discuss with them about how we could help support bolting. The reply basically just said don't produce a guidebook - there was no room for negotiation. I have tried on several occasions to contact the locals at St. Leger but they have ignored all my approaches be those direct emails, or via friends/contacts of theirs.

We have had an open invite on our web site for the last four years for people in areas covered by Rockfax guidebooks to get in touch to see what ways we can help them with their bolting efforts.

I also think it is worth pointing out that UKC and all the free resources it provides have only been possible due to the funding supplied for many years from Rockfax guidebooks.

Information about our donations is posted regularly on the Rockfax web site - http://www.rockfax.com/news/category/donations/

Hope that answers your question but I am happy to expand if you want more info.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Hi Alan,

That definitely answers my question. And I appreciate it is not always easy to get into contact with people to arrange these kind of payments. Clearly it also depends on the area etc.

However I do think climbers often go on a trip, expecting good bolts, route names on the rock and other safety and convenience related things but forget these things cost money. Perhaps Rockfax could use its position in the UK climbing community to make people aware of it and for example advise where to by the local topo and mention other ways one can contribute towards a crag.

If a new Rockfax for the Haute Provence is planned, I would strongly advise talking to the locals in st. Leger and Ceuse first! (They are easy to find, if you try).

Cheers,
Annelies

In reply to Annelies:


I agree with you there.


Well we do a lot and we are one of the few (possibly only) guidebook producers that frequently list alternative local guidebooks in the pages of our books. I am happy to consider doing more though.

I am not aware of easy ways that climbers can contribute to the crag development in France and Spain. There is occasionally a tin on a bar but, as far as I am aware, few (if any) areas have got PayPal accounts that make donations easy like the UK Bolt Funds all have.

TBH the more you look into local bolt funding the more complicated and unclear it becomes. There is no doubt that local guidebooks make a contribution to bolting in some areas. In other areas this is said to happen and it doesn't and in some places it isn't even said to happen but people assume it. In yet more areas the guidebook is written by a local activist and the funds he/she makes from guidebook sales are seen as a recompense for his/her efforts - nothing wrong with this but I have yet to see that actually stated in the guidebook and these funds are not usually used for rebolting.

Whatever the case, I doubt if there is anywhere that the bolting is 100% funded by guidebook sales. The numbers aren't big enough and most of the bolting is done before the guidebook exists.

In my experience a lot of bolting is funded by local town councils who wish to promote their areas for tourism. In these cases I assume that a Rockfax is welcome and we have had that feedback from some people albeit those more involved in tourism than climbing.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


Well that's not true, Alan. Take Gilles Brunot's guides - he actually states that.

In reply to jon:


Excellent. I haven't seen that guide but I have met Gilles and I know what a dedicated equipper he is. In fact we are working with him on an App version of his guide which I am sure will be used in a similar way.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I should add that of course it's not just one guide. He's now on something like the 5th(?) edition. For the last 20 odd years he's ploughed back all profits into equipment of routes and re-equipment. Also there's his Giffre guide that does the same thing. That must represent tens of thousands of euros.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


The amount of tourism that Rockfax has indirectly introduced into local economies must surely be significant for a lot of places. How many people were visiting Ariege for example before and after the RF publication I wonder.

>in 2009 I contacted the FFME and tried to discuss with them about how we could help support bolting. The reply basically just said don't produce a guidebook -

Ha, the old Vampire Rockfax thread is back. Don't be slippery now Alan, you know fine well that the reason they didn't want you to feature certain crags (like Buoux) in your guidebook was because they had just spent years negotiating access after climbing had been completely banned. These crags simply cannot absorb a large influx of climbers without putting pressure on the access agreements. This was explained to you but you went ahead anyway :/ The bolt funding issue was only ever a secondary issue.

In reply to nb:


Wasn't the Buoux access situation sorted in the 1980s? That is when it was banned. I can't remember Buoux being mentioned in 2009.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

It was partly sorted in the 80s. However, the Face Ouest remained banned until a few years back when it was reopened to climbing after (obviously) very lengthy negotiations. Les confines remains banned. If you remember, Natalie wrote just that a few months back when tha Buoux wild camping problem raised its ugly head again.

In reply to jon:


Yes I remember that. The wild camping thing was camper vans in the parking areas I think. I meant the total ban Neil was referring to which had been sorted around 20 years before the Rockfax was published.

As far as I am aware, the access information for Buoux in the Rockfax guide is correct but not fully up-to-date as of 2016 since we didn't include Face Ouest because that was banned in 2009.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Here is an extract from a letter I sent you back in the Rockfax Vampire Topo days. As Jon says the West Face was only opened relatively recently after a 25 year ban. Jon is a shining example of how an ex-pat can integrate a climbing community and contribute to the development of the local crags. Be like Jon!!

"There is a big difference between France and the UK in terms of access. In the UK there are very few problems directly related to over-use of the resource. Problems have occurred where climbers didn’t respect certain guidelines – access paths, parking, nesting restrictions etc.. – but these have generally been resolved the Rockfax/BMC way, by ensuring that access information is made widely available.

The problem in France is that the land around certain crags simply cannot cope with the sheer number of climbers wanting to visit. So even if all these climbers behave perfectly, there will still be an access issue. The only way to address this problem is to limit the number of climbers visiting, and the French have found 2 workable solutions: (1) banning climbing (2) not producing a topo. Rockfax prides itself on publishing topos to areas which are not yet covered, but usually the main reason behind this lack of coverage is to protect access to the crag.

Two crags in your Haute Provence guide have a history of access problems – Buoux and Baume Rousse. At Baume Rousse the landowner no longer recognises the access convention that was negotiated by the FFME. There are approx 650 of these conventions throughout France and without them climbing would risk being banned at these sites because of liability issues.

The countryside in France is a resource used by a large number of local people – hunters, walkers, farmers, environmentalists etc... All these users groups have far more powerful lobbies within local and national politics than rock-climbers. If climbers are seen as being detrimental to the local way of life – for example by encumbering the available parking spaces on narrow roads or disturbing wildlife - then they will be the first to face restrictions. Local politics has an enormous influence on rural French life and town councils are vested with considerable powers.

The national park lobby has also become very threatening in recent years, looking to close large areas of some nature reserves to public access. The Calanques, the Verdon and the Sixt area of Haute-Savoie are all concerned.

In your letter to Pierre You, you argue at length that Rockfax will bring a large influx of climbers into the regions concerned and promote tourism. This is, at best, irrevalent to the work of the FFME because their priority is to defend the interests of climbers, not promote tourism. Indeed an influx of climbers will even aggravate the access issue in most places. In any case you undermine your economic argument in the same paragraph by proclaiming that climbers follow new Rockfax guides; so five years down the line you will have attracted your customers elsewhere. Such is the logic of the Rockfax marketing strategy."

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:



Well yes, and at the time I'd imagine subject to their ongoing negotiations? But for what it's worth I'm not sure Neil's right about that being the main issue - I'd always understood that was more that the FFME could see guidebook profits going your way and not into their coffers to fund re-equipment, access negotiations etc and was more centered around St Leger?

In reply to nb:

But it appears that, despite the 2009 Rockfax, the access at Buoux has improved since 2009 since we now have Face Ouest.

Alan

PS. Yes, I acknowledge the recent camper problems but these are a modern trend amongst full-time climbers. It happens at hard sport crags in both France and Spain and isn't connected to the presence of an international guidebook. eg. Margalef has no such guidebook but had camper problems until recently when they closed the camper area.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Just a test to see if the suggestion that this thread has been closed is correct.

In reply to jon:


Hi Jon

You are right.
I spend every year in average about 5000 € only for bolts, belays (and drills). The 5th edition of Vallée de l'Arve isn't finished it's the 2nd of Vallée du Giffre and next year a new guide but it's still secret !

Gilles

In reply to UKC Gear:
Re investing profits in rebolting. Could you please pay for all the belays on the Walker Spur to be bolted.

In reply to Rick Graham:



Hi Rick
Can you expand on this a bit please.
Cheers

In reply to Annelies:

A novel thought. But you buy the aiguilles rouges 1 and 2- then can't identify anything because it is all sketching. Save 60 quid and buy the rockfax, Then donate a few more to Piola if you can.

I rate rockfax alot.

In reply to zimpara:

F*ck me, Zimpara, if you can't follow a combination of topos, lines on photographs and lines of BOLTS in a guidebook written in English, you'd be better off going home.