UKC

After a year or so of committing to climbing (indoors) 3 or 4 times a week, I'm now wondering if it's worth hiring the services of a coach.

I'm struggling to find the time to get outdoors and with winter coming, it seems like the right time to knuckle down and get strong.

My objective is to boost my onsight grade from 7a+ to hopefully 7b+, and ideally, I'd like to work towards climbing 8a one day. Hopefully, in the background of all this, I'll be able to up my trad grade as well. I would love to get up to English tech grade 6b - currently happy at about 5c.

So ..... any advocates of coaches out there?

Any recommendations of amazing coaches around the Manchester area?

Any naysayers who think coaches are a waste of money?

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

At that sort of grade, if you have been at a plateau for a while, then i would say coaching is a great thing to try.

Like any sport, different coaches have different styles, strengths and weaknesses. Its best to call all the climbing walls you would be happy to travel to and have a chat with the coaches available. So Manchester, maybe Peak based too?

You can always do it as a one off as a session to solely help identify weakness, then put some of your own time in researching how to improve on the points raised.

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:


If you're sure what your weakness is, maybe you'd be best saving your money? Although there are many ways to get stronger. I used to be terrible at locking off, so worked on strengthening my shoulders.

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:


Yep Leo. There's a stunning 1930s Art Deco Bedford in the bus & coach museum near Salford.
As for improvement on rock; perhaps consider getting off the plastic and pushing yourself on the real stuff. Shouldn't take long and you'll get more out of upping your grade 'out in the real world' than crushing the latest green route indoors. You really will!
I wish you well but if that's all too hard perrhaps contact Mark 'Zippy' Pretty.
Aim high,
AP.

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

Tom Randall and Ollie Tor at Lattice will sort you out. I started with a training plan from Tom a year and a half ago, and since starting I've gone from E4/7c/F7A to E7/8a/F7C and currently pushing for 8a onsight. I'm not currently on a training plan from Lattice but plan to have one again in the future.

It's a very logical systematic style of training based on data from hundreds of climbers, and is really adaptable to different settings and lifestyles. And it's pretty cheap.

In reply to MischaHY:

Humble brag.

In reply to Morriss:

Or, you know, proof that training plans can work?

In reply to Dandan:


I think everybody knows they 'can' work, the thing I'd be interested to know is whether a getting a coach and having a custom plan is much better than just using the information off the Internet. I think that would be hard to prove. And obviously it will vary depending on the individual climber and coach.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


The obvious thing that you'd hope to get from a coach is a realistic, unbiased assessment of what your strengths and weaknesses are. I'd guess that a lot of people are very very bad at doing this for themselves, and it seems like it ought to make a big difference compared to putting a load of time and effort into the wrong thing...

In reply to MischaHY:


You have a strange definition of cheap. It's the most expensive coaching that I've come across. For an evaluation and the minimum plan of six months is pushing towards £400.

Ive heard good things about it, and I'm sure it achieves results but at the moment I couldn't justify spending that much money on coaching

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

For someone like me, getting a plan would work better because:

- There is a LOT of information on the internet. I'll try to read it all and will be constantly changing what I am doing to the new fad that I read about the night before
- If I've paid money for something, I'm more likely to do it

In reply to galpinos:


You would also be more likely to say it was beneficial and put a gloss on the results. People tend to like to reassure themselves that they have not wasted money (that album isn't rubbish... it's just a grower!), which makes assessing its worth compared to just going climbing / making a plan using information on the web tricky.

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:

True. For me, the fact I'd have structure would mean I would probably fit more into my pretty busy schedule (two young children) and it might not be the "plan content" but just having any plan that made the difference.

If I was onsighting 8a though, I doubt I'd care.

In reply to galpinos:

The best way to add a few grades to your on-sight limit is to take a holiday somewhere with softly graded long enduro-routes. My on-sight limit in the UK is 7b, it repeatedly went to 7c+ in Chullila.

In reply to Dandan:

I think it goes without saying that a training plan can work. Pretty obvious really. Recommending a coach and saying they've really helped me and my grades have shot up etc would surely do the job.

To me it genuinely seemed like a bit of bragging.

In reply to MischaHY:

Also like others have said your progress doesn't seem to me like anything that couldn't have been achieved by going out climbing and trying hard.

At the risk of looking like a stalker your logbook suggests you climbed your hardest sport route in 2013 and haven't exceeded this since, and even though you seem to have worked harder boulders you don't seem to finish them. Unless of course you haven't updated your logbook.

On the lattice front i have heard very good things by a really wide range of climbers.

In reply to Morriss:

Yeah MischaHY when you gonna stop fondling plastic and do some proper outdoor OS'ing - you know - the stuff that really counts?

To the OP:

I've done both - used information from the web and fellow climbers, and once I hit a plateaux, paid for a training plan.

Pre-coaching I had got up to RP'ing f8a+ and 7C, but hadn't made any improvements for several years. After sticking with the training plans for several winters, f8b/+ and 8A. My on-sight grade soared from 7b+ to 8a too. (Trad went the other way, though not through lack of physical ability).

Go into any coaching/training plan with an open mind - and a commitment to see it through. I don't have the time to devote to a similar training plan now, but have applied lots of what i learnt from coaching to still get up f8a+ and 7C+ (and hopefully f8b+ again before Longridge gets perma wet for the winter)

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

How are you avoiding 6b tech if you flash 7a+?

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

I think it takes a fair bit of effort and brains to create your own training plan from the information freely available on the internet for several reasons.
Firstly, there is so much info out there now, that cherry picking all the bits that seem effective and throwing them together just won't work, it would be liking putting all your favourite foods in a bowl and expecting to get a delicious pie, when what you get is chorizo and ice-cream soup.
There are many different methods available to improve your climbing and most are equally valid but they have to be used in the right quantities and without throwing in some part of another method that might work on it's own but is counter-productive when combined. Most people don't have the time, patience or lack of bias to experiment with various methods and objectively work out what works for them.
Secondly, you have no independent opinion to tell you what you *should* be training, very few people will honestly and correctly pick out their own shortcomings and put in the time to develop them. So many people start some kind of training regime and will say something along the lines of "time to get strong!" when I'd imagine a large proportion of those people should really be saying "time to eat well and develop my footwork" or similar.
Thirdly, there is less motivation in a home-made plan, I personally have trouble convincing myself that I'm clever enough to be doing the right thing, there's always the thought in the back of my mind that I'm probably not doing it quite right so I don't feel encouraged to really push on. Whether it's the reassurance that a paid plan is tried and tested, the urge to get value for money, or the motivation from hoping to impress a coach that you respect, I think a paid plan brings with it a bucket load of motivation.

Coaching can seem expensive but it's not something you need to pay for week in, week out for eternity, I would encourage a new climber to have a few movement and technique sessions, then only once they have reached a plateau from years of mostly unstructured climbing, I'd suggest a coach if they really wanted to push their limits.
Also the expense is relative, what other sport can you pay a few hundred pounds for a personalised training plan and one-to-one sessions from world-class athletes? We are lucky that our sport is relatively small-time and your average punter can get tips from the pros without breaking the bank. Imagine trying to get a 2 hour football session with a member of the England squad or golfing tips from that Mcilroy fella.

In reply to Morriss:

Dude, I've not met you, but when I met that mischa kid (albeit briefly) he didn't come across as a dick. I think this is a case of things coming across different in type.

Back on topic: Leo mate, if you've got the funds I'd go for it. When we climbed together a few years back you seemed pretty on it in terms of the psychological stuff, so you probably want a coach who looks more at physical stuff. Could be technique, could be strength, could be fitness. Ask your current partners what they think your strengths and weaknesses are, have a think yourself, and try to find someone who has a good reputation in that area? You might also want to look at things like nutrition, sleep/recovery and ask yourself if any of that's relevant too. Probably not in your case, but if your routines been disrupted could be having an effect on your climbing.

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:

That's not improving your grade, that's ticking soft routes! It's not a "magic grade" I aspire to, but specific routes. If I had the time, I'd pay for a training plan to achieve these goals.

In reply to Ramblin dave:


That does assume you're doing the wrong thing. It would be interesting to know how much people perception of their weaknesses matches reality.

But I'd guess it generally is better, but how much will depend on lots of factors. And whether it's good value is a personal judgement. I quite like the Internet approach, and it saves me money. When I reflect, if I do up my grade a bit, I'll still be pretty much in the same boat anyway, i.e. wanting to climb a bit harder, and better. I'm not going to run out of routes any time soon.

In reply to galpinos:



Sounds like it would help you.

I'm fairly self motivated and I always have a bit of a plan, but it would likely help me too. I hurt my shoulder last winter and had 6 weeks of easy climbing, so I worked on technique. It really helped, but I can't seem to discipline myself enough to put lots of time into technique when I'm not injured. I suspect that's quite common.

In reply to Ally Smith:


But I wonder if the fact you sought coaching could indicate you were more keen to improve, so more willing to put in the work? These things are hard to assess based on small samples, and we're not accounting for bias that is likely present in trying a assess these things for yourself.

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

Just go old school and get fit on the walk in. Maybe not to much help for Stanage mind.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


8a+ and 7C implies a certain amount of work put in already, surely. It seems if you've plateaued at that level that you've probably put a reasonable amount into getting there and maintaining there - is it likely to be "more" or "smarter" that pushes you on from there. .

In reply to AJM:


Getting anywhere implies effort. It's about how much surely?


I think the discussion is about coaching and the benefits, not whether effort and thought are required, which is fairly obvious.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Your post implies that the reason he improved could be that he was motivated and hence willing to work harder - my point is that the starting level implies a lot of hard work already and that the evidence leans towards it being the smarter work identified by the coach which broke through the plateau not just the application of more effort. Judging by your reply, perhaps I should have been clearer.

In reply to AJM:


I thought I used the word 'more', but if I didn't, I meant to. More effort, focus and thought. That doesn't mean a lot of effort wasn't applied anyway.


But neither of us know the level of effort before or after the coach, or the level of effort and progression that would have occurred without the coach.

In reply to Morriss:

TL/DR: Not everyone is an arsehole.

I included my personal progression due to the fact that I know Leo well but haven't climbed with him for a while, and therefore felt it would give him a good idea of my progression based on where I've come from (that he had seen first hand, being one of the people who pushed me in my climbing in the beginning) and where I am now. I considered sending this message over Facebook but thought it would be better to put it out there so that a) others might have help making their decisions over coaching and b) to give a shout out to Lattice for teaching me how to train and helping me progress in my climbing, something that has brought me large amounts of satisfaction, self confidence and happiness.

I find it genuinely depressing that we are unable to have these conversations without bitterness emerging. In any other sporting circle the talk of coaching and personal progression would be a common and welcomed topic.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I think the most important thing for me was the structure. It allowed me to channel my enthusiasm into a set series of exercises that quickly yielded results.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Eh. Last time I had six months from Tom it cost me in the region of £260 including assessment. For half a year of personalised training plans, advice and encouraging motivation backed up by some serious data, this didn't seem unreasonable.

Also, I now know how to train. This is a massive benefit for me as it means I can work on my progression quite happily on my own now, and if/when I hit a stumbling block I know that I can go back for further advice.

In reply to MischaHY:


I have considered just writing a plan, but not sure I'd stick to it. Would be interesting to see.

In reply to galpinos:


Like I said, get on the 30 degree board at the Depot and stick to it. That'll be 50p, I've saved you time and I'm cheap!

In reply to MischaHY:


Well said. There does seem to be a reluctance to talk about grades, but it's all useful information. Kind of seems odd to talk about coaching and progression without bringing them up anyway.

In reply to Tyler:


I would second that. Perfect training for Malham.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


It is, I think the issue is that Mishca should have been clearer that he was talking about indoor grades and not outdoor. You might say that's not relevant but I think it is as he is obviously a keen outdoor climber with a focus on getting up hard routes outdoors yet his outdoor achievements are some way behind what he does indoors/is capable so something else to be factored in when considering a training plan/recommendation.

In reply to Tyler:

Ha! I was actually thinking that on Monday as I was playing on the new red circuit.

In reply to Tyler:


Point taken. My indoor track record is currently much better than outdoor, but then the amount of time I spend/have spent indoor way exceeds that of outside - and when I have gone outside, I've focused more on trad.

I'm off to the Frankenjura next week though!

In reply to Tyler:


Given that indoors is way harder, I'm even more impressed.

In reply to MischaHY:

You need to spend more time on sport routes outdoors, that'll be 50p from you as well.

In reply to Tyler:

I've enrolled a partner in crime for some sessions on the 30. If I don't flash 8a next year I'll be up the M66 to hunt you down......

In reply to Leo Woodfelder:

If you can onsight 7a+ then english 6b should already be more than possible for you. Plenty of 7a+'s have crux moves of 6b.

In terms of coaching I think you'd be much wiser to invest in a book or two on climbing and learn from that. If your technique is OK then a lot of climbing improvement is about getting stronger. A coach can't make you stronger, it just takes a lot of time training in an intelligent way over time, week in, week out.. I would recommend Dave Macleod's book 9 out of 10 climbers. Far less than even a single coaching session and if you follow what it says it'll stand you through many years of improvement. Gimme Kraft is also a good start for exercises (though you can find a lot on Youtube - most stuff on calisthenics is pretty applicable to climbing).

In reply to MischaHY:

Apologies if my comments depressed you. Didn't think they would cause that much offence.

Didn't grasp the personal connection obviously. It just came across as showboating to me.

Listing indoor grades with trad grades and the boulders in font grades made it sound like outdoors which is why i then looked at your logbook and jumped to conclusions.

Hope this isn't too long to read.

In reply to Morriss:

So you thought that, naturally, the best response to this assumption was to steer the thread off topic with self-inflated cynicism to further waste the time of people who are actually interested in the topic at hand.

Top job.