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As it appears that the received 'wisdom' is that anyone that supported leaving the EU is stupid or a racist ( of both) does the apparently substantiated reports that the Queen supports Brexit mean that she too is intellectually inferior , or possibly a racist as other Brexiters are being accused?
(Or is she just confident in this countries ability to survive outside the EU, as it did for a large part of her reign ?)
( and presumably Mrs May is aware of the Queens views)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/26/queen-did-back-brexit-bbc-sugges...
(Or is she just confident in this countries ability to survive outside the EU, as it did for a large part of her reign ?)
( and presumably Mrs May is aware of the Queens views)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/26/queen-did-back-brexit-bbc-sugges...
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In reply to Jim C:
I suspect that the Queen has a much more nuanced and balanced view than the revolting Torygraph suggests. I.e. that she's quite capable of seeing the pros and cons, and is above all concerned about the future unity of the United Kingdom and with representing all her people, Leave or Remain. She has clearly made odd comments about it, to this person and that person on different occasions, and foolish shit-stirrers have tried to extrapolate far more than is justified. Her Christmas broadcast was of course 100 per cent neutral and gave no hint of her private position on the issue. She didn't refer to the referendum and the future of Brexit in any way, even very indirectly. I think the Telegraph is being totally irresponsible in stirring up this partisan story, when she cannot answer back.
P.S. Most of the younger members of the Royal Family have been less discreet, and have hinted quite clearly that they are Remainers.
I suspect that the Queen has a much more nuanced and balanced view than the revolting Torygraph suggests. I.e. that she's quite capable of seeing the pros and cons, and is above all concerned about the future unity of the United Kingdom and with representing all her people, Leave or Remain. She has clearly made odd comments about it, to this person and that person on different occasions, and foolish shit-stirrers have tried to extrapolate far more than is justified. Her Christmas broadcast was of course 100 per cent neutral and gave no hint of her private position on the issue. She didn't refer to the referendum and the future of Brexit in any way, even very indirectly. I think the Telegraph is being totally irresponsible in stirring up this partisan story, when she cannot answer back.
P.S. Most of the younger members of the Royal Family have been less discreet, and have hinted quite clearly that they are Remainers.
Post edited at 13:25
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In reply to Jim C:
Whatever happens I'm sure she'll be fine. Is she racist ? I'm not sure, but I would say her husband definitely is.
Whatever happens I'm sure she'll be fine. Is she racist ? I'm not sure, but I would say her husband definitely is.
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In reply to Jim C:
She's playing a long game, whereby the EU fragments and there's a new alignment of the UK with Portugal, Bulgaria and Belgium, all under the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
The itinerant Hanoverians we somehow have as our monarchs are the original European unifiers...
She's playing a long game, whereby the EU fragments and there's a new alignment of the UK with Portugal, Bulgaria and Belgium, all under the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
The itinerant Hanoverians we somehow have as our monarchs are the original European unifiers...
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In reply to Wsdconst:
He's a product of his generation and I suspect his attitude towards "Johnny foreigner" is more a reflection of his upbringing rather than malice. He's not unusual for a man of his age. Times and attitudes have changed.
> I would say her husband definitely is.
He's a product of his generation and I suspect his attitude towards "Johnny foreigner" is more a reflection of his upbringing rather than malice. He's not unusual for a man of his age. Times and attitudes have changed.
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In reply to davidbeynon:
youtube.com/watch?v=QR3fD5YyN3g&
["when you play the game of thrones you win or you die..."
youtube.com/watch?v=QR3fD5YyN3g&
["when you play the game of thrones you win or you die..."
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In reply to Jim C:
Is that your belief? Or are you saying that's what you think people think about you? I'm not sure why you think that is received wisdom.
> As it appears that the received 'wisdom' is that anyone that supported leaving the EU is stupid or a racist ( of both)
Is that your belief? Or are you saying that's what you think people think about you? I'm not sure why you think that is received wisdom.
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In reply to TobyA:
Lazy and hackneyed tactic to discredit anyone who disagrees with you, especially if you don't have a back-up argument.
> Is that your belief? Or are you saying that's what you think people think about you? I'm not sure why you think that is received wisdom.
Lazy and hackneyed tactic to discredit anyone who disagrees with you, especially if you don't have a back-up argument.
Post edited at 16:21
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In reply to Trangia:
I suspect he also likes to play to character. All he does is make politically incorrect jokes from time to time. He's hardly Adolf Hitler.
> He's a product of his generation and I suspect his attitude towards "Johnny foreigner" is more a reflection of his upbringing rather than malice. He's not unusual for a man of his age. Times and attitudes have changed.
I suspect he also likes to play to character. All he does is make politically incorrect jokes from time to time. He's hardly Adolf Hitler.
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In reply to Jim C:
1) The reports that she supported Brexit haven't been substantiated. All that has happened is that Laura Kunsberg has revealed that she heard the story long before it broke. She didn't run it but it couldn't be verified - it was a single source (possibly Gove, so a pretty biased one). When the Mail or Express broke the story they had qualms about the fact it was still coming from a single source.
2) The queen merely asked 'why can't we just leave? '. A question rather than an opinion, but if she had no inkling of the complications and consequences of leaving she doesn't have the grasp of current affairs she is renowned for.
3) has anyone sane ever said that all Brexit voters were stupid and racist ? Or even that all were either stupid or racist ? Certainly many would be, and some aspects of the campaign appealed to stupidly (the £350m claim) or racism (Farage and his Breaking point poster), but most of us know the reasons Brexit won were far more nuanced than that.
1) The reports that she supported Brexit haven't been substantiated. All that has happened is that Laura Kunsberg has revealed that she heard the story long before it broke. She didn't run it but it couldn't be verified - it was a single source (possibly Gove, so a pretty biased one). When the Mail or Express broke the story they had qualms about the fact it was still coming from a single source.
2) The queen merely asked 'why can't we just leave? '. A question rather than an opinion, but if she had no inkling of the complications and consequences of leaving she doesn't have the grasp of current affairs she is renowned for.
3) has anyone sane ever said that all Brexit voters were stupid and racist ? Or even that all were either stupid or racist ? Certainly many would be, and some aspects of the campaign appealed to stupidly (the £350m claim) or racism (Farage and his Breaking point poster), but most of us know the reasons Brexit won were far more nuanced than that.
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In reply to poppydog:
I really hope you're not rejecting the British Constitution, and the importance of having a non-political figurehead who represents all the people.
> " . . . all her people . . ."
> Really? I reject her representing me.
I really hope you're not rejecting the British Constitution, and the importance of having a non-political figurehead who represents all the people.
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In reply to Jim C:
She could be neither, either or both. It doesn't matter, her intellect and opinions are irrelevant.
> As it appears that the received 'wisdom' is that anyone that supported leaving the EU is stupid or a racist ( of both) does the apparently substantiated reports that the Queen supports Brexit mean that she too is intellectually inferior , or possibly a racist as other Brexiters are being accused?
She could be neither, either or both. It doesn't matter, her intellect and opinions are irrelevant.
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In reply to Mike Stretford:
>her intellect and opinions are irrelevant.
Not according to the BBC nor the DM readers knocking themselves out with excitement at the news.
>'why can't we just leave?'
Finger on the pulse there Maam. How unexpected.
F
>her intellect and opinions are irrelevant.
Not according to the BBC nor the DM readers knocking themselves out with excitement at the news.
>'why can't we just leave?'
Finger on the pulse there Maam. How unexpected.
F
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
>I really hope you're not rejecting the British Constitution, and the importance of having a non-political figurehead who >represents all the people.
What bits of the constitution Gordon? The bits not written down? The bits that refer to me as a subject of the crown?
>and the importance of having a non-political figurehead who represents all the people.
How so? That's absurd. Sure I know this is how its supposed to be when they teach you in primary school, but actually she represents the 1%, no conjecture.
D
>I really hope you're not rejecting the British Constitution, and the importance of having a non-political figurehead who >represents all the people.
What bits of the constitution Gordon? The bits not written down? The bits that refer to me as a subject of the crown?
>and the importance of having a non-political figurehead who represents all the people.
How so? That's absurd. Sure I know this is how its supposed to be when they teach you in primary school, but actually she represents the 1%, no conjecture.
D
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In reply to Trangia:
I'd agree, in fact I'd imagine he feels superior to just about everyone, except his wife.
> He's a product of his generation and I suspect his attitude towards "Johnny foreigner" is more a reflection of his upbringing rather than malice. He's not unusual for a man of his age. Times and attitudes have changed.
I'd agree, in fact I'd imagine he feels superior to just about everyone, except his wife.
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In reply to Jim C:
If you went into an old folks home, turned off the daytime TV and went up to a 90 year old granny and asked for their views on politics would you be at all surprised if they sounded like something from the 1950s?
So is the queen miraculously protected from normal human aging by her royal blood?
If you went into an old folks home, turned off the daytime TV and went up to a 90 year old granny and asked for their views on politics would you be at all surprised if they sounded like something from the 1950s?
So is the queen miraculously protected from normal human aging by her royal blood?
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In reply to Removed User:
Lazy and hackneyed tactic to discredit anyone who disagrees with you, especially if you don't have a back-up argument.
As lazy and hackneyed as to start a thread with a ridiculous straw man argunent about how terribly persecuted you all are by the evil snobs who think you are stupid and racist?
Personally I know plenty of people who voted leave who are neither, but almost every one I see on the internet seems willing and able to play down to the stereotype.
Lazy and hackneyed tactic to discredit anyone who disagrees with you, especially if you don't have a back-up argument.
As lazy and hackneyed as to start a thread with a ridiculous straw man argunent about how terribly persecuted you all are by the evil snobs who think you are stupid and racist?
Personally I know plenty of people who voted leave who are neither, but almost every one I see on the internet seems willing and able to play down to the stereotype.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
"..He's hardly Adolf Hitler."
No he isn't. He is far more powerful than any of you can imagine. He is.....a god.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Philip_Movement
"..He's hardly Adolf Hitler."
No he isn't. He is far more powerful than any of you can imagine. He is.....a god.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Philip_Movement
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In reply to davidbeynon:
Spot on. Just read any youtube comments related to the referendum result.
> Personally I know plenty of people who voted leave who are neither, but almost every one I see on the internet seems willing and able to play down to the stereotype.
Spot on. Just read any youtube comments related to the referendum result.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Well I reject the British Constitution and she certainly does not represent me.
> I really hope you're not rejecting the British Constitution, and the importance of having a non-political figurehead who represents all the people.
Well I reject the British Constitution and she certainly does not represent me.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Well, kinda, in that we don't have an actual written constitution aside from the statutes and common laws. And I'm not sure why a non-political figurehead would have any importance anyway. I'd support a written constitution and an elected head of state.
> I really hope you're not rejecting the British Constitution, and the importance of having a non-political figurehead who represents all the people.
Well, kinda, in that we don't have an actual written constitution aside from the statutes and common laws. And I'm not sure why a non-political figurehead would have any importance anyway. I'd support a written constitution and an elected head of state.
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In reply to Trangia:
i don't know if the queen is racist, but didn't the royal family have a thing for Nazi's at some stage before WW2?
> He's a product of his generation and I suspect his attitude towards "Johnny foreigner" is more a reflection of his upbringing rather than malice. He's not unusual for a man of his age. Times and attitudes have changed.
i don't know if the queen is racist, but didn't the royal family have a thing for Nazi's at some stage before WW2?
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In reply to poppydog:
For the record, I'd also support a written constitution, but never an elected head of state (because they can never completely shed their political affiliations). I like the idea of an apolitical figurehead with no actual political power. Primarily used as a symbol of the state at state occasions. Really, of course, the Queen could be a robot and perform the same functions, though people understandably warm to a fundamentally 'nice', unpretentious human being.
Better add a smiley to remind people of the Christmas holiday spirit ...
> Well, kinda, in that we don't have an actual written constitution aside from the statutes and common laws. And I'm not sure why a non-political figurehead would have any importance anyway. I'd support a written constitution and an elected head of state.
For the record, I'd also support a written constitution, but never an elected head of state (because they can never completely shed their political affiliations). I like the idea of an apolitical figurehead with no actual political power. Primarily used as a symbol of the state at state occasions. Really, of course, the Queen could be a robot and perform the same functions, though people understandably warm to a fundamentally 'nice', unpretentious human being.
Better add a smiley to remind people of the Christmas holiday spirit ...
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In reply to davidbeynon:
That was my point.
I know two. Really, just two. One conforms to stereotype so much he is almost satire come to life (Tory, Victorian views about everything such as women ought to have long hair, not smoke, swear or drink pints, homophobic and blames everything on the Romanians though this makes a change from the French, Jimmy Savile apologist, in his mid 50s and never been abroad). The other is a friend who voted Leave because of Ttip and for no other reason.
If you find that "almost everyone on the internet seems willing and able to play down to the stereotype" then that's likely because that's what you are looking for.
My highly scientific sample of two would suggest that only 50% are stuck in the 19th Century
> As lazy and hackneyed as to start a thread with a ridiculous straw man argunent about how terribly persecuted you all are by the evil snobs who think you are stupid and racist?
That was my point.
> Personally I know plenty of people who voted leave who are neither, but almost every one I see on the internet seems willing and able to play down to the stereotype.
I know two. Really, just two. One conforms to stereotype so much he is almost satire come to life (Tory, Victorian views about everything such as women ought to have long hair, not smoke, swear or drink pints, homophobic and blames everything on the Romanians though this makes a change from the French, Jimmy Savile apologist, in his mid 50s and never been abroad). The other is a friend who voted Leave because of Ttip and for no other reason.
If you find that "almost everyone on the internet seems willing and able to play down to the stereotype" then that's likely because that's what you are looking for.
My highly scientific sample of two would suggest that only 50% are stuck in the 19th Century
Post edited at 11:46
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In reply to Dauphin:
Yup, how shocking that a 90 year old conservative nationalist would agree with DM and Telegraph readers.
> >'why can't we just leave?'
> Finger on the pulse there Maam. How unexpected.
Yup, how shocking that a 90 year old conservative nationalist would agree with DM and Telegraph readers.
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In reply to jondo:
Yes, Edward did when he was Prince of Wales. He was taken in by Hitler's "charm" during a visit to Germany in the 1930s when Hitler was trying to curry favour with the British. I don't think the Queen's father George was though.
> i don't know if the queen is racist, but didn't the royal family have a thing for Nazi's at some stage before WW2?
Yes, Edward did when he was Prince of Wales. He was taken in by Hitler's "charm" during a visit to Germany in the 1930s when Hitler was trying to curry favour with the British. I don't think the Queen's father George was though.
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In reply to Trangia:
Well...he's a Greek racist
> He's a product of his generation and I suspect his attitude towards "Johnny foreigner" is more a reflection of his upbringing rather than malice. He's not unusual for a man of his age. Times and attitudes have changed.
Well...he's a Greek racist
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In reply to jondo:
Is this what you were thinking about ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Edward,_Duke_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Got...
Or maybe this is what you worth reminded of
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/18/royal-family-archives-queen...
All pretty well documented in film and print.
> i don't know if the queen is racist, but didn't the royal family have a thing for Nazi's at some stage before WW2?
Is this what you were thinking about ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Edward,_Duke_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Got...
Or maybe this is what you worth reminded of
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/18/royal-family-archives-queen...
All pretty well documented in film and print.
Post edited at 23:30
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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
As it happens I'm a regular visitor to an old folks home.
I make them a lovely cup of tea and they tell me their views all sorts of of things, I have yet to have one who did not love the Royal family, so they must be doing something right
> If you went into an old folks home, turned off the daytime TV and went up to a 90 year old granny and asked for their views on politics would you be at all surprised if they sounded like something from the 1950s?
As it happens I'm a regular visitor to an old folks home.
I make them a lovely cup of tea and they tell me their views all sorts of of things, I have yet to have one who did not love the Royal family, so they must be doing something right
Post edited at 23:35
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
3) has anyone sane ever said that all Brexit voters were stupid and racist ?
I could probably start my own UKC list, but you would have to decide if they were sane or not, I could not possibly comment, I'm not qualified to
3) has anyone sane ever said that all Brexit voters were stupid and racist ?
I could probably start my own UKC list, but you would have to decide if they were sane or not, I could not possibly comment, I'm not qualified to
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In reply to Postmanpat:
I think you are right on that, but I was reading his Wiki and this jumped out at me.
"In 1939, aged 18. .... he began corresponding with the 13-year-old Princess Elizabeth"
Nowadays that would be called 'grooming'
> I suspect he also likes to play to character. All he does is make politically incorrect jokes from time to time. He's hardly Adolf Hitler.
I think you are right on that, but I was reading his Wiki and this jumped out at me.
"In 1939, aged 18. .... he began corresponding with the 13-year-old Princess Elizabeth"
Nowadays that would be called 'grooming'
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In reply to Jim C:
Except that's clearly not the received wisdom. It's just a thing that some brexiteers like to say to make themselves or people they're trying to persuade feel like everyone on the otherside is a PC-liberal-elitist who's looking down on them from on high.
> As it appears that the received 'wisdom' is that anyone that supported leaving the EU is stupid or a racist
Except that's clearly not the received wisdom. It's just a thing that some brexiteers like to say to make themselves or people they're trying to persuade feel like everyone on the otherside is a PC-liberal-elitist who's looking down on them from on high.
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In reply to sebastian dangerfield:
But a study by'experts' says you are wrong about that.
http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/satire/study-reveals-mainly-stupid-people-...
Ironically, the 'clever people' were warned ( by the really clever people) before the vote, that calling potential Brexiteers stupid would backfire, and so it transpired.
> Except that's clearly not the received wisdom.
But a study by'experts' says you are wrong about that.
http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/satire/study-reveals-mainly-stupid-people-...
Ironically, the 'clever people' were warned ( by the really clever people) before the vote, that calling potential Brexiteers stupid would backfire, and so it transpired.
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In reply to Jim C:
Now look again at the link you posted. Spot the second word on it. Seen it yet? It says "satire" for the section that article comes from.
Perfect example that though not all of them conform to the stereotype, a good proportion and those more vocal seem to do
Now look again at the link you posted. Spot the second word on it. Seen it yet? It says "satire" for the section that article comes from.
Perfect example that though not all of them conform to the stereotype, a good proportion and those more vocal seem to do
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In reply to Jim C:
No one listens to 'experts' anymore, it's all post-truth now, if enough people believe it, then it must be true.
No one listens to 'experts' anymore, it's all post-truth now, if enough people believe it, then it must be true.
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In reply to Mr Lopez:
That's a hilarious article. Unfortunately, while a very obvious spoof, it isn't all that less accurate than many of the 'genuine' news stories printed at the time that were masquerading as factual. On both sides, no doubt, but it's clear which team's lies ended up having the most sway.
> Now look again at the link you posted. Spot the second word on it. Seen it yet? It says "satire" for the section that article comes from.
> Perfect example that though not all of them conform to the stereotype, a good proportion and those more vocal seem to do
That's a hilarious article. Unfortunately, while a very obvious spoof, it isn't all that less accurate than many of the 'genuine' news stories printed at the time that were masquerading as factual. On both sides, no doubt, but it's clear which team's lies ended up having the most sway.
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In reply to Jim C:
Even the satire only says 'mainly'!
> But a study by'experts' says you are wrong about that.
Even the satire only says 'mainly'!
In reply to Trangia:
They are mostly cut from the same imperial cloth. Experts at rebranding themselves to fit in amongst a population that would have them swinging from the street lamps along the mall if they knew the truth. George was an leader in the field when faced with certain difficult political realities such as a the first labour government. When Liz is glad handing, smiling and hobnobbing with tyrants its because its comes easy.
D
> Yes, Edward did when he was Prince of Wales. He was taken in by Hitler's "charm" during a visit to Germany in the >1930s when Hitler was trying to curry favour with the British. I don't think the Queen's father George was though.
They are mostly cut from the same imperial cloth. Experts at rebranding themselves to fit in amongst a population that would have them swinging from the street lamps along the mall if they knew the truth. George was an leader in the field when faced with certain difficult political realities such as a the first labour government. When Liz is glad handing, smiling and hobnobbing with tyrants its because its comes easy.
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In reply to Dauphin:
In the case of your ancestors, Monsieur, was it not Madame La Guillotine who did the deed?
> amongst a population that would have them swinging from the street lamps along the mall if they knew the truth.
In the case of your ancestors, Monsieur, was it not Madame La Guillotine who did the deed?
Post edited at 14:53
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In reply to Trangia:
Good at history.
My ancestors were union leaders, social policy architects and communist agitators.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/1970s-manitoba-poverty-experiment-ca...
D
Good at history.
My ancestors were union leaders, social policy architects and communist agitators.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/1970s-manitoba-poverty-experiment-ca...
D
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In reply to Jim C:
During the referendum campaign I was one of the more vociferous Remainers on this forum, but I would never go that far.
However, it is almost certainly true that a proportion (hopefully small) of the UK population could be classified as racist, and of that proportion a substantial majority, if they voted at all, voted Leave. Much worse, some of these would have interpreted the outcome as giving respectability to their racist views.
As far as "stupid" is concerned, it depends how you define "stupid". It's certainly true that opinion polls before the referendum concluded that among graduates the population split around 70/30 for remain, while among non-graduates the proportion was reversed, but these were the same pollsters who got the actual result badly wrong.
On both these counts there must be a lot of people who are neither stupid nor racist who voted Leave. I believe they were misled and wrong. But that's not the same thing.
Martin
> As it appears that the received 'wisdom' is that anyone that supported leaving the EU is stupid or a racist ( or both).
During the referendum campaign I was one of the more vociferous Remainers on this forum, but I would never go that far.
However, it is almost certainly true that a proportion (hopefully small) of the UK population could be classified as racist, and of that proportion a substantial majority, if they voted at all, voted Leave. Much worse, some of these would have interpreted the outcome as giving respectability to their racist views.
As far as "stupid" is concerned, it depends how you define "stupid". It's certainly true that opinion polls before the referendum concluded that among graduates the population split around 70/30 for remain, while among non-graduates the proportion was reversed, but these were the same pollsters who got the actual result badly wrong.
On both these counts there must be a lot of people who are neither stupid nor racist who voted Leave. I believe they were misled and wrong. But that's not the same thing.
Martin
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