UKC

So I can climb slabs pretty well but as soon as I pull on anything approaching vertical I meltdown physically and mentally.

When contemplating a commiting sequence on a steep lead, what stops me is the mental tortue of not knowing if I will be able to hold on long enough to get some gear in, or even last long enought to power through to the next good rest.

I don't parlicularly enjoy indoor climbing, but is it nessesary to bite to bullet and get down to the overcrowded, expensive, neck-pain-inducing wall of plastic, or is there an alternative that has worked for you?

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

What sort of grades are we talking about? There is no doubt in my mind that climbing indoors greatly improves strength and stamina. Just climbing slab climbs can also get a bit tedious IMO.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:
I might be able to onsight something like E2 5c on slate and then the next week not get up a vertical VS 4c on grit.

Welsh slate will never get tedious But it would be nice to climb well on limestone, grit etc.

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

Hey pal,

I've never seen you climb, so I just wanna say that the following are guesses only.

Steep climbing, both indoors and out requires completely different technique toolbox than slabs. Drop knees, flags and outside edging (LOTS of this) are the most indispensable techniques in the arsenal of an overhanging climber.

Excellent starting point: youtube.com/watch?v=UZlGKEs31Cc& look at ALL the similar videos

People say that slabs require a lot of technique, I agree, however I find when steep climbing is truly at your limit, technique to be crucial, as soon as you step on the wall your power is decreasing and you need to be precise and efficient in every moment, when it is truly hard.

I imagine that if you shy away from overhangs you might be a bit apprehensive about getting on them or taking safe falls (on bolts, or on bomber backep up gear with a good belayer). Falling indoors and trying challenging things will eventually make you more comfortable dancing on roofs.

Breathing and moving at a good pace is also crucial on roofs...speeding up through the tricky bits and then getting something back at the resting jug that follows.

Finally, a good way to look at indoor walls is just as training ground that will enable you to do the routes that you truly want to do. Doing lots of steep leads indoor can certainly not hurt you when you're pressed with an overhang outdoors.

Good luck and enjoy!

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

As well as the above.
On steeper ground consevation of energy and knowing how and when to rest are essential.
On slabs resting before a crux or when tired is easier (though it can still be tiring on the calves) but on steeper ground your strength is diminishing each moment you are there. So you need to find ways to conserve that energy.
On the rock make good use of jams and large holds, corners etc. they will be less tiring than crips (if you have the option). Dead hangs and taking the weight onto your legs where possible can help. A straight arm uses less energy than a bent arm.
At the wall I practice on steep stuff, trying to climb slowly and carefully, practicing conserving my energy.

On roofs the biggest thing for me is getting over the lip as you make that transition from the horizontal to the vertical. Some boulder walls my offer practice at this

In reply to Mike Hewitt: Do lots of sport, and get your core strong. Leanr to twist into the moves. Basically, sport climbing will teach you all you need to know, in order to get better at trad.

In reply to Mike Hewitt:


Just about everything has been covered - but I didn't see anyone say this yet: route-reading! If you spend the time route-reading, you will be so much quicker during the execution that your arms won't have time to get tired. This goes hand in hand with practicing at the wall. On a slab, you can route-read en-route, so it's fine to just get on it with only a vague idea of where to head - but on a steeper route, you won't have time to plan it all on the way. This has to be done from the ground as much as possible (including gear placements).
The way you describe being unable to know if you can power through or get gear in implies that your understanding/visualization of your own capabilities can be improved upon a lot. If you're good at route-reading, and you get a "good read" (i.e. there's nothing on the route that confuses you, which normally there won't be) - you won't have much doubt that you can do the moves and get gear in.
So in short - try spending time on every session focusing on route-reading. This is a skill that can always improve.
Sorry if that's telling you to suck eggs.

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

I used to be really bad at overhang routes compared to slab, I mostly found that trying the routes you are bad at makes you better at them! Personally I found the overhung bouldering circuits at the local climbing wall really useful, just to focus on conserving energy and good footwork in a safe environment.

(disclaimer I don't climb any harder than VS trad overhung stuff either, but I can climb 6b/6b+ sports)

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

Think of it this way: less to hit

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

As the angle changes the climbing techniques needed change too - a lot. So the more you do at a given angle the more confident you'll be. This also goes for different rock types too. So do lots of climbing on the angle and rock type you want to climb at.

Secondly accept you'll have to climb at a lower grade on that which you're less familiar - at least until you improve at.

Thirdly steeper rock usually requires more commitment. Unlike slabs where you can stand around for ages on steeper ground you have dwindling supplies of energy and thus limited time to figure out the right sequence. So plan ahead before committing to strenuous sections. Look for a good hold (a semi rest) or good runner placement to head for and then commit to getting there.

It also helps if you're confident with your gear placements and not afraid to fall (unless of course it's a dangerous fall). When you're OK with lead falls everything is less committing.


Well there's no doubt the more climbing you do the better and fitter you'll become. For the neck pain I'd definitely recommend belay glasses. You can get them for about £30 now. As for the overcrowding this can vary a lot depending on the time of day so see if you can climb at a different time. Very late, or lunch time for example. Or a different wall?

In reply to stp:


Or, if you're a real cheapskate like me, buy some TV glasses from ebay for under a fiver and with a bit of DIY invert the prisms.
(Can't post a link, but search for 'Lazy glasses' on ebay)

In reply to Mike Hewitt:
Loads of good advice here. Go fast, read the route, get used to the moves needed on overhangs and the body shapes (e.g. tuck your hips in).
When there are rests use them and shake out.
Whenever you find something you don't like in climbing do it as much as possible. It's the best way to improve. Bouldering always seems to fix deficiencies.
And climb with people you like. Going to a wall isn't to everyone's taste but can be really sociable and fun. I climb at the Castle - it's really friendly, there are always familiar faces and it feels like home.

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

Can you get out and do some bouldering sessions? Putting together some traverses could be good training without having to go to a wall?

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:


Yeah I had some of those and they're a great way to try them out without wasting a load of cash first. I couldn't invert the prisms on my pair, they were solidly fixed in, so I just wore the glasses upside down. When the climbing specific ones came down in price though I thought it was worth the investment. Apart from a better fit they're also much lighter so more comfortable and less likely to fall off too. Even at £30 they're still overpriced but indispensable for avoiding belayer's neck.

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

I'm a lot better on slabby to vertical terrain, than on vertical to roofs.

But nowadays, I can manage even roofs. And simply put, the reason for all this is bouldering. Bouldering will teach you pretty much all the technique (and also develop your physique) bar resting. And you can even practice resting whilst bouldering.

Naturally stamina is also something that you casual day of bouldering won't develop, but like resting this can be practiced.

Oh, and I do go indoors, but pretty much only for bouldering (almost never for roped stuff). A quick 1.5 to 2h hit on the local bouldering wall will pretty much get you fit, and also hone your overhang to roof climbing skills. Then just add sessions where you aim to spend as much time as possible on the wall. Meaning climb up & down, never stepping on the pads to practice resting and also increase stamina. 4 by 4 is also a good way to increase stamina.

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

I have a similar mental barrier when it comes to steep stuff so this advice is al really good.
One thing in particular that I struggle with (probably as a result of mainly climbing indoors) is the mental doubt of not knowing weather the next hold will be any good, or even where the next hold is.
Obviously indoors you have some brightly coloured thing protruding form the wall that you cant miss and you can generally see the best way to hold it from the ground.
I really struggle to be able to assess a hold in the same way outdoors, as often from below you cant see over a lip to know weather what looks like a hold a jug or actually some horrific sloper that I have not chance of holding onto.
This makes it really hard for me to commit to moves that I'd have no trouble with indoors.
Perhaps its just something that just comes with practice, but I've been climbing outdoors ~monthly for ~4-5 years now and due to living no where near the nearest really rock and personally commitments I can't really get away any more often.

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

Some great advice on here going into detail. Steep routes require a more gymnastic style of climbing that really means you need a higher level of muscle conditioning and finger strength, alongside a somewhat evolved footwork technique from that of slabs. Indoor climbing is perfect for bringing both that gymnastic style and providing a nice, controlled environment in which to work on that mental head game.

What worked for me was realising that actually, the process of switching the head off and committing is very similar for both styles of climbing, the key difference being that rather than being tenuous and delicate, the nature of the moves is intense and requires you to really focus on the moves and pull hard rather than moving super carefully.

In reply to Frank the Husky:


And redpoint some harder sport routes maybe, where you're going to be taking some falls.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Bollox! Sport climbers often find they have to drop a couple of grades to climb trad.
The best way to learn about trad is to climb trad.

In reply to paul mitchell:

Disagree.
We've all seen those trad climbers who've been climbing nothing but trad for 40 years and never progressed beyond VS.
Then there's the trad climbers who also push themselves on sport and boulders and translate their skills and physique to E3 and beyond.

Wally

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

The main thing you need to do is obviously get out of your comfort zone and choose to climb steep routes and steeper venues (the majority of Pembroke limestone or Swanage for instance). I do find the wall helps with general stamina but then I don't get to climb outside often enough to maintain fitness.

What I would say is that when I feel I'm climbing at my best I do manage to spot and take rests where possible and also I don't waste energy much (keeping weight in, using straight arms and jams whilst placeing gear).

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

Incorporate some training to incorporate good shoulder stability,... Shoulder presses, shrugs, other exercises that are antagonistic to climbing, Rotator cuff exercises, therabands, and all that, as your shoulders will otherwise become injury prone.

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

One significant difference between sport and trad is that with higher grade trad you HAVE to be able to climb. With sport of an equivalent grade you can get by on just strength and stamina so I am always wary of advising people to do more sport to get better at trad. It works for me, because my weaknesses are strength and stamina but IMO indoor climbing can encourage poor technique especially amongst novices.

Al

In reply to Mike Hewitt:
Sounds like your biggest hurdle will be overcoming your dislike of plastic. I found bouldering did wonders for my technique and strength.

Going from slab addict to overhang flailing won't be great for self esteem. Try building up the challenge incrementally, master steeper slabs them move on to dead vertical and finally overhangs once you've mastered the former.

Good luck. & Enjoy!

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

I have the same problem - practice helps! The wall's convenient for practice. You can pick your grades, routes tend to be sustained, it's less scary, weather doesn't matter. If you can find somewhere to practice outdoors all the better.

Also - if you get a sore neck belaying, this would be a well spent £24

https://www.climbingfrog.co.uk/products/climbing-frog-belay-glasses?utm_med...

In reply to Mike Hewitt: The grit VS - is the problem that it's vertical , and you can't rest, or that the moves and holds are more variable, difficult to read on the grit route. What are you like on slabby grit?

A well set wall would help you out on both counts.

In reply to paul mitchell: Yay! Mitch! I know, but that's because they're scared, not because they can't hang on those steep walls which is different. I use sport to get better at trad so I can repeat some of your routes.

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

This will seem I suspect like a very old school answer but have you thought of pull-ups? Long before climbing walls existed I was much better at slabs than steep stuff. Then I found a pull-up spot - just a lintel above the staircase at home - and developed a pyramid programme (one pull-up - 30 seconds rest - two pull-ups - 60 seconds rest - up to eight pulls then down to one again). I still use that system, though I also go regularly to the climbing wall now as well. I'm pretty sure it's the pull-ups that have given me enough strength to hang on on steeper ground and place trad gear. I used just to plough on till the next resting place before placing gear - not a good idea beyond around VS.

I've never led above E2 though - so look elsewhere for advice if you're aiming at the higher E grades. I'm also regularly out-climbed by others with less strength but better technique. I think you need both to be really good.

Martin

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

If you really want to climb steep routes then get outside and find as many steep routes of any grade that you can get up and climb them all. Forget about pushing your grade but instead go for volume and look for as much variety as possible.

If you are really serious then get out bouldering too, steep burly stuff.