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PRODUCT NEWS: Rockfax App Updated to Version 2.0

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 UKC Gear 25 Jan 2017
Rockfax App Version 2.0 - Montage, 5 kbVersion 2.0 of the Rockfax App is here and it includes full integration with UKClimbing Logbook as well as a number of other great features.

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 edhawk21 25 Jan 2017
In reply to UKC Gear:

still no android? this is frustrating.
 snoop6060 25 Jan 2017
In reply to edhawk21:
Just tried this, the logbook stuff really is considerably better than using the website on your phone. The filter thing is useful.

Though I have a suggestion. When reading your logbook every route has a green tick in the top right, which I guess shows you have it in your logbook. But it is green where I fell of a route but logged it (yes, im sad). Be nice if that was red. Not sure what use the green tick is otherwise as when reading my logbook I don't need a tick to say a route is in my logbook. Would be useful if it was green for an onsight, orange for a redpoint and red if you didn't finish it.

Anyway, nice work, i have long hated using the logbooks on my phone or tablet.
Post edited at 11:43
 yodadave 25 Jan 2017
In reply to snoop6060:

if it makes the logbook more usable on a phone there may finally be a reason for Scottish climbers to think about using the app.

Access to the 400,000 route database is a great step forward in my opinion. And I do realise that for financial viability focusing on Scotland makes very little sense.
 snoop6060 25 Jan 2017
In reply to yodadave:
Dunno if I have missed something here, what has it got to do with Scotland?
Post edited at 11:56
 yodadave 25 Jan 2017
In reply to snoop6060:

just that rockfax has barely any guides available for scotland and so having access to the UKC database through the app, (which you were talking about) would be something of potential appeal to Scottish climbers. That and I've always struggled with how the UKC database appears on my phone so maybe through the app it will be a little slicker.

That and the fact that since most of my climbing is in Scotland I was thinking about how the app relates to me, myself and I

In reply to snoop6060:

> Anyway, nice work, i have long hated using the logbooks on my phone or tablet.

Thanks for that. I will let Stephen know about your suggestion which does seem reasonable. Maybe a pale green tick or something?

Alan
 snoop6060 25 Jan 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Anything really, just a differentiation between the 3 types of ascent. I guess it translates to bouldering and trad easily enough.

I have just however noticed something that is a bit clunky or perhaps a bug. I can search the crags/routes in spotlight which is neat but when I click on the crag or route from within spotlight it opens the app but doesn't always take me to that crag or route. It just launches the app but not always the crag. Just goes to the screen that says "No crags installed". Sometimes it takes me to the buy the bundle thing. Seams a bit inconsistent.

Smalldale takes me to the crag for example. Raven Tor doesn't.
 SuperLee1985 26 Jan 2017
In reply to UKC Gear:

Still no Android version!!!! Seriously guys, you are letting down more than half of your target audience!
Surely the android version should have had higher priority than the Apple version 2.
Why weren't both engineers working on the android version already?

And it would be nice if you gave a bit more information about why it is taking so long instead of just 'it is difficult'.
3
 johnwardle 26 Jan 2017
In reply to UKC Gear:

Still no plans for Windows?
In reply to SuperLee1985:
> And it would be nice if you gave a bit more information about why it is taking so long instead of just 'it is difficult'.

Here are a few of the difficulties we came up against and things that have slowed down Android development.

Firstly we have had difficulties getting the topo to perform to the same degree that it does on the iOS version. We solved the majority of these issues a while back although there is still a lingering issue with some route highlights causing decreased performance, however nothing like what we had before.

The next big thing and something we have just completed after 2 months effort is to replace our entire back-end database. This moved from using SQL to a newer database technology called Realm. The benefits of this can't be understated in terms of simplifying the process of fetching/storing data, query speed and development time savings. Realm does however have some caveats though that forced us to redesign many parts of our data model resulting in many breaking changes that have then had to be accounted for and corrected. Integrating Realm into the Rockfax app meant that every database call had to be rewritten to fetch data from Realm instead of our old system. This basically effected every part of the app, so it was time consuming.

That's 2 major difficulties I can think of off the top of my head, however we've also had to implement new approaches to many other things such as UI components, how we parse the data files for crags etc.

I know people are looking at the app wondering what's taking the Android version so long - I am acutely aware of that! The app looks simple, but actually it's quite complex.

As we said though, Stephen, the iOS developer, is about to pitch in to help with the development of the Android version which will help move things along faster.

All I can do is apologise to you for the delay. It is difficult.
Post edited at 10:25
In reply to johnwardle:

> Still no plans for Windows?

Nope.

The market share for non-iOS/Android devices last year was 0.3% and falling.
In reply to snoop6060:

> Be nice if that was red. Not sure what use the green tick is otherwise as when reading my logbook I don't need a tick to say a route is in my logbook.

This is just a consistency thing. The routes on your logbook appear elsewhere too, ei the route drawer on the topo view, the routes tab and the wishlist and ukc scope. In these places the tick makes sense, and hiding it in the logbook seems wrong.

> Would be useful if it was green for an onsight, orange for a redpoint and red if you didn't finish it.

This is a nice idea - I'll have a look at implementing it.
In reply to snoop6060:

> I have just however noticed something that is a bit clunky or perhaps a bug. I can search the crags/routes in spotlight which is neat but when I click on the crag or route from within spotlight it opens the app but doesn't always take me to that crag or route. It just launches the app but not always the crag. Just goes to the screen that says "No crags installed". Sometimes it takes me to the buy the bundle thing. Seams a bit inconsistent.

> Smalldale takes me to the crag for example. Raven Tor doesn't.

Sounds both clunky and buggy. I'll take a look.
 daprince 26 Jan 2017
In reply to UKC Gear:

Yorkshire Grit?
 staceyjg 26 Jan 2017
In reply to UKC Gear:
I've only had a brief play with the app, but first impressions are, that it's functionality has increased tenfold with the logbook facility. So far I love it, if I find anything buggy, I will let you know. Thanks for your hard work guys, I know how time consuming the planning and development of this sort of thing can be.
In reply to staceyjg:

Thanks for the kind words. I'm very pleased you like it. We're all ears if you find any bugs that need ironing out.
Andy Gamisou 27 Jan 2017
In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:
Hello. Which android api versions will you be supporting? Thanks.
Post edited at 06:05
In reply to Scotch Bingington:
> Hello. Which android api versions will you be supporting? Thanks.

It will be >= v4.4.4 KitKat or API level 19.

According to Googles current figures that covers 86.3% of Android devices out there.
Post edited at 08:52
In reply to daprince:

> Yorkshire Grit?

Originally we decided to have a cut-off point for which books we would extract data from for the app - some would simply require too much work because of the differences in format compared to the more-recent books. Northern England fell the wrong side of that point.

However, I've just had another look at it, and I think with some heavy script-bashing we should be able to convert it enough to extract the data.

If all goes well, we can expect it to be available in a month or so.
 afx22 27 Jan 2017
In reply to UKC Gear:

The update looks like a nice step forward, however a fundamental issue for me is that I'm not keen on paying for a crag in the Rockfax App and for a Rockfax Guidebook. Also, I can't solely use the App for my climbing - I need the Guidebooks.

I'd like to see something along the lines of;
- Purchase Rockfax Guidebook (eg. £30)
- Get a unique licence code to purchase the equivalent electronic App Guide for a small add on cost - Say £3
- The App should sync with UKC, so all your logbook ticks sync.
- Users can choose to purchase the Crag Only Pack at a standalone Price (e.g. £20 - no materials, shop markup or distribution costs)
- The App will need to become fully definitive but I appreciate that would take a long time to achieve.

This would encourage climbers to use the App but in a way that we can transition from the Guidebooks that many of us currently use. Ultimately, we'll not need the Guidebooks.

Matt
 Angrypenguin 27 Jan 2017
In reply to afx22:

> The update looks like a nice step forward, however a fundamental issue for me is that I'm not keen on paying for a crag in the Rockfax App and for a Rockfax Guidebook.

For reference, this has been discussed before: https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=645279

TL;DR - Apple are not helpful in the way the store is done. It is a lot of work to make the app, even though they are based off the same info so they are regarded as different products. This is subject to change in the future.
In reply to afx22:

> The update looks like a nice step forward, however a fundamental issue for me is that I'm not keen on paying for a crag in the Rockfax App and for a Rockfax Guidebook. Also, I can't solely use the App for my climbing - I need the Guidebooks.

Hi Matt

Thanks for your comments.

Currently with the system we have it isn't possible for us to offer app and book linked purchases. However we are going to have to make the transition to hosting the App packages ourselves which will give us more control over packages and allow us to offer discounts for book buyers etc.

I do think that there is obviously value in each format hence I think it is reasonable to expect some payment for it. Rather like if you bought North Wales Climbs would you really expect to get North Wales Classics for free simply because it has much of the same information in it?

> - Get a unique licence code to purchase the equivalent electronic App Guide for a small add on cost - Say £3

We don't like this system since it is extremely expensive on printing. Also, when we host our own material we will be able to manage it, however it will only be for purchases made direct through the Rockfax site.

> - The App will need to become fully definitive but I appreciate that would take a long time to achieve.

This does bring up a new point which is worth discussing. I'll do a book scenario to illustrate.

Buy an Mallorca Rockfax in 2011 and you get that book to keep and use. When we produce a new book in 2016 you can choose to buy that with its new crags and updated info, or not. Your old copy maybe fine however it probably will eventually wear out. No-one really has any problem with this.

With an App there is potential for us to keep updating the info so that the 2011 guide would effectively morph slowly into the 2016 guide and there would be no new product to sell. The logistics of this are such that, at present, we are likely to only do this to a significant degree when working on a new edition of the book, hence it isn't a slow morph so much as one with a clear change happening when a new book is due.

Our current plan when this happens is to create a new app version based on the new book. ie. there would be a Mallorca 2011 app package, and a Mallorca 2016 app package. These would be separate purchases although there would certainly be potential for 'upgrade discounts'. The 2011 package would still exist and be maintained on the Rockfax server but it wouldn't be available in the app for new purchase and it wouldn't be updated.

I am interested what people feel about this? If you buy an app package do you feel you are subscribing to that area for ever? If so, would you prefer to pay a yearly subscription?

Alan
 planetmarshall 27 Jan 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> I am interested what people feel about this? If you buy an app package do you feel you are subscribing to that area for ever? If so, would you prefer to pay a yearly subscription?

I've noticed that a lot of software distributors have moved to a subscription based system. Adobe, for example. I personally prefer this and it is how I purchase all my software.

In either case you would never have expected to, say, buy Photoshop CS5 and get CS6 for free when it came out, but you might expect a discount.
 Blake 27 Jan 2017
In reply to UKC Gear:

Just installed this; have to say I think it's great! Really slick feeling and substantial. After climbing in spain for a couple of weeks over the new year and taking pictures of the guidebook on my phone so I don't have to carry the Argos catalogue up the route with me, I'm finally coming around to using a phone sometimes over the religious use of the book

The O.S had a system a while back where there was a scratchable silver panel on the map which gave you a one user redeemable code to get access to the map online. I'd like to see this get incorporated on all new rockfaxes going forward. Not sure how you'd give existing owners a copy of the relevant area, or if you're even obliged to. Just seems fair.
 afx22 27 Jan 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Hi Alan, thanks for the reply.

Thinking about it, the subscription route is probably the way to go. I appreciate you'd need to find a business model that works. I'd be a willing paying customer (within reason).

I agree that Guidebooks have their place but jump ahead ten or twenty years. Old timers might be using books but younger climbers will all be using tech of some sort. Where we get to and how we get there will be interesting.

I've not read the previous thread yet (I'll do that next) so this may have been raised before but I've had a couple of thoughts;

1. Imagine the app includes the full UKC database and the user can tick what they've done, add to their wish list and so on, as they can on the website. Then imagine they've paid a subscription for an area so they have access to the topos, maps and detail that the equivalent book covers....

2. Augmented reality topos - the user looks through the phone using the camera. If they've paid for the subscription, the topo and route description is superimposed in the phone (or tablet) display.
 phil456 27 Jan 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

In answer to payment for apps and books.
My view is that I would prefer to pay by the crag for the app, updates paid again if extra work has been done.
and book payment being separate .
Not keen on subscription.
Discounts are a pain in the neck from both sides.

My main problem with the app is, it's not definitive, so I general need to pay for a definitive guide as well.

The app is really good, photos are brilliant quality.
 deacondeacon 27 Jan 2017


> My main problem with the app is, it's not definitive, so I general need to pay for a definitive guide as well.

This is my main reason for not parting with my money. Is there a plan for crags to be definitive eventually? If they do become definitive will there be an additional cost for the user?


> The app is really good, photos are brilliant quality.

Really impressed with it and the topos are fantastic. Must admit I use the Ukc logbooks at the crag already but this will be a game changer.

I'd like to see a subscription price available too, but not sure how feasible (or profitable) that would be.
I reckon I'd pay £15ish per year for full access.


In reply to afx22:

> 2. Augmented reality topos - the user looks through the phone using the camera. If they've paid for the subscription, the topo and route description is superimposed in the phone (or tablet) display.

This is a next generation thing I think. We have already 3D mapped a couple of crags but it is a lot of effort and the processing software is tricky to use. Also, it would only be of any real use in the scenario you portray. Yes 3D topos look nice, but they are overkill when it comes to finding routes and they do use a lot of data/storage up.

We are considering using drone photography to get better crag shots, however the cameras on packaged drones aren't good enough yet, plus there is the social and environmental aspect of flying them in places people don't want to hear drones.

Alan
In reply to phil456:

> My main problem with the app is, it's not definitive, so I general need to pay for a definitive guide as well.

This depends on the area of course since an increasing number of our guides do have pretty well full coverage of areas.

We are trying to work with other guidebook producers to get more information on stream so that should help. We also hope to eventually create a public submit facility for people to upload their own topos crags for places that aren't covered by the Rockfax data.

> The app is really good, photos are brilliant quality.

Thanks

Alan
In reply to deacondeacon:

> This is my main reason for not parting with my money. Is there a plan for crags to be definitive eventually? If they do become definitive will there be an additional cost for the user?

See answer above about more complete coverage. As for charging - I am not sure what model we will use at this stage.

> Really impressed with it and the topos are fantastic. Must admit I use the Ukc logbooks at the crag already but this will be a game changer.

Thanks

> I reckon I'd pay £15ish per year for full access.

Is that full access to all the Rockfax guide information you are thinking of for your £15? That does seem quite a good deal.

Alan
 deacondeacon 28 Jan 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I think drone shots would be fine at 5am on a summer morning, don't want loads of people climbing in the photos anyway

Going to buy Eastern Grit this weekend to give it a test in the field.
 joe1joe1joe2 31 Mar 2017
In reply to UKC Gear:

Do you guys know whether I get access to the app data if I also buy the hard copy of the guidebook?

Or would I have to purchase the guide again on the iPhone? As well as having already purchased the hard copy?
In reply to joe1joe1joe2:

Hi Joe

This is covered in our FAQ page - https://www.rockfax.com/publications/rockfax-app/#faq

The relevant bit is...

Q6: I have the Rockfax book, can I get the app for free or a discount?
No, the app and books are separate purchases. There are two main reasons for this.
1) We have no idea who has bought a book so would be unable to offer this for historic purchases.
2) We regard these as separate products which are used in different ways. Rather like North Wales Climbs and North Wales Classics are separate Rockfax products with similar content but different appeals.

Alan
 troutio 19 Sep 2017
In reply to UKC Gear:

Hi guys. Wondering if you had any update on progress with the Android app? Cheers!
1
In reply to UKC Gear:

Brilliant. Thanks guys! Still loving it. Makes lugging a guidebook in and out of the boulder ruckle a thing of the past!
 routrax 24 Oct 2017
In reply to johnwardle:

Symbian?

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