UKC

Hello climbers!

I am designing a soft ground anchor to increase safety in those dangerous trad climbing situations..

1. When faced with a run out grass slope to (reaching the top of a sea cliff or mountain after a rock route or searching for/accessing a new sea cliff crag which is proving difficult to locate/ access safely)

2.Reaching the top of a route to find out there are no rocks to place gear in, no fence post or stakes to sling or you have simply used up the only bits of gear which would have fitted.. or worse you got really scared on the route and have nothing left but yourself to use as an anchor when belaying your seconder up the pitch!

So I am wondering..

a) Is this something you would use?

b) If so, what would be;
-The maximum size and weight you would carry up with you? (if unknown figures, relative to a set of wires or medium size cam etc?)
-Maximum you would spend on this product?

c) Would you prefer a product that you;
1) Take to the crag in your rucksack but just used for abseiling?
2) A versatile product which can be used for abseiling, protecting grass slopes and as an emergency belay anchor or back up device?

Thankyou very much for taking the time to read this, I would really appreciate any response to my questions and your opinions and thoughts.

Thanks, Eve.

p.s. hope your having a great weekend climbing outside wherever you are!

In reply to eel:

I think there are two very different cases here.

For the abseil anchor to be placed in advance then it absolutely must not fail, but weight isn't all that important and it's OK if it takes a bit of time and effort to set up.

Something placed on lead is a different matter. It doesn't have to be as solid but placement needs to be reasonably quick and it has to not get in the way too much.

Last time I climbed something where that would have been useful I ended up carrying an ice hammer and some marquee stakes. They had the virtue of being quick to hammer in and the right sort of size to strap to the outside of a rucsac but were unconvincing even when equalised.

Something smaller than a traditional belay stake but more convincing than oversized tent pegs would be of interest to me.

On the sort of route where I would be using something like that rather than a preplaced belay stake then I would probably have a hammer of some sort so drive in is fine.

In reply to eel:

This might give some ideas: http://dmmprofessional.com/products/talon/

In reply to eel:
Snow stakes work on grass, or rather soil and bog. Many moons ago I was part of testing just how strong two or three equalised on even soggy ground were. I recall it was impressive.

Dead men will work too, the pain is having to carry and hammer in. Unless it single pitch and you can pre place, which if arriving at a grass topped crag and no prior knowledge a little exit inspection is often time well spent, leaving something bright on a stake saves time when topping out later.

There are also big anchors built for 4x4s with winches if you wish to invent something for them too.

Imh experience unless new routing there already metal rods or angle iron hammered into most grassy cliff tops, in fact the problem was solved so long ago many of them might need replacing.

Often if unsure you can treat a grassy exit like a cornice and belay just below it, thus allowing the person who tops out 45m or so of rope to find something.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Talon looks great for belay setup, but not sure I would take one on a route. Maybe a version with fewer hooks would be a better tradeoff for leading.

In reply to eel:

Rabbit holes are the traditional solution. You could carry a specially-trained bunny in one of these:

http://www.catster.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/24bd21471f465752c176b296f...

In reply to eel:

I think it's a daft idea, but I'll bite anyway because I like a good engineering discussion .
1) the main location for 'soft ground' is seacliffs....therefore you're going to be able to get to the top to pre-place a stake of some sort unless it's a stack, in which case you could get the belayer to lower you off the far side to create an anchor for an upward pull. Descent would have to be by see-saw abseil, or a stake brought up by the seconder.
2) Have you read the stake info at www.boltproducts.com?
3) If you really must design a soft ground anchor then you need to think why soft ground doesn't work for normal anchors. As stakes work on surface area and friction (see point 2) you either need a long anchor to penetrate deeply, or a short anchor with massive surface area. Long anchors invariably need a hammer of some sort to place, so a hand-placeable LSASA (large surface area short anchor) would be best for a leader. This could be in the form of lots of small anchors tied together, or one big one. The 'lots tied together' would be more versatile, so I think a load of mini snowstakes / deadmen would be the way forward. they could be chained in a line if you're able to move up and down the soft ground safely, fanned out like normal anchors, or a combination of the two. I think the ability to dig a hole for the belayer's bum and feet is very important.

In reply to Toerag:
It's not entirely true that hammers are necessary, a screw-auger type device could be driven in to depth with a long relatively lightweight tommy-bar.

OP: the problem you have as I see it is that steep earth cliff tops are not one thing with one right solution, even the brute force big stake and a bigger hammer falls short of ideal in dry sandy soil or where large rocks prevent it being driven to any depth. Soil consolidated with vegetation can seem secure but shear off in matts under little load where the shallow roots end. Often the soil itself is just a thin poorly attached and consolidated skin over loose scree. Blade type devices like a deadman will struggle to penetrate pebbly soil or matted vegetation. Short stakes, especially in typically poor cliff top soil have very limited holding power.

Something like the DMM product linked above is probably approaching the best practical compromise but it isn't 'climbing kit' by any stretch of the imagination, nor is it really adequate or reassuring as an ab anchor.

Many of my climbing years have been spent on and around grass topped sea cliffs and I think it unlikely you will imagine something that would persuade me to part with money then lug it around on the off chance it may prove useful. IMO it's one of those environments where a bit of prior thought and prep is better than a might-work technical solution. Still, if the ultimate aim of the project is a technical paper rather than a commercial product it could be an interesting challenge.

edit: I wonder if some sort of self-placing stake driven by a disposable energy source like a small CO2 cylinder could be a practical proposition. Having moving parts it's never going to be cheap and to offset the weight of the hammer action the body would have to be pretty exotic, composite or Ti probably. Then there's extracting it... A screw is probably still better and simpler.
jk

In reply to Toerag:

Hey Toerag, I doubt that there are many more experienced sea cliff climbers than you bearing in mind that "every" climb in Guernsey starts at sea level and ends on the cliff top. There were countless times that I would have loved some fail proof anchor when climbing there. Would have also loved some alternative to "threading" the wall at Ogmore. Hope you are keeping well and will catch up with you on my next visit in June. By the way, just rejoined the GMC. Mike

In reply to eel:

Can't help, but good luck, could be very handy! And you've started an interesting thread.

In reply to eel:
I've often wondered whether one of these would be good for 14kN
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Metal-Screw-In-Dog-Lead-Stake/dp/B001A2XG7G/ref=sr...

In reply to eel:
something like this: http://www.spyrabase.co.uk/category.php?categoryID=1903


Hurricane 900mm Lloyds tested to 1260kg/12.60kn. 45 degree pull very wet soil conditions.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

X2 equalized and used for ab anchors. They don't seem to budge. But there are issues. The others shown below would , I think be far better. You do need some sort of 'Tommy Bar' to get them in, particularly when placing them into heather.

Steve

In reply to eel:

I've seen people carrying screw in anchors designed to tie dogs up to for emergency belays of this sort.

In reply to eel:
I have used one of these quite a few times, you can store the bar needed to twist it inside the spiral.

https://perdixwildlifesupplies.com/product/spiral-ground-anchor/