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12
In reply to pasbury:
Are there many outdoor venues with insitu quickdraws? The article isn't really about managed indoor walls where they are easier to monitor. But hey ho, let's have a wee panic anyway.
Are there many outdoor venues with insitu quickdraws? The article isn't really about managed indoor walls where they are easier to monitor. But hey ho, let's have a wee panic anyway.
2
26
In reply to Hyphin:
Certain sport crags in the UK and many abroad will have in-situ draws. The sharp edges can sever ropes - I don't think it's panicking.
Certain sport crags in the UK and many abroad will have in-situ draws. The sharp edges can sever ropes - I don't think it's panicking.
13
In reply to pasbury:
I read about this the other day. Is it referring to climbing walls who have walls filled with quickdraws? Just about every wall I have ever visited is filled with them and they are usually pretty heavy duty. I also presume they are under some kind of responsibility to check these draws on a regular basis to ensure they don't wear an edge.
Am I missing something here?
I read about this the other day. Is it referring to climbing walls who have walls filled with quickdraws? Just about every wall I have ever visited is filled with them and they are usually pretty heavy duty. I also presume they are under some kind of responsibility to check these draws on a regular basis to ensure they don't wear an edge.
Am I missing something here?
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I read this as relating to outdoor areas. It talks about "climbing areas", which doesn't suggest a wall/gym to me
I read this as relating to outdoor areas. It talks about "climbing areas", which doesn't suggest a wall/gym to me
8
In reply to Hyphin:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/67521/mario_luginbuumlhl_dead_in_tragi...
It's not only the severed rope you should be worried about. I personally know of at least three cases of in-situ biner breakage here in Slovenia, luckily none of them with serious consequences. Had any of them been placed closer to the ground, the outcome could've been very different, though.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/67521/mario_luginbuumlhl_dead_in_tragi...
It's not only the severed rope you should be worried about. I personally know of at least three cases of in-situ biner breakage here in Slovenia, luckily none of them with serious consequences. Had any of them been placed closer to the ground, the outcome could've been very different, though.
4
1
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
This is about normal aluminium quickdraws being left on crags permanently. Aluminium draws wear quite quickly, and can develop a sharp edge, which can shred ropes (I have experience of this), and in at least one case a rope has cut, resulting in a fatality.
Generally, the draws in a climbing wall are steel and much harder wearing.
This is about normal aluminium quickdraws being left on crags permanently. Aluminium draws wear quite quickly, and can develop a sharp edge, which can shred ropes (I have experience of this), and in at least one case a rope has cut, resulting in a fatality.
Generally, the draws in a climbing wall are steel and much harder wearing.
8
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Wall draws are made of steel I think, they are presumable inspected pretty rigorously as no wall wants to be responsible for death or injury due to poorly maintained safety equipment. Outdoors no-one is responsible for inspecting stuff - you use in-situ gear at your own risk. If you look at the pictures in the linked article you'll see the risk might be more significant than you thought!
Wall draws are made of steel I think, they are presumable inspected pretty rigorously as no wall wants to be responsible for death or injury due to poorly maintained safety equipment. Outdoors no-one is responsible for inspecting stuff - you use in-situ gear at your own risk. If you look at the pictures in the linked article you'll see the risk might be more significant than you thought!
Post edited at 10:19
4
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
The problem normally arises on bolts that are only worn in one direction, such as easy ground where a climber won't fall or need to lower off. It's to do to with the angles the rope runs against the metal.
In a climbing wall all quickdraws get lowered off on enough to wear more evenly. A diagram must be somewhere online to show this. Probably in the article. Add to the fact that walls check equipment regularly, its not suggesting taking them out of awesomewalls.
> I read about this the other day. Is it referring to climbing walls who have walls filled with quickdraws? Just about every wall I have ever visited is filled with them and they are usually pretty heavy duty. I also presume they are under some kind of responsibility to check these draws on a regular basis to ensure they don't wear an edge.Am I missing something here?
The problem normally arises on bolts that are only worn in one direction, such as easy ground where a climber won't fall or need to lower off. It's to do to with the angles the rope runs against the metal.
In a climbing wall all quickdraws get lowered off on enough to wear more evenly. A diagram must be somewhere online to show this. Probably in the article. Add to the fact that walls check equipment regularly, its not suggesting taking them out of awesomewalls.
In reply to GDes:
I know that you should always have a bolt krab and a rope krab on your quickdraws to avoid damage to your rope, but can't see how this can cause problems when the draws are left in-situ. Ok the bolt krab will become damaged and so might fail, but I don't see how the other krab could then shred your rope. Unless someone decides to turn them round, which given their location is unlikely
I know that you should always have a bolt krab and a rope krab on your quickdraws to avoid damage to your rope, but can't see how this can cause problems when the draws are left in-situ. Ok the bolt krab will become damaged and so might fail, but I don't see how the other krab could then shred your rope. Unless someone decides to turn them round, which given their location is unlikely
24
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Have you ever seen what top roping through lower offs does to anchors?
This wears them like a file would (but slower)
Imagine filing metal, but only in one direction, at an acute angle. You would produce a sharp edge.
This is what happens to quickdraws fixed to routes, because they have more wear one way than the other, because they are not lowered off or fallen on as much.
Have you ever seen what top roping through lower offs does to anchors?
This wears them like a file would (but slower)
Imagine filing metal, but only in one direction, at an acute angle. You would produce a sharp edge.
This is what happens to quickdraws fixed to routes, because they have more wear one way than the other, because they are not lowered off or fallen on as much.
7
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I think you need to read the linked article Chris. We published a warning article relating to this back in 2014, because there is a real danger of cutting the rope in a fall - unfortunately proven in several fatal accidents worldwide.
I think you need to read the linked article Chris. We published a warning article relating to this back in 2014, because there is a real danger of cutting the rope in a fall - unfortunately proven in several fatal accidents worldwide.
16
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Have a look at some in situ draws! The repeated use (falls and lowering) wears a groove into them (the rope biner) which becomes really sharp edged.
I fell off a route at Smith Rock in the States a few years ago, heard a strange scraping sound, and looked up to see the core of my rope showing through a pretty shredded sheath. Around the same time somebody died in switzerland when it cut all the way through their rope. It's quite shocking how quickly aluminium biners can get like this.
After my near miss, I looked at loads of other fixed draws at Smith, and found a lot to be in a worse state than the one that shredded my rope. I started taking down any dodgy ones and throwing them in the bin. I wouldn't want it on my conscience if I read about an accident a few months later.
Have a look at some in situ draws! The repeated use (falls and lowering) wears a groove into them (the rope biner) which becomes really sharp edged.
I fell off a route at Smith Rock in the States a few years ago, heard a strange scraping sound, and looked up to see the core of my rope showing through a pretty shredded sheath. Around the same time somebody died in switzerland when it cut all the way through their rope. It's quite shocking how quickly aluminium biners can get like this.
After my near miss, I looked at loads of other fixed draws at Smith, and found a lot to be in a worse state than the one that shredded my rope. I started taking down any dodgy ones and throwing them in the bin. I wouldn't want it on my conscience if I read about an accident a few months later.
18
In reply to Chris the Tall:
The rope crab, especially the first draw and the ones near a change of direction get worn in a specific direction. This wear can create a sharpish ridge which, in the event of a fall onto that crab can damage a rope. It is not a problem with your draws that you fix and retrieve regularly, but is a problem with fixed draws. There seem to be more fixed draws on American and German crags than elsewhere, and I have seen some appalling wear on these. I wish I have taken photos, instead of just reporting the worn ones to the local activist (In the USA) If you go to your local indoor wall and check the first draw (It should be steel) unless it has been replaced recently you will find a mild example of the wear. Outside this wear is greatly increased due to dirty, gritty ropes and less checking/replacement.
Using fixed gear is always at your own discretion. You are correct in that you should always have a gear end and a rope end on your draws/extenders. Good luck.
The rope crab, especially the first draw and the ones near a change of direction get worn in a specific direction. This wear can create a sharpish ridge which, in the event of a fall onto that crab can damage a rope. It is not a problem with your draws that you fix and retrieve regularly, but is a problem with fixed draws. There seem to be more fixed draws on American and German crags than elsewhere, and I have seen some appalling wear on these. I wish I have taken photos, instead of just reporting the worn ones to the local activist (In the USA) If you go to your local indoor wall and check the first draw (It should be steel) unless it has been replaced recently you will find a mild example of the wear. Outside this wear is greatly increased due to dirty, gritty ropes and less checking/replacement.
Using fixed gear is always at your own discretion. You are correct in that you should always have a gear end and a rope end on your draws/extenders. Good luck.
Post edited at 10:48
2
In reply to Tommyads:
Fair enough - I see what you mean. I was thinking that the rope-worn bit would be smooth, but of course it's only smooth up to an edge, and if the rope runs over that.....
> Have you ever seen what top roping through lower offs does to anchors?
Fair enough - I see what you mean. I was thinking that the rope-worn bit would be smooth, but of course it's only smooth up to an edge, and if the rope runs over that.....
6
In reply to GDes:
If the route is steep/hard enough to merit in-situ draws then it's highly unlikely I'll get far enough up to examine them
> Have a look at some in situ draws!
If the route is steep/hard enough to merit in-situ draws then it's highly unlikely I'll get far enough up to examine them
8
In reply to pasbury:
Where they are outdoor, your responsibility to check them. Where indoor responsibility of wall operator. Just see this descending into, "indoor walls are so dangerous" cause folk don't read full articles a lot of the time. Look at news papers full of dramatic headlines above banal stories.
Edit: - so not "alarming", a cause for concern under certain circumstances. Outdoors no one has the responsibility to check anchors, bolts, quickdraws or even spinning or broken holds, except for the climber. Good etiquette to share any concerns but no responsibility.
Where they are outdoor, your responsibility to check them. Where indoor responsibility of wall operator. Just see this descending into, "indoor walls are so dangerous" cause folk don't read full articles a lot of the time. Look at news papers full of dramatic headlines above banal stories.
Edit: - so not "alarming", a cause for concern under certain circumstances. Outdoors no one has the responsibility to check anchors, bolts, quickdraws or even spinning or broken holds, except for the climber. Good etiquette to share any concerns but no responsibility.
Post edited at 10:58
1
In reply to pasbury:
So broadly the lesson is to carefully scrutinise any in-situ gear and not rely on it unquestioningly - much as I hope people already do with bolts and lower-offs.
I wonder if Mammut are trying to change the ethos and make perma-draws a thing of the past? Given what they can do to a rope this is possibly a good thing, but there are probably some steep, hard-to-work routes/crags where this would be really unpopular.
Taking out a perma-draw that is in good condition and someone has donated to "the cause" seems a bit self-defeating, removing a sharp-edged one is common sense! How to delineate?
So broadly the lesson is to carefully scrutinise any in-situ gear and not rely on it unquestioningly - much as I hope people already do with bolts and lower-offs.
I wonder if Mammut are trying to change the ethos and make perma-draws a thing of the past? Given what they can do to a rope this is possibly a good thing, but there are probably some steep, hard-to-work routes/crags where this would be really unpopular.
Taking out a perma-draw that is in good condition and someone has donated to "the cause" seems a bit self-defeating, removing a sharp-edged one is common sense! How to delineate?
1
In reply to pasbury:
How long until they're considered in-situ?
How about 30 minutes and legitimise crag-swag?
How long until they're considered in-situ?
How about 30 minutes and legitimise crag-swag?
2
3
In reply to Jamie B:
My measure for a draw would be if it's someone else's then don't trust it. Careful inspection may restore trust but frankly if I'm doing that I might as well bung my own in.
My measure for a draw would be if it's someone else's then don't trust it. Careful inspection may restore trust but frankly if I'm doing that I might as well bung my own in.
1
In reply to pasbury:
One of the fatalities resulting from a worn draw was indoors. I hope all walls are aware of the problem and are constantly inspecting their gear, but I know of one wall where I had to bring the problem to the attention of staff. (In the UK about 5 years ago1) I haven't been back to that wall, for other reasons not associated with that complaint.
One of the fatalities resulting from a worn draw was indoors. I hope all walls are aware of the problem and are constantly inspecting their gear, but I know of one wall where I had to bring the problem to the attention of staff. (In the UK about 5 years ago1) I haven't been back to that wall, for other reasons not associated with that complaint.
1
In reply to pasbury:
Thanks for posting the link.
All the more reason to make sure that we place our own quickdraws/carabiners to save wear and tear on in-situ/permanent lower offs on sports routes.
> This is quite alarming:https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes
Thanks for posting the link.
All the more reason to make sure that we place our own quickdraws/carabiners to save wear and tear on in-situ/permanent lower offs on sports routes.
Post edited at 12:09
In reply to pasbury:
It is is also quite old news, this from 2012;
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/67607/worn_fixed_gear_can_cut_your_rop...
Mammut seem to have taken down the pdf now, the link doesn't work anyway.
They really should have dated the alert though (perhaps it was on the pdf?) so people can see it's not recent and we don't go through this every few years with people thinking it's new.
> This is quite alarming:https://www.mammut.ch/INT/en/know-how/ropes/notes
It is is also quite old news, this from 2012;
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/67607/worn_fixed_gear_can_cut_your_rop...
Mammut seem to have taken down the pdf now, the link doesn't work anyway.
They really should have dated the alert though (perhaps it was on the pdf?) so people can see it's not recent and we don't go through this every few years with people thinking it's new.
1
5
In reply to pasbury:
A well documented problem.
https://www.nkbv.nl/fileupload/Kenniscentrum/Materiaal/November_2012_NL_Pre...
A well documented problem.
https://www.nkbv.nl/fileupload/Kenniscentrum/Materiaal/November_2012_NL_Pre...
In reply to winhill:
Why does that matter? If it's new to anyone then it means they have been educated and potentially avoid their rope being cut.
Clearly the message hasn't it out to everyone yet as seen in this thread and on crags everywhere.
> It is is also quite old news, this from 2012;https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/67607/worn_fixed_gear_can_cut_your_rop... seem to have taken down the pdf now, the link doesn't work anyway.They really should have dated the alert though (perhaps it was on the pdf?) so people can see it's not recent and we don't go through this every few years with people thinking it's new.
Why does that matter? If it's new to anyone then it means they have been educated and potentially avoid their rope being cut.
Clearly the message hasn't it out to everyone yet as seen in this thread and on crags everywhere.
6
In reply to Tommyads:
Uh, because it starts with the headline "URGENT WARNING"?
That's why you get the OP screaming TAKE THEM OUT.
> Why does that matter?
Uh, because it starts with the headline "URGENT WARNING"?
That's why you get the OP screaming TAKE THEM OUT.
2
In reply to Chris the Tall:
There was a major article (and subsequent forum discussion) in Rock and Ice magazine a few years ago on the subject.
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/point-break-fight-over-fixed-draws
There was a major article (and subsequent forum discussion) in Rock and Ice magazine a few years ago on the subject.
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/point-break-fight-over-fixed-draws
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Just look at the first draw then. They're often the worst, because they consistently get a lot of wear when the belayer is standing out from the bottom of the route and lowering the climber.
> If the route is steep/hard enough to merit in-situ draws then it's highly unlikely I'll get far enough up to examine them
Just look at the first draw then. They're often the worst, because they consistently get a lot of wear when the belayer is standing out from the bottom of the route and lowering the climber.
1
In reply to pasbury:
Outdoor wear is far higher due to ropes being full of abrasive particles - ie sand, grit, rock dust. A good reason for keeping your ropes on rope bags in the same way you should clean your boots before getting on rock, to remove the abrasive particles that cause polish.
Outdoor wear is far higher due to ropes being full of abrasive particles - ie sand, grit, rock dust. A good reason for keeping your ropes on rope bags in the same way you should clean your boots before getting on rock, to remove the abrasive particles that cause polish.
1
In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
Is there any evidence out there on how the draw sling performance drops in UV damage from sunlight over time? I'd have thought in-situ draws need replacing regularly even if the crabs are not worn.
Is there any evidence out there on how the draw sling performance drops in UV damage from sunlight over time? I'd have thought in-situ draws need replacing regularly even if the crabs are not worn.
1
In reply to Offwidth:
Do you remember the pull test on the very old sling at the area meeting over at the Winking Man pub two or three years ago?
Do you remember the pull test on the very old sling at the area meeting over at the Winking Man pub two or three years ago?
In reply to winhill:
Can you think of a good reason to leave them in? There's a swell of opinion in the UK to not leave your gear in situ (OK maybe overnight is fine) as it's unsightly. The fact that it might be dangerous as well doesn't exactly act as a counter argument.
Can you think of a good reason to leave them in? There's a swell of opinion in the UK to not leave your gear in situ (OK maybe overnight is fine) as it's unsightly. The fact that it might be dangerous as well doesn't exactly act as a counter argument.
In reply to Offwidth:
http://eu.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_GB/experience-story?cid=qc-lab-gear-...
BD QC lab that goes over uv on slings and quick draws
http://eu.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_GB/experience-story?cid=qc-lab-gear-...
BD QC lab that goes over uv on slings and quick draws
1
In reply to johncook:
The one that worried me most, in those tests Dan Middleton did, was the test on the new sling rubbed for a few seconds on a lump of grit, breaking earlier than a new sling cut half across its width. In the field I've snapped a sun bleached sling, with no visible abrasion damage, in my hands like it was stiff card, on an old rap station in Red Rock NV.
The one that worried me most, in those tests Dan Middleton did, was the test on the new sling rubbed for a few seconds on a lump of grit, breaking earlier than a new sling cut half across its width. In the field I've snapped a sun bleached sling, with no visible abrasion damage, in my hands like it was stiff card, on an old rap station in Red Rock NV.
Post edited at 14:27
1
In reply to rztipping:
Cheers... but there must be better controlled tests out there than that, surely?
Cheers... but there must be better controlled tests out there than that, surely?
1
In reply to pasbury:
Maybe Eldrid arrived just in time with this: https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=9274 ?
Maybe Eldrid arrived just in time with this: https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=9274 ?
In reply to jonnie3430:
I wonder if edelrids solution will be at risk of Galvinic corrosion in an outdoor application?
I'm impressed that Mammut are making a stand on the issue when other companies are trying to make a product to sell instead. I personally believe in fixed draws but that is probably because I've lived close to steep climbing where I would say it is impractical and dangerous to clean the draws ever time.
There are now a bunch of stainless steel draws on the market that go some way to solving the issue of ratty nylon and sharpened aluminium I would guess the next step is Titanium draws as even steel is wearing out in high use areas like Rifle Colorado.
In personal experience I've removed worn gear, left my own and been attached to some horror show worn biners by a partner who didn't seem to share my concern.
I wonder if edelrids solution will be at risk of Galvinic corrosion in an outdoor application?
I'm impressed that Mammut are making a stand on the issue when other companies are trying to make a product to sell instead. I personally believe in fixed draws but that is probably because I've lived close to steep climbing where I would say it is impractical and dangerous to clean the draws ever time.
There are now a bunch of stainless steel draws on the market that go some way to solving the issue of ratty nylon and sharpened aluminium I would guess the next step is Titanium draws as even steel is wearing out in high use areas like Rifle Colorado.
In personal experience I've removed worn gear, left my own and been attached to some horror show worn biners by a partner who didn't seem to share my concern.
1
In reply to winhill:
Clearly this thread has shown that we do need to go through it every few years, plenty of folk completely unaware that fixed biners get worn by ropes
Clearly this thread has shown that we do need to go through it every few years, plenty of folk completely unaware that fixed biners get worn by ropes
2
In reply to GDes:
Agree completely. Not everyone has been climbing for a few years, and suggesting this is an old problem might make people think it is no longer as much of a concern (when it clearly is).
Agree completely. Not everyone has been climbing for a few years, and suggesting this is an old problem might make people think it is no longer as much of a concern (when it clearly is).
3
In reply to yodadave:
Titanium wears even faster than stainless, the standard industry tests say three times faster so probably down at a level of aluminium karabiners.
> I wonder if edelrids solution will be at risk of Galvinic corrosion in an outdoor application?I'm impressed that Mammut are making a stand on the issue when other companies are trying to make a product to sell instead. I personally believe in fixed draws but that is probably because I've lived close to steep climbing where I would say it is impractical and dangerous to clean the draws ever time.There are now a bunch of stainless steel draws on the market that go some way to solving the issue of ratty nylon and sharpened aluminium I would guess the next step is Titanium draws as even steel is wearing out in high use areas like Rifle Colorado. In personal experience I've removed worn gear, left my own and been attached to some horror show worn biners by a partner who didn't seem to share my concern.
Titanium wears even faster than stainless, the standard industry tests say three times faster so probably down at a level of aluminium karabiners.
1
In reply to Offwidth:
Can't access the DAV pdf right now as I am travelling, but IIRC the slings on a whole sample of weathered draws collected form the wild was good to loads exceeding specification, even when looking bleached or slightly frayed.
CB
Can't access the DAV pdf right now as I am travelling, but IIRC the slings on a whole sample of weathered draws collected form the wild was good to loads exceeding specification, even when looking bleached or slightly frayed.
CB
1
In reply to cb294:
I think your memory is playing you tricks, I´ ve tested a fair few quickdraws (as have DMM amongst others) and they weaken with age as do normal slings. I´ ve a bag of about 50 lying around that I could test next week but their history is unknown.
I think your memory is playing you tricks, I´ ve tested a fair few quickdraws (as have DMM amongst others) and they weaken with age as do normal slings. I´ ve a bag of about 50 lying around that I could test next week but their history is unknown.
In reply to pasbury:
I think in this country indoor walls are the most affected. There seems to be very few routes with permadraws on them in this country, probably because most of our crags aren't that steep, and most of those that are are so short you can put the clips in from the ground with a stick. North Buttress at Kilnsey and bits of Malham might be affected. But the routes are so hard and thus get so few ascents/attempts that I can't see it as a problem.
Seems like a very different picture on indoor routes. Although steel maions (pardon my french) are used on the bolt side of a draw, aluminium krabs are common on the rope side. Some walls use a steel krab on the first bolt because the rope angle would otherwise wear it excessively. But presumably it's not an issue on the others because if it was they'd use steel throughout.
Also the issue is not limited to perma-draws. Any old draws will eventually wear in this way (with the exception of DMM roller biners).
> This has nothing whatsoever to do with indoor walls.
I think in this country indoor walls are the most affected. There seems to be very few routes with permadraws on them in this country, probably because most of our crags aren't that steep, and most of those that are are so short you can put the clips in from the ground with a stick. North Buttress at Kilnsey and bits of Malham might be affected. But the routes are so hard and thus get so few ascents/attempts that I can't see it as a problem.
Seems like a very different picture on indoor routes. Although steel maions (pardon my french) are used on the bolt side of a draw, aluminium krabs are common on the rope side. Some walls use a steel krab on the first bolt because the rope angle would otherwise wear it excessively. But presumably it's not an issue on the others because if it was they'd use steel throughout.
Also the issue is not limited to perma-draws. Any old draws will eventually wear in this way (with the exception of DMM roller biners).
In reply to jimtitt:
Hi Jim,
Strangely i too have the same memory. I am sure it was Pit Schubert who did the tests, maybe 15 years ago. His conclusion was that degradation due to UV exposure was overstated as far as i remember.
Andy
Hi Jim,
Strangely i too have the same memory. I am sure it was Pit Schubert who did the tests, maybe 15 years ago. His conclusion was that degradation due to UV exposure was overstated as far as i remember.
Andy
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