UKC

Hi

Wanted to get some opinions from people about getting the right amount of recovery in. At the moment my training looks like this M- Weights , T- Yoga AM , Indoor climbing PM, W - Weights , TH - Rest , Friday - Indoor bouldering , Sat - Rest , Sunday - Weighted hill hike.

Im happy with my training but have to admit I feel smashed most of the time. One tweak I was thinking was making Wednesday a rest day and doubling up training on Thursday to include bouldering and a weights session ( legs ) .

And really this boils down to what a rest day is , is it better to be completely inactive or just make sure you train different muscle groups ?

Any advice and /or science would be great.

In reply to kingjam:

What are you training for?

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

This.

Are you following a periodised programme?

In reply to guy127917:
yes , im in the base strength phase at the moment.

Question is really centered around what makes an effective rest day

In reply to kingjam:


The general idea seems to be either total rest or "active recovery" -- something that'll get you moving around but not put extra stress on your body. So, light walking, non-intense yoga, etc. etc..

The other question that occurs to me based on your original post is whether feeling "smashed all the time" indicates that you're not recovering enough from your training, and need more rest.

I know some training plans will have a deliberate stint of "over-reaching" followed by a taper to recover, but I'm not sure it should be happening in a base phase of any kind ...

In reply to kingjam:

What's your priority?

If your priority is climbing, then there's not a very high climbing:supplementary ratio going on.

More relevantly for your question, one of your climbing sessions is also third day on so is going to leave you in far from best shape for making gains. You'll get most out of your most relevant training if you do it fresh.

In reply to kingjam:

Questions are relevant because for strength training, unless you are quite advanced you want to approach each workout in the supercompensation phase (fully recovered), whereas for endurance type stuff it's quite normal to be deeper in a hole of fatigue over several weeks before really recovering (de-loading week's) etc.

Factors are mainly your level of training (ie novice, intermediate, advanced), goals, and programming.

If you are just looking for recovery day advice- slab_happy posted a good reponse about active recovery. But in addition look at your diet, stess and sleep patterns- throughout the week, not just on rest days.

In reply to kingjam:

Where's your outdoor climbing slot?

In reply to kingjam:

well your rest days seem quite close together, how much indoor bouldering are you doing in that session that you need to rest before and after it?

Personally for me a rest day is an active rest day, easy jog/spin on the bike etc. This is a result of my old cycling days when you did a recovery ride rather than completely rest up.

In reply to kingjam:


I'm really getting along with 2 days training and 1 day off at the minute, try that.

Remember to EAT more and drink plenty of water throughout the days to supplement your extra training.

You will get used to that amount of training but the main thing I've learned is LISTEN to you body. Train accordingly and take an extra rest day or 2 if need be.

Found the weights and running dont really help climbing much but switching to 90% outdoor climbing after moving closer to a crag has helped my climbing massively (obvious really).

In reply to kingjam:

With the volume of training I recommend if possible scheduling your training in a rolling 2-1 style rather than assigning to specific weekdays. This works much better for me as guarantees a rest day every couple of days - it does mean you have to be a bit more ad-hoc with organising your training, however.

In reply to kingjam:

Rest isn't just about quantity but quality and resting on the right days. You've not said what you are training for so it's hard to help so here are Just a few observations:

- You do 4 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off, this doesn't seem to spread the rest very well
- If you're training for climbing, I'd do more climbing sessions.
- If you're training for climbing, I'd rest the day before your climbing sessions. You'll get more out of them,
- If you're feeling shattered, are you sleeping enough?
- If you're training for climbing, I'd do so actual climbing outdoors. Getting strong and fit is all well and good but getting good at climbing will benefit you more (speaking from experience).

In reply to kingjam:


I'd drop the weekly schedule and move to a cycle of x days training and y days rest/recovery.

The values of x and y will vary depending on the type of training and what you are aiming to achieve.

If I'm training hard I'd go for more rest days scheduled more regularly.

In reply to kingjam:

Based on a quick glance at your profile and logbook / graph, I'd say just climb more. Twice midweek and once at the weekend and I'm confident you'll quickly improve quite noticeably.

In reply to kingjam:

thanks all for the advice , has given me a good steer towards what I need to adjust .

In reply to kingjam: I always find it hard to get the training/rest balance right, so interested in this thread!

An immediate thought is that you could take an easier week if you feel that way. Good to do that every fourth week, to let body and mind recover. If it's only a week or two into the programme, you possibly (probably?) need to lighten some of your sessions, at least until you adapt more.

I think of base phase as largely about work capacity, in which case it makes sense to do a fairly large volume both in sessions and in the week, which necessarily means lower intensity. In that case your schedule looks ok but the rest days could do with being more evenly spread. But that's not the way to improve strength in my opinion (and that of many strong people) ... maybe "base strength" is something of an oxymoron?

Perhaps think about which sessions are your priority here? I've recently found it helpful to decide what the first priority is. That way you can see if you're improving on that axis alone. And also make sure you're fresh for those sessions. If the hill climbing with weight, the bouldering, the weights, and the route climbing sessions are all priorities on which you hope to improve, I think it's unlikely you'll make much progress in any before burning out. Better to think of most as maintenance, and focus on one to push ... I think that's why periodisation works in fact.

Anyhow, just my 2c worth, it's a difficult juggling act for sure!

In reply to Siderunner:

that definitely makes a lot of sense

In reply to kingjam:

It's not clear what you're actually training for, mountaineering, bouldering or what?

In terms of recovery one gauge is whether you're getting stronger each week or not. If not then you definitely need to schedule in some rest somewhere. Either change your weekly schedule by taking some stuff out. Otherwise, as above, take rest week every fourth week or so (which means cutting back substantially on what you (ie. volume/intensity) do rather than doing nothing).

In reply to kingjam:

I recommend taking a week off every now and again. Does wonders.

In reply to kingjam:
Your wish list is full of hvs's. To be simplistic, you stand on your feet on hvs. Unless you are doing it for other things, or ar e completely out of shape I would sack off all the weights.

Climb outside.

Incidentally your wish list is a good list.

In reply to ian caton:


Sloth and FBD require a certain amount of upper body strength

Obv depends on current weaknesses.

I've become more enamoured of the view that everything feels easier when you're stronger lately. That makes endurance routes feel less pumpy, and there are plenty of those at HVS (Delstree at Hen Cloud and King Bee Crack at Holyhead are two that spring to mind).

In reply to Siderunner:

Agreed of course. Though if you can lead the routes you mention you can lead lots of e1's.

The OP seems to be flogging themselves half to death. The essence of what I said is still true.

In reply to ian caton: Agree with everything you say. Sorry, I was just being devils advocate.

I got the impression from a glance at his logbook the OP is already fairly solid on hvs.

In reply to Siderunner:


I don't think that upper body strength - beyond the bare minimum for climbing - is useful on those routes. Or if it is, it's a way of getting up the route while being incredibly inefficient. With very little strength, but good crack climbing technique, these routes should be a breeze. I'm fairly bad at climbing cracks, so when I do these routes, there's a bit of huffing and puffing going on, but it's because of my crap technique, not lack of upper body strength or pump endurance.

As above, surely the way to climb HVSs is to climb HVS, not to train all day so you can climb badly and yet still make it to the top?


.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Well written.

In reply to kingjam:

Never underestimate the benifit of rest (and recovery) I don't think train8ng because it's on your schedule is always the best way, you have to be flexible in the approach sometimes and understand what's happening with your body, if you feel like you need to rest then rest and if some weeks you need more rest then do that, over training can lead to inadequate recovery and actually end up stagnating or getting worse rather than better. What about changing weight session to climbing or fingerboard if your not able to get out or to the wall? Interestingly Eric horst recommends 2 to 3 days rest after max strength training on a fingerboard and 3 to 5 days rest if using additional weights on the fingerboard

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yes, fair enough. But living in london it's easier to get stronger than better at grit

Perhaps I was projecting my situation - being unable to boulder out the crux on my RP project - onto that of the OP

Technique for sure is invaluable. But comes a time when you can't pull the moves due to strngth. Also, upper body weights are very usful as prehab for bouldering (the usual prescription for gaining strength in climbing).

In reply to Siderunner:


No climbing walls with cracks? In my old bouldering wall (now shut) there was a great overhanging hand crack that was really good for learning to jam.


Yeah, somewhere around E4 6b!