UKC

I was out for a day sport climbing yesterday with a new climbing partner, both of us similar-ish level (definitely not rock gods, climbing <6a+!), both relatively inexperienced at lead sport, but. both very much a safe pair of hands when it comes to lead belaying and safety procedures.

Packing up after being too tired to even finish an easy route, a couple with 2 young children and a dog in tow started up a route just behind us.
My partner spotted the issues before me and ran over to spot the leader as he was already in trouble before the first bolt (the route, although a very low grade has a tough start and pretty crap landing zone if you stuff it up). I went over to offer further assistance and it was immediately clear there were a number of issues, almost any one of which could have had dire consequences.
The belayer had never belayed before, let alone lead, the belay device was upside-down, like you would if you bringing up a second (not in itself a problem if you were an experienced belayer), but not ideal
They were climbing on a super skinny half rope, probably 8-8.3mm I reckon, defo a half as I checked the tag on the end, compounding the belay device issue, in my mind at least.
The belayer was also supervising the children, one of which (possibly 3yrs old?) wandered off and fell over a rock and started crying (my partner went and fed the child chocolate cookies, which seemed a great temporary solution as the crying stopped).
The climber, still climbing, was having great difficulty at around the 3rd bolt, managed to get it a draw in and clipped the rope, by this time I was already holding the dead rope as I was expecting him to fall.
Then the real horror of the situation arose when the climber asked "how do you guys get down from here?" or something like that.
I asked if he had a sling, meaning a PAS or similar when what must have been a 4m sling was produced, which didn't really fill me with confidence, I asked if he could clip the draw to his belay loop, he asked 'instead of the rope?" "NOOOO! DO NOT UNCLIP THE ROPE!" was my reply, I got him to clip another draw to the first and then that into his belay loop, and made sure he weighted them to test them.
As I felt he was as safe as we could make him, I then had to put my harness back on take over belaying while trying to talk him through untying, rethreading the bolt and retying without actually being able to see what he was doing, which was pretty scary as I felt that me and my partner were now in control of this nightmare. This part of the operation, fortunately went well, i lowered him while he cleaned his draws and the drama ended.
After it was over, it was clear the climber was obviously unaware of the danger he was in, or even that he had effectively been rescued.

This is the first time I (or my climbing partner) have intervened to such a degree and walking back to the campsite we were discussing if we had did the right thing.

Should we have just left them to it?
Should we have just told them to stop climbing?
Did intervening make us responsible for any potential accident?

So many questions...

I personally still think that that we did the right thing at the time, as the climber didn't have a ground fall from about 8m in front of his wife (presumably), two small children and (hungry) labrador, which would have been a horrific experience for everybody. The location would probably have required a helicopter rescue too

What would you guys have done?

Also... If in the unlikely event the climber in question reads this, please do a course or go out with an experienced climber to teach you how to lower off or bail from a route safely. And buy a proper single rope!

Steve
(a shit, but safe climber)

In reply to routrax:

Whilst we all start somewhere this is clearly a case of carelessness and they were lucky somebody was there to help them out. It's a hard call on accountability if something did happen but as a decent human being you feel obligated to stop a potential accident. Well played.

In reply to routrax:





In the same order

No,

Yes, tactfully

No.

Well done for being public spirited and intervening.

In reply to routrax:
There is no right or wrong answer really you just have to go with each event. I have ignored and walked away, and I have gotten involved. If you have a concern, express it to the other party and ask if you can help. You may get told to "xxxx" off, your offer might be gladly received. Point is ask, not just jump in.

For instance are you sure it was a half rope rather than a skinny triple rated rope? I.e. All three standards would be marked on the end.

I expect what you saw was correct, and they were unprepared. The point being we all see things from a certain perspective. You have to be polite, explain your concerns clearly and offer help.

In reply to Wayne S:

I think we approached the situation as tactfully as possible. The belayer was very glad of our assistance, which to be honest, in my limited experience, when it all goes tits up, it's the belayer that normally has to save the day.

Defo a half rope BTW, I've just bought new half ropes recently and being a bit OCD like in my research currently know quite a bit about them and how they are marked, this has the 1/2 inside a circle, which if i'm correct, is a half rope only.

Hopefully I won't be in that situation again too soon, but if see a potential disaster again, I'll offer assistance, even at the risk of being told to f*ck off!

In reply to routrax:
We all taught ourselves from books, mags, each other, years ago, and probably a few of us still do, without going to walls or on courses. Probably a few of us will admit to realising we were doing something in less than the optimal way whilst in the process, eg, years ago i probably shock loaded my belay set up without even knowing it was an issue, more than once.

I think you did well, and it's a difficult thing to address people's errors, as in explain to them that they could do with some supervision / help from an instructor / practice at a climbing wall, even when they have been a danger to themselves (without realising! ) people can be offended / too much pride / not enough humility to realise you might have just stopped them at the edge of disaster, but that's the bit i would have tried to add here, to point out that they should get help somewhere with getting it right before killing themselves.. (they /he admitted they didn't know how to get down... but perhaps had some gear to try with)... that it's pretty easy to visit a wall and learn the basics.

In reply to routrax:

Well-done for getting involved - I think we just have to hope that even a non-climbing judge would see that your attempt to rescue was better than their odds on their own, even if it did go wrong. Because the alternative would be that we have to walk on by, which is not acceptable, as we have all made mistakes (tho not usually to ths extent!). Also, the sins of this foolish climber should not be visited on his kids! (as for his partner, she is perhaps somewhere in the middle, I would assume this is not the first £uckwitted thing he has involved her in!).

I think I might just have lowered him down without worrying about rethreading, and left a couple of his qdraws behind - still a cheap lesson for him - but I wasn't there, you were. And I have the benefit of hindsight! You did well in a stressful situation, so sticking to a routine you knew was a sensible and understandable strayegy, with a positive outcome. You have changed a family's life for the better - not a bad day out!

In reply to routrax:

Spot on there, you did exactly the right thing. Absolutely frightening to think these people are parents.!

In reply to routrax:
I definitely think you did the right thing. An incompetent belayer is really dangerous because it makes you feel safe even though you could be effectively soloing.

Personally I wouldn't have bothered trying to instruct them in how to rethread a bolt. I'd have kept it simple, lowered them off the route and worried about the gear later.

Sounds like you averted a potential serious injury or worse though. Have a pint.

Edit: I'm assuming the bolt they lowered off wasn't one of the potentially sharp ones.

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

No, is was one of the lovely staples the Dorset bolt fund installs.

Love them guys, they do amazing work.

In reply to routrax:

Great. Nice job.

In reply to Yorik:


Don't quite know how your logic follows through there. Sounds like the OP was spot on in their actions, and that the "victim" was just outside their climbing competence..by a fair bit. Hopefully they will get a bit of training or go out with someone wise and keep their family safe...and climbing.

In reply to routrax:

I'm sure it was a half rope from your description, just making the point that a triple rated rope would have the single, half and twin rope symbols on the rope end, depending on angle you might see only one of the symbols. I guess only to be devils advocate.

For what it's worth it sounds like you did a good thing, and it was well received.

I guess it gets trickier when the observed errors are less cut and dried.

In reply to routrax:


Filmed it.






I'm ****joking FFS**** for the humour challenged here...

In reply to Yorik:


Heaven forbid that parents should get out and active.

It would be far better all round if they spent all day lounging around indoors.

In reply to Wainers44:

Having seen many people being instructed, I would suggest these people have been instructed by some who has a qualification but no real experience, and there are a lot of them. This poor instruction left them thinking they knew, but then when reality struck and they were in a not so safe environment they (hopefully) realised that better instruction is needed.
You would be amazed at the appalling quality of instruction I have seen on crags and indoors. I always offer assistance for minor errors, but have been know to barge into a situation where someone will get hurt, to prevent injury. How some of these people have got qualified and reached the age they have I don't know. I have been told by one instructor, "I don't climb myself, never have done, I get scared!"

In reply to routrax:

Definitely did the right thing there.

On Saturday we saw some guy solo up a ~40m HS/VS? pretty thing slab to say hi to his friend at the top, his friend then said I don't want you to ab off on my rope because something or other, so the guy was about to start downclimbing before we said no, we don't want to see you splatter at the bottom, use ours.

The amount of people not having any idea what they're doing while climbing never ceases to amaze.

In reply to DamonRoberts:

I would imagine that if he's just solo'd a 40m VS he's got a pretty damn good idea what he's doing.

In reply to timjones:


There are plenty of parks in which families could stroll around, avoiding the inherent danger of climbing. Especially when they have no idea what they're doing. It's not the incompetence that is worrying, it's the sheer lack of hazard awareness and poor judgement which screams 'how are you allowed to be parents'. Good effort in trying, just try something a little less stupid next time, parents. Or better yet, try the same but with proper instruction and knowledge.

In reply to Tomtom:


I'm sure that the vast majority of us have overstepped our abilities at some point early in our climing careers.

Does that mean that none of us are fit to be parents?

In reply to Oceanrower:
One of them also got to the top and began lobbing loose rocks from the top of their route right next to my belay.. His reason for soloing it was that he didn't like the idea of reversing the first few moves that he had tried, therefore he decided to keep going.

Dubious at best.

In reply to routrax:

I have looked down so many times at people who wander in directly below and look up. Even parking a carry cot. same in winter - climber 50ft behind who you see between your feet. Just unaware of the situation and the what ifs. Or maybe there are more people than we realise who have a brain that functions differently and don't do fear ?

In reply to barry donovan:

and most of the have a vote as well......

In reply to routrax:

You possibly saved two children from losing a parent by stepping in? That's a huge thing to have done.

In reply to routrax:

I think that i would have done much as you, although I think I'd probably lowered him off and gone and got the QD back myself. The angst of hoping he's tied in properly would have been too much for me, I think.

In reply to routrax:

The number of "likes" you have for your post says it all really. Well done for spotting the shit unfolding and positively stepping in and preventing a disaster unfolding. As others have said the only thing to perhaps do differently, which from your remarks, it sounds like you have already sussed out, would be to simply take control of the dead rope and lower them safely down, even if they had back clipped, it would not matter as you would be lowering a weighted draw that they are not climbing above.

I would have told them to leave draws one and two in for good measure.

You then have options for cleaning the route, which is a topic that has been covered several times on here before.

Having had a quick glance at your profile, it does not look like you have been climbing for many years, so even more respect for handing the situation so well. What are we if we cannot look out for each other.

In reply to routrax:

I met some climbers in Sardinia once who asked us 'don't you find it scary at the belay, hanging on with one arm while you untie and thread your rope?'. We weren't sure if they were joking at first.

On a different trip we came across some climbers who wanted to do a bridge swing. My climbing 'mentor' had done a few in the past so I knew a bit about it. I asked them how long their rope was, they weren't sure, so I suggested that they check a few things like that before they jumped off the bridge.

In reply to stubbed:

gene pool is reduced.just kidding.Act according to your conscience.

In reply to taddersandbadger:

My log book isn't that up to date, but, yes not been climbing too long, not compared to some of you guys that are much younger than me!

I'm of the mentality that if i'm dumb enough to get myself into the situation, I should be smart enough to get out of it.

I have to add, that everywhere i used 'I' I meant 'we' as there were two us managing the situation, James, who I haven't spoken to since the post climb pint and dinner in the local, put in equal effort and between us we sorted it out on instinct, with so little need to communicate.

He's on here, and I know he's looking for people to climb with, I can fully recommend him as when the fan get covered in sticky stuff, he's a safe pair of hands.

Thanks for the kind words guys and if anyone in the peaks fancies introducing me to the delights of gritstone...

Cheers
Steve