UKC

A recent visit to Pot Scar near Clapham set me thinking about the correlation between how polished a climb feels and number of ascents. The only measure I know for number of ascents is from the UKC logs, probably only a fraction of the total, but I would guess a reasonable indicator of relative popularity.

- Nirvana VS 4c (241 UKC ascents) - getting quite polished, a bit unsettling in places.
- Overdose VS 4c (128) - clean but no noticeable polish, big holds.
- Ringing Groove HVS 5b (69) - no polish and even a bit of grass.

Are other areas similar? There are some really notorious polished limestone crags, such as Chudleigh, Stoney and Avon Gorge, but I suspect the polish there began long before people began recording ascents on UKC.

At Stoney, routes like St Peter, Fe Fi Fo Fum and Minus Ten (each with only around 300 recorded ascents) were polished in the early 70s and have only got worse since then., but maybe a lot of climbers avoid Stoney these days To my surprise, routes at Trowbarrow are much more popular than these - e.g. Coral Sea (1229) and Jean Jeanie (1264), which feel a bit polished but aren't too bad by comparison with Stoney.

Piton Route (693) at Avon is very polished (inevitable with 'Classic Rock' status) but the number of ascents seems surprisingly low. Where holds tend to be sloping, as they often are in Avon, the effect of polish of course seems worse. More ascents are recorded for routes at Shorn Cliff - Laughing Cavaliers (1217!) and Bitter Battle Tears (819), but these aren't affected by polish, as far as I can recall, lots of juggy holds.

At Chudleigh Great Western VS 5a (408) is much popular than Logic E1 5b (154) but I don't recall any problem with polish on the former. However, Logic is a nightmare due to polish - maybe a lot of people flail about at the start, adding to the gloss, but give up quickly!

Another example: many of the routes at Trevor Rocks have become much more polished in the space of a few years since they were bolted, e.g. Borderline (429) and Haven't Got a Clue (527), victims of their popularity - I've never noticed polish being a problem at any other crags near Llangollen.

Conclusion? Maybe we all need to choose obscure limestone crags and obscure climbs to spread the load!

In reply to Rob Davies:

Isn't there a theory that a lot of routes got polished back when people climbed in big boots hence some routes already being polished decades ago?
The natural variety within the broad range of rocks classified as limestone (even at the same crag) must also account for differing degrees of polish and perhaps the degree of exposure to weathering which would help to remove the polish.

In reply to Rob Davies:

I suspect a major cause of polish is not necessarily the number of ascents but more the number of climbers attempting it and using bad footwork. Eg not having the confidence to place the foot correctly on the hold in the first place. but scrabbling about on it. and constantly moving it and smearing it around whilst trying to pluck up the balls to rely on it. And/or not thinking through the mechanics of the angle of their weight onto the hold so that it slithers away, for example when smearing, laybacking etc.

In reply to Rob Davies:

I doubt that it is just to do with number of ascents but also the terrain at the bottom of the crag (whether it is a grassy, gravelly or rocky environment) and thus what gets dragged up the crag to accelerate the polish. Also; how accessible it is, and thus prone to newbies dragging their feet up the wall rather than placing them sympathetically. And to add to that point, the grades at the crag encouraging less experienced climbers onto them.

Plus also the type of limestone whether is be coastal, inland, sheltered, weathered, oolitic, tufa etc etc.

Prob putting too much though into this on a Friday though! Bring on the future UKC student dissertation survey post.

In reply to Trangia:

Possibly routes most likely to get polished now are those frequently toproped by large instructional/leisure groups: a double whammy with both poor footwork and lots of people.

In reply to Rob Davies:

More acid rain is what we need. Have to karstify that polish.

In reply to Rob Davies:


I got temporarily lost on Piton route precisely because the polish ran out! A few metres before, and around the crux there seemed to be a lack of polish, except for the crux foothold itself.

In reply to Rob Davies:


But how can you possibly know how many people have actually climbed Piton Route? Endless parties did it through the 1960s and 70s, obviously without recording their ascents.

In reply to pec:

I think the Boots Theory applied to crags in the Lakes and Wales where nailed boots were worn, not limestone. I don't imagine anyone has done, say, Borderline in boots!

In reply to Trangia:

I don't think so.

(a) Some types of rock withstand polish much better than others. Examples outside limestone: Pex Hill where only a few pockets are polished; on the other hand Brownstones is like a vertical ice rink, simply the effect of too many feet.

(b) My gut feeling is that High Traffic = High Polish. High Traffic includes a few climbers with immaculate technique but most of us with none. And some with arms so big they don't worry about footholds.

In reply to Derry:

I agree with your last point. This subject really needs a PhD dissertation. For example, someone could install webcams to measure the actual number of ascents v. UKC recorded ascents. Then we would have real data to work on...

In reply to oldie:
True, but I think it's unlikely that instruction groups use Logic at Chudleigh for top-roping. It must be some bastard equipped with emery paper.

In reply to abseil:
That was one of my comments, regarding places like Stoney where polish was well established even when I first climbed there.

In reply to Trangia:


Agree. Mindlessly scrabbling in grooves is the classic - especially on limestone.

Mick

In reply to Rob Davies:

Back in the day. Malham right wing vs's such as swing over and clubfoot were polished nightmares. Not anymore. Acid rain?

I wonder at what grade polish isn't to be found. 8b?

In reply to #4fs:


Not necessarily to do with grade. Some crags have popular 8b's for redpointing, and they can end up more polished than some of the less popular 7a's.

In reply to Rob Davies:

Some of the polish near the start of routes is as a result of people not cleaning their shoes, or repeated bouldering of the first 15ft (Minus wall at stoney!) Further up routes, polish is often caused by people who faff and shuffle, using accumulated dust as a polishing compound as their poorly placed feet are moved in an attempt to find the best placement. Some advice I give to newish leaders is if there is a pair of really polished footholds make sure you put some gear in, because the next move is probably the crux, where people have faffed when they realise they are a the limit of their ability!

In reply to Rob Davies:
Many are keen to blame 'other peoples' footwork for polished limestone. This is slightly ironic because climbers with perfect footwork are less likely to complain about polish.
There are a few natural factors to consider;
-the best quality limestones polish up more
- polish is way worse on overhung routes which don't get a regular soaking with acid rain
- wildlife is surprising capable of polishing rock - eg. holes used for nests. (pigeons have awful footwork).

In reply to Rob Davies:
I really don't mind polish, it's a part of climbing on limestone and it's not going to disappear so I just accept it.
When I first started to climb on limestone after sticking to grit for years I hated it, slipping around on horrible shiny holds, trying to hang onto sharp, crozzly pockets while placing gear that looked like it was either going to slip out or shatter the rock.
But now I really like it. Foot placements can make subtle differences. Do I use the polished foothold, or do I use the unpolished poorer foothold? And if you're not sure how to do a route, you can often tell how the hundreds of ascentionists before you did the move.
Just got to learn to love it!

In reply to Kafoozalem:


The main cliff at Paviland is covered in incredibly polished slots and pockets. Most of them are choked with vegetation due to lack of climbing traffic....must have been very popular with the birds once!

In reply to Rob Davies:

Funnily enough, I climbed Fe Fi Fo Fum yesterday and made some comments about its shininess on Facebook. Chris Craggs left a comment just like yours about how polished it was even 30 years! I wonder how long it wasn't polished for after the FA? Doesn't seem particularly popular these days - I've not seen many other people roped climbing when I've visited Stoney in the last few years.

In reply to Rob Davies:
"This subject really needs a PhD dissertation."

Is polish purely mechanical wear/smoothing or is it partly filling in/layering over minute rugosities of chalk or stuff from boot soles especially rubber? If so then possibly modern soft rubber could have a greater effect than old non-sticky shoes.
Does finger sweat have an acidic corrosive effect especially on limestone? Its been said that chalk protects the rock, possibly by the carbonate neutralizing the acid or forming a temporary protection against abrasion. Excess chalk can makes holds more slippery, the effects may well be different with different chalks/resins and different rock types.

Seem to remember an old Avon guide mentioning the high degree of polish on routes followed by the tongue in cheek: "So have they not aged."

In reply to oldie:

It's clear from the evidence of the rock around us, and when it got polished, that old footwear was much worse. Also climbers were more likely to climb in marginal conditions in the past. If you talk to a tribologist the best way to polish rock is to have poor footwork with dirty feet. Good ninjas with clean modern sticky rubber simply do no next to no damage.

In reply to Offwidth:

Wonder the extent that "speed" attempts (by newbies, often over-weight, with dirty shoes, sometimes trainers rather than rock shoes, with shockingly poor foot-work) increases the wear on the rock (as is common practice at one of my regular haunts by large groups organised by a UK faction (in a foreign country) that you hope would know better (but clearly don't)).

In reply to oldie:

Yes - just go on a via ferrata and you'll find the handholds are all yellow and rounded. Having said that, a lot of ferrataists wear gloves.

In reply to #4fs:


I'm one of those climbers who will opt for Peak Limestone rather than Grit when I can (eg partners willing) and I've climbed on the Limestone for at least 35 years. My impression is also that some of the polished horrors of the past are now less polished. Is it that the rock naturally regenerates when climbed on infrequently, or is it just that my footwork has become better?

Polished Grit seems to stay as polished grit mind - possibly because acid rain can't affect it.

Martin