/ Scarpa Phantom Tech crampon fit advice

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L Cykeldagen - on 31 Jul 2017
Hi

I Just got a pair of Scarpa Phantom Tech size 42.
The 10th of august me and my friend are going to Weissmies and I'm going to try these boots on a mountain for the first time. Also this will be the first time that I will use this kind of boots, except for when I get a hold on crampons, which I will try in conditions with no snow before we head to Swiss.
In the future we have plans to do lots of ice and mixed climbing to.

Now I wonder if anyone have or know someone that has experience with the Tech boots and know more about what crampons that fit well for this model?

One Scarpa Customer Service Representative who I asked just mentioned that he have had success with known brands as Black Diamond, Petzl and Grivel, but that does not tell much.

Another Scarpa representative recommended Grivel G12 crampomatic (COM) for this first trip and for ice and mixed climbing the G14 COM.

Hope to get pointed in the right direction so I get a good start

Best Regards
Mattias Fröberg
Trollhättan, Sweden
LJC - on 31 Jul 2017
In reply to Cykeldagen:
I have grivel airtechs and petzl darts, both of which fit my phatntoms in 42 very well.
Post edited at 13:24
AlH - on 31 Jul 2017
In reply to Cykeldagen:

I've used G12s and G14s happily with mine.
L Cykeldagen - on 02 Aug 2017
Is Crampomatic the way to go?
I'm leaning towards the Grivel G12 to start with.
I probably order a pair very soon due to the date of departure is getting closer.
Smythson on 02 Aug 2017
In reply to Cykeldagen:

Petzl Lynx's with C3/wire front bail have been solid for me.

Safe travels,

S
L Blackcountrybill - on 03 Aug 2017
In reply to Smythson:
Me also.
L Cykeldagen - on 03 Aug 2017

Please also state the sizes and types of binding systems.
Post edited at 18:55
L Blackcountrybill - on 04 Aug 2017
In reply to Blackcountrybill:

40.5 c3
L Cykeldagen - on 04 Aug 2017

Got the Grivel G12 Cramp-O-Matic (Art. RA074A01) now.
Tried fitting them and took some pictures of them on the Scarpa Phantom Tech size 42 boots.
The front piece is positioned more to the inner side of the foot/boot than the left, should it look like that?
We also tried these on my friends Phantom Guide size 46 boots and on those it was closer to the center of the sole.
The front toe bail

There are a few points where it looks like the crampons could cause extra wear.
Some of these points can be seen in the picture gallery link and are under the front bails metal strip and also from the rear bails tensioner/fastener.
I wonder if the sides of the front bail loops should touch the boot or not as a suport? On the 46 Guide boots it did but not on the 42 Tech.
Is it normally possible to move the front bail back to the other set of holes? Those holes seems to small to make such adjustment.

Pictures:
http://pictures.furious.se/
Post edited at 10:16
thlcr1 on 04 Aug 2017
In reply to Cykeldagen:

Had similar issues with G14's on a pair of Scarpa Jorasses pros. The crampons being to the inside of the boot caused no problems when climbing but was terrible for walking. Constantly went over on my ankle when walking on uneven ground. Cured by fitting asymmetric bars. Much easier to walk in but be aware that it will make the crampon front point angle inwards a bit which leads to a slightly unnatural kicking action. Looks like you could do with moving the front bail back to the rearward holes. Should give a better fit and more front point protrusion. Its a bugger to do, but possible. The key is rotating the bail back until the wide bits align with the oval holes. Did I mention it an absolute bugger to achive!

Lee
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GarethSL on 04 Aug 2017
In reply to Cykeldagen:

A few points.

- Don't be too bothered about wear, the areas you highlight are fine and are protected by the rubber rand and with a solid fit there should be no real friction.

- Your size 42 boots are narrower hence why the front bails don't wrap around as well, thus there will be some lateral play. You can squeeze them closer in a vice if you like. Or just put up with your front-points probably slipping from side to side if you knock them. Alternatively Petzl front bails are good, or you can swap for the Grivel COM narrow bail, simple wire bails are generally a universal fit between most brands and you also drop the useless front strap ring. The COM is available just over the border: https://www.vpg.no/grivel/156738/grivel-com-narrow-bail?channable=e6119.MTU2NzM4&gclid=Cj0KCQjwt...

- The fit is ok but doesn't look that tight. You can test by putting the boots on with the crampons then stand on your front points on a piece of wood. Bounce up and down, wiggle your feet from side to side to see if there is any play, especially in the heel.

- The centre bar is not as asymmetric in this shorter configuration hence why there is some offset for the front section of the crampon. Its not an issue but you can consider getting the Grivel super asymmetric bar. http://grivel.com/products/ice/accessories/52-super_asymmetrical_bar

- I would perhaps consider shortening the centre bar by one notch to get a really tight fit on the heel as it seems loser than I would be happy with at the moment.

- Your front points are ok, perhaps a little short but for alpine snow/mixed this isn't a problem. If you plan to do longer snow/ice routes then consider moving the front bail rearwards to extend the front-points and give your secondary points more purchase. This is possible its a twist and pull system. Can be quite tricky/painful to do with bare hand, I suggest a pair of gloves or looping a sling around the bail to pull on.

- When you eventually progress to ice and mixed climbing, invest in a decent set of crampons with vertical front points, ideally ones that can be replaced and swapped between mono/dual points.
L Cykeldagen - on 05 Aug 2017
In reply to thlcr1:

That's valuable information, I just went over on my ankle a few weeks ago and had to use stilts for a few days.
X-ray showed no bone fractures so I have been doing some rehabilitational workouts every day since.
It has not healed fully yet and It will most likely take some time before the pain goes away and stability is regained, which makes it more important to have a very good fit instead of experimenting with funky angles right now.

I tried to move these original bails back, but it seems like I have to file the holes a bit due to the smaller diameter to make it posssible, these rear holes are for shure to small to let the clamped part of the bail slide in as it is now.
Would it be better to move the forefoot crampon part a bit futher forward by making such adjustment?
Is that what you mean by "front point protrusion"?

Fitting asymmetric seems worth trying, and possibly narrow fit bails, offset bails or maybe even some bails from other models or brands?
L Cykeldagen - on 05 Aug 2017
In reply to GarethSL:

I have been looking into these different bails and it seems that it would be worth trying some of them.
When it comes to the Petzl bails, is it the Petzl Fil Wire Front Bail that might fit?
Except for the Grivel COM Narrow bail I have also been looking at the Grivel Offset Front Bails but I'm not shure if the offset ones would fit the crampon and if those are narrow enought to make the crampon stay in place.
I rather not have things slipping, I want those crampons to be fixed evenly and tight.

The Grivel Super Asymmetric Bar would probably position the forefoot part a bit better but maybe it needs to be combined with some bail that could position the front teeth like they should be?
thlcr1(Lee) had experienced that changing to that bar could angle the forefoot part and front teeth inwards.

I tried moving the bar one hole back but it makes the two fixing points on the rearfoot dig in to the side of the sole in a way that might be to tight.

And about moving the front bails:
"I tried to move these original bails back, but it seems like I have to file the holes a bit due to the smaller diameter to make it possible, these rear holes are for shure to small to let the clamped part of the bail slide in as it is now."

Right now I'm thinking about if I should order parts online or if I should see if we can find some other well sorted stores around the Alps in Switzerland and try different parts until the fit is right.
thlcr1 on 05 Aug 2017
In reply to Cykeldagen:

if you move the bail back the front part of the crampon sits further forward. Consequently more of the front points protrudes beyond the boot sole. Are the rear holes smaller than the front? They shouldn't be. Can you disengage the bail from the front holes? if so they should go in to rear holes. it generally harder to get them out than to put them back in. The angle of rotation needs to be just right. If possible id try to move the original bails cus its free. Failing that try grivel narrows or Petzel bails. I think the asymmetric bars are must have given that you've had some ankle problems.

Lee
L Cykeldagen - on 05 Aug 2017
In reply to thlcr1:

Yeah, I did disengage the front bail , but when trying on the other set of hole there are not enough clearence for the clamped part.
The angle of the holes might be a bit different.
thlcr1 on 05 Aug 2017
In reply to Cykeldagen:

> Yeah, I did disengage the front bail , but when trying on the other set of hole there are not enough clearence for the clamped part.

> The angle of the holes might be a bit different.

That's weird. On my G14's it was a fight to get the bail out but went straight in to the 2nd set of holes which were the same size and orientation. Wonder if anybody else with G12's has any comments.

Lee
L Cykeldagen - on 06 Aug 2017
In reply to Cykeldagen:

If the bails should be able to fit in those holes I will try to find a store that has them in Germany or Switzerland and send these back.
Some store might have both the crampons, different bars and bails.

When it comes to the COM narrow bails there are different ones.
Those that has loops like the ones I have on right now and those which don't.
Should I go for the ones with loops for the extra stability points and use them to fit something that replace the metal strip maybe?
L Cykeldagen - on 06 Aug 2017

I found both the asymmetrical bars and the narrow bails here:
http://www.needlesports.com/2177/products/grivel-asymmetrical-regulation-bar-pair.aspx
At the pictures in this link there is a comparison of the width of the Standard bail (85mm) and the Narrow bail(75mm).
http://www.needlesports.com/1830/products/grivel-narrow-front-bail-bars-for-grivel-crampons-pair-rbn...

The offset front bail is a wide as the original G12 COM bail.

I sent them a mail and asked them about if it was possible to mount the bail in the second set of holes in the forefoot part of the G12 COMs.

Last week I also sent Grivel a mail regarding the same question but I have not gotten an answer from them yet.
Post edited at 10:25
L Cykeldagen - on 06 Aug 2017
I filed the holes a little and I was able to move the front bails to the other position and that made the front points stick out a little bit more.
This also med it possible to get a better fit for the rear part when adjusting the bar.
One could wish that there was closer spacing between the holes for more precise adjusting but hopefully I'm lucky when fitting some of the other parts.
Offset bails, narrow bails and an will hopefully be shipped here before next weekend.
Will take pictures of fit with combinations of the different parts then.
If anyone has more thought or experience with crampons for this boot model or related please feel free to share.
thlcr1 on 06 Aug 2017
In reply to Cykeldagen:
That sounds promising. Sometimes crampon fitting is dead easy and sometimes an utter pain. Important to get it as good as possible though. I agree that sometimes the length adjustment jups from to lose to to tight. I think Petzl bars have two sets of offset holes to allow finer adjustment. I wish Grivel did the same. Let us know how you get on.

Lee
Post edited at 16:13
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mff513 on 07 Aug 2017
In reply to Cykeldagen:
Hey, I would recommend for your future plans to move the front bail back one hole and see if you can get a narrow bail on them. I have posted something similar to this regarding crampons with c3 bindings and the best fit came from a petzl lynx with a grivel g20 front bail and a old petzl clip now that's a bit awkward but it is perfect albeit a bit fiddly but you should be fine for alpine stuff. Good luck
One other thing I would suggest is don't think you have a super tight heel lever try to get the little posts at the back to keep the boot in place. the holes at the heel lever are for the problem you have with the crampon being too big for the boot as that is how you adjust the crampon half a size up or down.
Post edited at 23:49
L Cykeldagen - on 08 Aug 2017
In reply to mff513:

Hi

Grivel narrow bails, Grivel offset bails and a asymmetrical bar is on the way.
I will try some different combinations an upload more pictures of the fit to.

I eventually managed to move those front bail back before but to do so I had to file the other sets of holes a bit. There had been some manufacturing problems so the other sets of holes was angeled so there was not enought space to get the clamped parts of the bails in there.
I got a better fit when I managed to move the front bails, which moved the forefoot part a little bit forward so that the front teeth protruded a bit more and the posts at the heel seemed to tighten nicely.

Is there any pictures of the Petzl Lynx/Grivel G20 and old Petzl clip combination?
Would such combination work with the G14 and G22 to?
If I go for the G14, will I miss the points on the bar? The ones that G14 and G22 have.
And in what terrain can all these be effectively used? What combinations of crampon setups is needed to for a wide range of use?
This winter I will hopefully climb some mountains in Norway and practice iceclimbing on waterfalls and glaciers to.
mff513 on 11 Aug 2017
In reply to Cykeldagen:
I've climbed ice in g12s with a basket at the front and they where fine. As for the g20 bails on g12s you might have to bend them to fit which isn't unusual. I'd suggest stick with what you've already got the crampons will be far above your ability on ice monos only work on mixed or dry tooling. For wider use a friend had g14s and sold them for g12s because they where to heavy. I do more dry tooling than ice and mixed but I don't suppose living in Norway you'll have to much use for dry tooling, I would stick with your g12s and see which bails fit. So to summarise
G12- good all-rounder, light bad for hard climbing
G14 good for climbing, can be a mono, bad for alpinism because they are heavy
G20/22 very light, good for hard mixed bad for glacier walking
This link will help you decide if you need G14s for ice https://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/getting_the_right_crampon
L Cykeldagen - on 12 Aug 2017
Have not uploaded any new picture because the parts did not arrive in time before the trip for some reason.
I'm hoping to find the same parts on the way there.
Don't know where yet but I hope there is some well sorted store that stocks the bails and the bar.
Soon the ferry arrives in Danmark and we will carry on drivning to Switzerland.

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