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Someone had to do it.....
What pitfalls await this resurgent Labour Party?
I feel that policy promises are being made in a bit of a self congratulatory bubble at the moment. The party is getting dangerously close to a cult of personality. They've done this before.
Do they need to grow up a bit?
What pitfalls await this resurgent Labour Party?
I feel that policy promises are being made in a bit of a self congratulatory bubble at the moment. The party is getting dangerously close to a cult of personality. They've done this before.
Do they need to grow up a bit?
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In reply to pasbury:
It's the usual party conference hysteria soon to be replaced by years of waiting for an election.
Probably.
It's the usual party conference hysteria soon to be replaced by years of waiting for an election.
Probably.
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In reply to pasbury:
I feel they need to tone it down a bit to appeal to a wide enough audience to actually get in, but who knows these days. The Conservatives do seem to be hell bent on civil war at the moment tho, the elephant though is brexit - nobody apart from Vince dare be seen to be going against the referendum vote or even examining it closely and who knows how this could play out
I feel they need to tone it down a bit to appeal to a wide enough audience to actually get in, but who knows these days. The Conservatives do seem to be hell bent on civil war at the moment tho, the elephant though is brexit - nobody apart from Vince dare be seen to be going against the referendum vote or even examining it closely and who knows how this could play out
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In reply to baron:
Sounds like you are describing the military precision stage management of a Tory party conference.
> It's the usual party conference hysteria soon to be replaced by years of waiting for an election.
Sounds like you are describing the military precision stage management of a Tory party conference.
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
Agree on the matter of the elephant; how can they possibly commit to spending promises without the stability of continued EU membership?
Agree on the matter of the elephant; how can they possibly commit to spending promises without the stability of continued EU membership?
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In reply to pasbury:
I'm not sure it is, becoming a cult that is, it's the change of direction that people are latching on to, JC just happens to be at the front of it.
It's a long time since Labour socialists have had any hope of seeing socialist ideals get any airing never mind a chance to be put into practice. This is the thing I see as the attraction of JC, not him but the policies.
When Tony Blair served up Sami al-Saadi to Gaddafi, he damaged any remaining thoughts that the Labour party were the caring party. JC seems to give people hope of reversing this.
Above all of that, I like the policies, we've already proved the Southern rail works better under state control, we should have a stock of council housing to allow some control of rental costs and tenancy rights. I'd love a National Bank, again something which has been proved to work and it profitable, when we looked after Lloyds. The stealth privatisation of the NHS is something we should all be fighting against.
So I'm not sure JC is a cult, he's someone who can be seen as having the "true" ideals of the Labour party at heart, not Tory Lite, which the party had become under Blair.
> Someone had to do it.....
> What pitfalls await this resurgent Labour Party?
> I feel that policy promises are being made in a bit of a self congratulatory bubble at the moment. The party is getting dangerously close to a cult of personality. They've done this before.
I'm not sure it is, becoming a cult that is, it's the change of direction that people are latching on to, JC just happens to be at the front of it.
It's a long time since Labour socialists have had any hope of seeing socialist ideals get any airing never mind a chance to be put into practice. This is the thing I see as the attraction of JC, not him but the policies.
When Tony Blair served up Sami al-Saadi to Gaddafi, he damaged any remaining thoughts that the Labour party were the caring party. JC seems to give people hope of reversing this.
Above all of that, I like the policies, we've already proved the Southern rail works better under state control, we should have a stock of council housing to allow some control of rental costs and tenancy rights. I'd love a National Bank, again something which has been proved to work and it profitable, when we looked after Lloyds. The stealth privatisation of the NHS is something we should all be fighting against.
So I'm not sure JC is a cult, he's someone who can be seen as having the "true" ideals of the Labour party at heart, not Tory Lite, which the party had become under Blair.
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In reply to krikoman:
"I'm not sure it is, becoming a cult that is"
I don't know about that, does anyone else find the messianic adoration we have witnessed a little bit unsettling?
"I'm not sure it is, becoming a cult that is"
I don't know about that, does anyone else find the messianic adoration we have witnessed a little bit unsettling?
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In reply to pasbury:
Unlike the Tories?
> The party is getting dangerously close to a cult of personality. They've done this before.
Unlike the Tories?
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In reply to pasbury:
Why would you want to gain power before the Tories have screwed up Brexit? Labour seem to have no clear policy on Brexit so trying to get to the top table until it's sorted (if it ever is) would be a disaster.
> Agree on the matter of the elephant; how can they possibly commit to spending promises without the stability of continued EU membership?
Why would you want to gain power before the Tories have screwed up Brexit? Labour seem to have no clear policy on Brexit so trying to get to the top table until it's sorted (if it ever is) would be a disaster.
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In reply to pasbury:
I don't think it's old or new Labour. Labour just went conservative with Blair. He played a master card making the core Labour voters, vote for what were in many cases Tory policy. Now Labour is back to normal. The Labour of 75-79 or other eras before that. Time to wake up, it's 2017.
I don't think it's old or new Labour. Labour just went conservative with Blair. He played a master card making the core Labour voters, vote for what were in many cases Tory policy. Now Labour is back to normal. The Labour of 75-79 or other eras before that. Time to wake up, it's 2017.
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In reply to krikoman:
I agree with your first point. With your second one I would disagree. I don't think that he is offering Socialism - just a rebalancing of a mixed economy.
Nationalising natural monopolies such as rail (which brings us in to line with several European countries, and merely replaces ownership in the hands of our own government than in the hands of foreign governments through a soverign wealth-fund proxies), and water, are no-brainers, as when in private hands, we see under investment and exploitaiton.
If we look at Labour's intended intervention in to the power market, this is also a welcome move; they plan to compete, not nationalise. A smart move and one that will not only shake up competition, but will hopefully drive innovation towards a distributed, green economy.
On this latter point, odd how the innovation is being driven by Labour rather than the Tories - who have historically been more entrepreneurial. Unless the Tories can reinvogorate captialism, it will continue to lead to decline (low growth/stagnation, inequality etc...).
> I'm not sure it is, becoming a cult that is, it's the change of direction that people are latching on to, JC just happens to be at the front of it.
> It's a long time since Labour socialists have had any hope of seeing socialist ideals get any airing never mind a chance to be put into practice. This is the thing I see as the attraction of JC, not him but the policies.
I agree with your first point. With your second one I would disagree. I don't think that he is offering Socialism - just a rebalancing of a mixed economy.
Nationalising natural monopolies such as rail (which brings us in to line with several European countries, and merely replaces ownership in the hands of our own government than in the hands of foreign governments through a soverign wealth-fund proxies), and water, are no-brainers, as when in private hands, we see under investment and exploitaiton.
If we look at Labour's intended intervention in to the power market, this is also a welcome move; they plan to compete, not nationalise. A smart move and one that will not only shake up competition, but will hopefully drive innovation towards a distributed, green economy.
On this latter point, odd how the innovation is being driven by Labour rather than the Tories - who have historically been more entrepreneurial. Unless the Tories can reinvogorate captialism, it will continue to lead to decline (low growth/stagnation, inequality etc...).
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In reply to summo:
Meanwhile the Tories are trying to put us back to Pre 1948, indeed back to serfdom if they get their way.
I don't understand why we have to go back anywhere, there's no reason why companies can't be run for profit for the people. It's already been done within the last decade, and done successfully. So successful was it in the case of Southern Rail the Tories sold it off as quickly as possible.
We going FORWARD into an era of less greed and more humanity, more for the people less for the few. That doesn't mean we have to penalise large companies, but they will have to compete with nationalised companies.
Why would it not be useful for each council to have a housing stock? The rents go back to the council, the fact they exist means the council has an influence in rental pricing.
The current housing crisis was a by product of Thatcher and the right to buy policy, not right to buy per sa, but the restriction on councils using the money from the sales to reinvest in housing. Imagine if councils around the country had been building houses since 1980!! How many houses would be available now? Instead they weren't allowed to.
> I don't think it's old or new Labour. Labour just went conservative with Blair. He played a master card making the core Labour voters, vote for what were in many cases Tory policy. Now Labour is back to normal. The Labour of 75-79 or other eras before that. Time to wake up, it's 2017.
Meanwhile the Tories are trying to put us back to Pre 1948, indeed back to serfdom if they get their way.
I don't understand why we have to go back anywhere, there's no reason why companies can't be run for profit for the people. It's already been done within the last decade, and done successfully. So successful was it in the case of Southern Rail the Tories sold it off as quickly as possible.
We going FORWARD into an era of less greed and more humanity, more for the people less for the few. That doesn't mean we have to penalise large companies, but they will have to compete with nationalised companies.
Why would it not be useful for each council to have a housing stock? The rents go back to the council, the fact they exist means the council has an influence in rental pricing.
The current housing crisis was a by product of Thatcher and the right to buy policy, not right to buy per sa, but the restriction on councils using the money from the sales to reinvest in housing. Imagine if councils around the country had been building houses since 1980!! How many houses would be available now? Instead they weren't allowed to.
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In reply to krikoman:
Didn't see the last Labour messiah reverse any of those Tory policies, despite 3 terms in office and a decent majority?
Didn't see the last Labour messiah reverse any of those Tory policies, despite 3 terms in office and a decent majority?
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In reply to pasbury:
Brilliant article
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/27/labour-conference-brighton...
Brilliant article
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/27/labour-conference-brighton...
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In reply to BnB:
Good article, thanks. My exact thoughts were already written by another..
'Corbyn avoided destruction at the election by telling a huge last-minute lie to naive and disaffected students, promising them the impossible, that he would remove their debts. They fell for it (although Corbyn has since walked back on that undeliverable promise) and he survived the election.
Through the incompetence and divided greed of the Tories, Labour has been able to re-group when, a few months ago, it was a party all-but finished... But Labour’s current love-in is all based on a fantasy... the idea that Corbyn and his shabby gang are actually competent to run this country.
Corbyn is now becoming addicted to that favourite weakness of all politicians... promising the impossible, just to gain power. The scatter-gun set of undertakings so loosely outlined by him are financially impossible for the UK and, if attempted, would rapidly drive us back to bankruptcy, which is where the Labour philosophy always ends up.'
Good article, thanks. My exact thoughts were already written by another..
'Corbyn avoided destruction at the election by telling a huge last-minute lie to naive and disaffected students, promising them the impossible, that he would remove their debts. They fell for it (although Corbyn has since walked back on that undeliverable promise) and he survived the election.
Through the incompetence and divided greed of the Tories, Labour has been able to re-group when, a few months ago, it was a party all-but finished... But Labour’s current love-in is all based on a fantasy... the idea that Corbyn and his shabby gang are actually competent to run this country.
Corbyn is now becoming addicted to that favourite weakness of all politicians... promising the impossible, just to gain power. The scatter-gun set of undertakings so loosely outlined by him are financially impossible for the UK and, if attempted, would rapidly drive us back to bankruptcy, which is where the Labour philosophy always ends up.'
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In reply to Shani:
"I don't think that he is offering Socialism - just a rebalancing of a mixed economy"
Its interesting how many Labour policies are being described by the press as "radical left wing" or "hard left" for example:
- Properly funding the NHS
- Running a rail system for benefit of rail users
- Running utilities for the benefit of people using them
- Housing that people can actually afford
Granted there are some more extreme measures than this being floated - but its hard to see the above examples as "socialist revolution"
This reaction is perhaps more reflective of how far right/market economy the UK has become vs. others (excepting the USA etc) so anything most would view as a moderate change is suddenly seen as extreme/radical.
"I don't think that he is offering Socialism - just a rebalancing of a mixed economy"
Its interesting how many Labour policies are being described by the press as "radical left wing" or "hard left" for example:
- Properly funding the NHS
- Running a rail system for benefit of rail users
- Running utilities for the benefit of people using them
- Housing that people can actually afford
Granted there are some more extreme measures than this being floated - but its hard to see the above examples as "socialist revolution"
This reaction is perhaps more reflective of how far right/market economy the UK has become vs. others (excepting the USA etc) so anything most would view as a moderate change is suddenly seen as extreme/radical.
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In reply to summo:
Which might explain why some people see JC as the new JC, which was the basis of my post earlier.
He's seen as a possibility for change, and one which a lot of people have been trying to achive for sometime, it's now seen as a party that listens to it supporters and works for them.
> Didn't see the last Labour messiah reverse any of those Tory policies, despite 3 terms in office and a decent majority?
Which might explain why some people see JC as the new JC, which was the basis of my post earlier.
He's seen as a possibility for change, and one which a lot of people have been trying to achive for sometime, it's now seen as a party that listens to it supporters and works for them.
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In reply to jonfun21:
I agree with everything you written.
When and why has socialism become a dirty word, surely as society in which we all care for each other is one to be strived towards.
I agree with everything you written.
When and why has socialism become a dirty word, surely as society in which we all care for each other is one to be strived towards.
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In reply to krikoman:
Wow, a change back to the Labour of 75-79... just what the uk needs.
> Which might explain why some people see JC as the new JC, which was the basis of my post earlier.
> He's seen as a possibility for change, and one which a lot of people have been trying to achive for sometime, it's now seen as a party that listens to it supporters and works for them.
> He's seen as a possibility for change, and one which a lot of people have been trying to achive for sometime, it's now seen as a party that listens to it supporters and works for them.
Wow, a change back to the Labour of 75-79... just what the uk needs.
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In reply to summo:
Just repeating 75-79 doesn't make it true.
meanwhile we're pissing public money away to private companies that are actively avoiding paying tax, you think this is a great future for our NHS.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/21/ow-lucrative--deals-go-to-f...
Just repeating 75-79 doesn't make it true.
meanwhile we're pissing public money away to private companies that are actively avoiding paying tax, you think this is a great future for our NHS.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/21/ow-lucrative--deals-go-to-f...
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In reply to krikoman:
I would agree, but that's not Corbyns version. He does not like several portions of society, he even fires his followers up to target those people. Perhaps because he didn't exactly excel in education, despite no lack of opportunity, it's some how made him despise those who did graft at their A levels, then uni and then work at their career to make it a success.. who knows.
> When and why has socialism become a dirty word, surely as society in which we all care for each other is one to be strived towards.
I would agree, but that's not Corbyns version. He does not like several portions of society, he even fires his followers up to target those people. Perhaps because he didn't exactly excel in education, despite no lack of opportunity, it's some how made him despise those who did graft at their A levels, then uni and then work at their career to make it a success.. who knows.
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In reply to krikoman:
As has been shown on recent threads, there are plenty left leaning Corbyn fans on here who love their tax dodging multi nationals... Amazon etc.. The left are in the main a bunch of hypocrites.
> meanwhile we're pissing public money away to private companies that are actively avoiding paying tax,
As has been shown on recent threads, there are plenty left leaning Corbyn fans on here who love their tax dodging multi nationals... Amazon etc.. The left are in the main a bunch of hypocrites.
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In reply to summo:
And yet the Labour party are for doing away with tuition fees, don't quite match with your badly painted image, does it?
> I would agree, but that's not Corbyns version. He does not like several portions of society, he even fires his followers up to target those people. Perhaps because he didn't exactly excel in education, despite no lack of opportunity, it's some how made him despise those who did graft at their A levels, then uni and then work at their career to make it a success.. who knows.
And yet the Labour party are for doing away with tuition fees, don't quite match with your badly painted image, does it?
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In reply to jonfun21:
Couldn't agree more. Google the 'Overton Window'. It has been shifted heavily since around 1983!
> "I don't think that he is offering Socialism - just a rebalancing of a mixed economy"
> Its interesting how many Labour policies are being described by the press as "radical left wing" or "hard left" for example:
> - Properly funding the NHS
> - Running a rail system for benefit of rail users
> - Running utilities for the benefit of people using them
> - Housing that people can actually afford
> Granted there are some more extreme measures than this being floated - but its hard to see the above examples as "socialist revolution"
> This reaction is perhaps more reflective of how far right/market economy the UK has become vs. others (excepting the USA etc) so anything most would view as a moderate change is suddenly seen as extreme/radical.
Couldn't agree more. Google the 'Overton Window'. It has been shifted heavily since around 1983!
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In reply to summo:
.......but a lot of people who did graft at their A-levels, went to uni and have made their careers a sucess are supportive of these type of policies (especially scrapping tuition fees)
A case in point being myself!
.......but a lot of people who did graft at their A-levels, went to uni and have made their careers a sucess are supportive of these type of policies (especially scrapping tuition fees)
A case in point being myself!
Post edited at 14:05
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In reply to krikoman:
The Labour party started tuition fees. I think Corbyn hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own. I think he is bitter and jealous. Many of his cronies just have double standards, coming from elite back grounds and now sending their own kids to private school, then stand in parliament taking about being in touch with the common man.
> And yet the Labour party are for doing away with tuition fees, don't quite match with your badly painted image, does it?
The Labour party started tuition fees. I think Corbyn hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own. I think he is bitter and jealous. Many of his cronies just have double standards, coming from elite back grounds and now sending their own kids to private school, then stand in parliament taking about being in touch with the common man.
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In reply to summo:
"I think Corbyn hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own"
....and policies to improve education, reduce barriers to social mobility from tuition fees clearly point towards someone wanting to stop people obtaining wealth through hard graft???
As opposed to cutting public educations budgets, increases charges on territory education which are definitely designed to help the majority of people.
"I think Corbyn hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own"
....and policies to improve education, reduce barriers to social mobility from tuition fees clearly point towards someone wanting to stop people obtaining wealth through hard graft???
As opposed to cutting public educations budgets, increases charges on territory education which are definitely designed to help the majority of people.
Post edited at 14:12
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In reply to jonfun21:
I would agree, it would be better to scrap them, but it's a question of funding and everything else he wants to fund. Everyone wants better x and y, it's a question of where the money comes from.
The Scottish system is interesting. Free unis, but there is a limit on places for Scots students and the entry bar is higher. They currently don't have any cap on fee paying English students though with no bar at all. Scotland also has lower attendance per capita at uni now.
> .......but a lot of people who did graft at their A-levels, went to uni and have made their careers a sucess are supportive of these type of policies (especially scrapping tuition fees)
> A case in point being myself!
> A case in point being myself!
I would agree, it would be better to scrap them, but it's a question of funding and everything else he wants to fund. Everyone wants better x and y, it's a question of where the money comes from.
The Scottish system is interesting. Free unis, but there is a limit on places for Scots students and the entry bar is higher. They currently don't have any cap on fee paying English students though with no bar at all. Scotland also has lower attendance per capita at uni now.
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In reply to summo:
Money comes from taxing people more (not excessively, but some increases) and clamping down on avoidance.
Ultimately you get what you pay for.....people want a great NHS, schools, universities etc. you have to put more money into the system.
At least Labour were honest going into the election that taxes would have to rise for some.
Dealing with excessive profiteering will also help balance this (i.e. reducing utility bills, train costs etc)
Money comes from taxing people more (not excessively, but some increases) and clamping down on avoidance.
Ultimately you get what you pay for.....people want a great NHS, schools, universities etc. you have to put more money into the system.
At least Labour were honest going into the election that taxes would have to rise for some.
Dealing with excessive profiteering will also help balance this (i.e. reducing utility bills, train costs etc)
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In reply to jonfun21:
They promised 95% they could have better everything without paying more tax. Stuff of dreams. Only the lib dems who I voted for said they'd raise tax for everyone, because that's what it would take.
> At least Labour were honest going into the election that taxes would have to rise for some.
They promised 95% they could have better everything without paying more tax. Stuff of dreams. Only the lib dems who I voted for said they'd raise tax for everyone, because that's what it would take.
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In reply to summo:
Fair challenge, partial honesty rather than total honesty I guess!
I voted tactically (first time ever) which meant I didn't vote LD this time.......as a result any party promising PR would defintely get my vote.
Fair challenge, partial honesty rather than total honesty I guess!
I voted tactically (first time ever) which meant I didn't vote LD this time.......as a result any party promising PR would defintely get my vote.
Post edited at 14:45
In reply to summo:
What makes you think this? I ask becuase it is dangerously close to the dog-whistle politics and clumsy stereotyping spouted by The Mail, Sun and Express.
> I think Corbyn hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own. I think he is bitter and jealous.
What makes you think this? I ask becuase it is dangerously close to the dog-whistle politics and clumsy stereotyping spouted by The Mail, Sun and Express.
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In reply to krikoman:
Which they, err, what's the word I'm looking for?
Ah, yes, introduced. That's the word!
> And yet the Labour party are for doing away with tuition fees, don't quite match with your badly painted image, does it?
Which they, err, what's the word I'm looking for?
Ah, yes, introduced. That's the word!
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In reply to Shani:
The rhetoric of him, his shadow cabinet, union backers, momentum supporters..
> What makes you think this? I ask becuase it is dangerously close to the dog-whistle politics and clumsy stereotyping spouted by The Mail, Sun and Express.
The rhetoric of him, his shadow cabinet, union backers, momentum supporters..
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In reply to summo:
I am having trouble reconciling this as an explanation for your thought that "Corbyn hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own".
Can you give an explicit example?
> The rhetoric of him, his shadow cabinet, union backers, momentum supporters..
I am having trouble reconciling this as an explanation for your thought that "Corbyn hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own".
Can you give an explicit example?
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In reply to Shani:
Do you frequent Facebook? It's hard not to experience the bitter condemnation of anyone who's made something of themselves and has the temerity not to vote for Corbyn's vision.
> I am having trouble reconciling this as an explanation for your thought that "Corbyn hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own".
> Can you give an explicit example?
Do you frequent Facebook? It's hard not to experience the bitter condemnation of anyone who's made something of themselves and has the temerity not to vote for Corbyn's vision.
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In reply to pasbury: oh the irony - Tories complaining about personality, then flocking around Boris 'Mr Policy' Johnson.
Still compared to the current glorious leader my vacuum cleaner looks charismatic - strong and stable!
Still compared to the current glorious leader my vacuum cleaner looks charismatic - strong and stable!
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In reply to Hat Dude:
The tories and dangerous extremist zealots, currently but I don't see any idol worship of their leader, as with Corbyn. In fact, I don't really see a leader at all.
> Unlike the Tories?
The tories and dangerous extremist zealots, currently but I don't see any idol worship of their leader, as with Corbyn. In fact, I don't really see a leader at all.
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In reply to BnB:
I don't really 'do' Facebook. But you are a bright chap and would be aware of the problem of both 'self-selection'/ statistical significance, and black swans.
Whatever the the opinions of this rabid group you mention, i still fail in reconciling this as an explanation for the assertion that "CORBYN hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own"
I don't really 'do' Facebook. But you are a bright chap and would be aware of the problem of both 'self-selection'/ statistical significance, and black swans.
Whatever the the opinions of this rabid group you mention, i still fail in reconciling this as an explanation for the assertion that "CORBYN hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own"
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In reply to Shani:
I agree JC hasn't personally appeared on my feed, but he very clearly condones the online behaviour of Momentum which is the primary source of the bile. And why wouldn't he, as it serves him well? But his acceptance of their divisive strategy is a very real endorsement.
> I don't really 'do' Facebook. But you are a bright chap and would be aware of the problem of both 'self-selection'/ statistical significance, and black swans.
> Whatever the the opinions of this rabid group you mention, i still fail in reconciling this as an explanation for the assertion that "CORBYN hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own"
I agree JC hasn't personally appeared on my feed, but he very clearly condones the online behaviour of Momentum which is the primary source of the bile. And why wouldn't he, as it serves him well? But his acceptance of their divisive strategy is a very real endorsement.
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In reply to BnB:
I agree to a point - but I'm not sure how one can micro-manage one's supporters. The lobbyists in the HoC worry me more than anything I've seen from Momentum.
I know several Corbynistas and they are absolutely sound people who have chosen to become politically active because of him. I agree with them on several policy areas, but (as I've posted regularly on UKC), I tend to focus on policy than personality.
Just to add, if you or anyone can post a link that supports the assertion "CORBYN hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own", i will appreciate it and i will follow it up.
> I agree JC hasn't personally appeared on my feed, but he very clearly condones the online behaviour of Momentum which is the primary source of the bile. And why wouldn't he, as it serves him well? But his acceptance of their divisive strategy is a very real endorsement.
I agree to a point - but I'm not sure how one can micro-manage one's supporters. The lobbyists in the HoC worry me more than anything I've seen from Momentum.
I know several Corbynistas and they are absolutely sound people who have chosen to become politically active because of him. I agree with them on several policy areas, but (as I've posted regularly on UKC), I tend to focus on policy than personality.
Just to add, if you or anyone can post a link that supports the assertion "CORBYN hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own", i will appreciate it and i will follow it up.
Post edited at 18:17
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In reply to Shani:
You are Margaret Hodge MP and I claim my devalued tenner!!
> Just to add, if you or anyone can post a link that supports the assertion "CORBYN hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own", i will appreciate it and i will follow it up.
You are Margaret Hodge MP and I claim my devalued tenner!!
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In reply to Shani:
That's the bit that I find really weird and occasionally worrying though.
But for many "Corbynistas" it's the opposite way around.
> I know several Corbynistas and they are absolutely sound people who have chosen to become politically active because of him.
That's the bit that I find really weird and occasionally worrying though.
> I tend to focus on policy than personality.
But for many "Corbynistas" it's the opposite way around.
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In reply to TobyA:
I use the term 'Corbynisya' as others use the phrase Blairite, Thatcherite, Moggies etc.... One man's cult is another man's "natural leader". I see no problem with someone inspiring others to become politically engaged. In a democracy it is odd you'd think otherwise.
Those i know could robustly defend policy.
> That's the bit that I find really weird and occasionally worrying though.
> But for many "Corbynistas" it's the opposite way around.
I use the term 'Corbynisya' as others use the phrase Blairite, Thatcherite, Moggies etc.... One man's cult is another man's "natural leader". I see no problem with someone inspiring others to become politically engaged. In a democracy it is odd you'd think otherwise.
Those i know could robustly defend policy.
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In reply to TobyA:
I don't think it's so odd that people might become active because of Corbyn. They see him as genuinely principled and 'of the left'. Young people are always leftwing and now they can see it as futuristic rather than broken.
Re. the Overton window, I was quite convinced it couldn't move left, or at least not through Corbyn's influence but I 'm prepared to be proved wrong. Trouble is though, recapturing old traditional left voters (in the absence of a clear Brexit policy), isn't necessarily difficult with an anti-austerity message. Winning Basildon etc. is different though. He really needs to work the young vote very well and ensure he keeps at least some angry middle-ground remainers. Anyway, maybe the maybot will stay her stretch and the fizz will go. Impossible to predict with brexit providing the shifting sands on which all parties have to try and park their policy lorries.
> That's the bit that I find really weird and occasionally worrying though.
I don't think it's so odd that people might become active because of Corbyn. They see him as genuinely principled and 'of the left'. Young people are always leftwing and now they can see it as futuristic rather than broken.
Re. the Overton window, I was quite convinced it couldn't move left, or at least not through Corbyn's influence but I 'm prepared to be proved wrong. Trouble is though, recapturing old traditional left voters (in the absence of a clear Brexit policy), isn't necessarily difficult with an anti-austerity message. Winning Basildon etc. is different though. He really needs to work the young vote very well and ensure he keeps at least some angry middle-ground remainers. Anyway, maybe the maybot will stay her stretch and the fizz will go. Impossible to predict with brexit providing the shifting sands on which all parties have to try and park their policy lorries.
In reply to summo:
Again you can think what you like, it doesn't make it true.
You're sure people who have money can't be in touch with the common man? Why not?
I'm quite well off but I know what a lot of my mates are having to deal with?
> The Labour party started tuition fees. I think Corbyn hates people who have wealth through hard graft of their own. I think he is bitter and jealous. Many of his cronies just have double standards, coming from elite back grounds and now sending their own kids to private school, then stand in parliament taking about being in touch with the common man.
Again you can think what you like, it doesn't make it true.
You're sure people who have money can't be in touch with the common man? Why not?
I'm quite well off but I know what a lot of my mates are having to deal with?
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In reply to krikoman:
There is understanding what it's like and then there is understanding.
Remember lady Nugee's gaff about white van man and England flags?
There is understanding what it's like and then there is understanding.
Remember lady Nugee's gaff about white van man and England flags?
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In reply to MG:
I was thinking historically about the cult of Thatcher and the way she was fawned over by Conservatives and still is
> The tories and dangerous extremist zealots, currently but I don't see any idol worship of their leader, as with Corbyn. In fact, I don't really see a leader at all.
I was thinking historically about the cult of Thatcher and the way she was fawned over by Conservatives and still is
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In reply to Hat Dude:
I have always found the 5 minute standing ovation thing a bit wierd, how can anyone say something that good?
Though in the case of Thatcher she had actually done something before people fawned over her rather than just said what she would do if he ever got the chance. And people didn't walk about in Thatcher T shirts and scarves chanting and singing her name her name like football fans.
With Corbyn its gone beyond enthusiasm, its become mindless idolatry and reminds me a bit of this
youtube.com/watch?v=ROKXlvYMKQc&
> I was thinking historically about the cult of Thatcher and the way she was fawned over by Conservatives and still is >
I have always found the 5 minute standing ovation thing a bit wierd, how can anyone say something that good?
Though in the case of Thatcher she had actually done something before people fawned over her rather than just said what she would do if he ever got the chance. And people didn't walk about in Thatcher T shirts and scarves chanting and singing her name her name like football fans.
With Corbyn its gone beyond enthusiasm, its become mindless idolatry and reminds me a bit of this
youtube.com/watch?v=ROKXlvYMKQc&
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In reply to pec:
You should probably bear in mind that a lot of new found labour voters don't have that clip in living memory - only a distant 'new labour' of the Blair era, which was nothing more than a repackaging of the status quo.
A little part of me would like to see the most wealthy people he has known become destitute overnight, and see how they vote, and how their political opinions change a while down the line.
You should probably bear in mind that a lot of new found labour voters don't have that clip in living memory - only a distant 'new labour' of the Blair era, which was nothing more than a repackaging of the status quo.
A little part of me would like to see the most wealthy people he has known become destitute overnight, and see how they vote, and how their political opinions change a while down the line.
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In reply to pasbury:
The problem for Corbylabour is that their base has changed. Whereas before they were supported and could rely on the working class man and woman, and their unionisation, now they are reliant on the middle-class "people with issues" brigade.
As I have quoted here before, the last time I was back in South wales I was at a pub attached to the council estate I grew up in, with old mates. Politics was much avoided, but one quote stuck in my memory; "Labour? They're all for lesbians and immigrants these days, not for us!"
The problem for Corbylabour is that their base has changed. Whereas before they were supported and could rely on the working class man and woman, and their unionisation, now they are reliant on the middle-class "people with issues" brigade.
As I have quoted here before, the last time I was back in South wales I was at a pub attached to the council estate I grew up in, with old mates. Politics was much avoided, but one quote stuck in my memory; "Labour? They're all for lesbians and immigrants these days, not for us!"
Post edited at 23:30
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In reply to Big Ger:
Wages have been an issue with Corbyn. That's why he is being careful in pacing himself in the Brexit argument because there is a conflict of interest between driving down wages and freedom of movement of EU. He's got to find that compromising ground between trade and wages.
Not easy. But I'd still vote for him as best option and most considered thinker.
Wages have been an issue with Corbyn. That's why he is being careful in pacing himself in the Brexit argument because there is a conflict of interest between driving down wages and freedom of movement of EU. He's got to find that compromising ground between trade and wages.
Not easy. But I'd still vote for him as best option and most considered thinker.
Post edited at 10:30
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