UKC

For me, whilst the essence of climbing is probably friction, the essence of trad climbing may well be decision-making. When you’re feeling a bit out there and increasingly lonely, as your second disappears below you, it can sometimes be hard to keep your confidence and commitment up.

This is a real issue for me, but I find that it helps to have a few axioms ready to bring to mind to get me out of a pinch – that is, a ‘statement or proposition which is regarded as being established or accepted’, which ‘serves as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments.’ Or, more simply, some homespun truth that serves to calm you or give you a kick up the arse, as the case may be.

So, these are the ones that come to my mind (nothing particularly original, I’m afraid):
- Trust your feet
- Don’t place bad gear
- Don’t hang around
- Get your gear whilst you can
- Climb to climb, not to place gear
- Don’t stop on the crux
- Deal with what’s there, not what you want to be there
- Don’t climb too far above your gear and you’ll be ok
- If you’ve got good gear, go!
- Keep looking ahead
- Keep breathing!
- Keep making upward progress!

This last one was the response of a slightly exasperated second to my dithering, and is now firmly internalised – not so much as words of inspiration as a self-reprimand. But, when it’s my turn to be the exasperated second I try to remember "every climbing partnership has its own speed ([aside]…and ours is not going to set any records…)” In connection with climbing partnerships, another good one might be: "be kind to your second, you'll miss them when they're gone" (with apologies to Mary Schmich).

So, what do you whisper to yourself in a moment of desperation, and what axioms do you hold onto as eternal truths, as your grapple with uncertainty?
C

In reply to C Witter:

Warning: the first person to state 'the predictable' gets shot!

In reply to C Witter:

"If in doubt..."


... I think everyone knows the rest.

In reply to Fraser:

f*ck!

In reply to C Witter:

Or "When it's thin..."

In reply to Fraser:

The leader must not fart around.
Keep at least 0 points of contact at all times.

In reply to C Witter:

If in doubt, run it out

In reply to GarethSL:

When in doubt...

...run it out?

...gibber wildly?


When it's thin...

...get summit in?

...curse yourself that you didn't bring small cams and some micro-nuts?

In reply to C Witter:

If it's enough, use it.

Looking at it won't make it any easier.

In reply to C Witter:

Never warm up on a HS.

In reply to C Witter:
In my book, the most important proverb of trad. is: "Take a headlamp!"

Second most important: "Learn to use what you've got on your harness, anyway. Carry less." (Edit: one of my mates translates this to: "nobody needs a gri-gri on trad.")

And number three: "Always remember that the first ascent was probably done in boots, with two karabiners and a sling. What are you whimpering about?"

In reply to C Witter:

Some more serious ones...

(mostly mine refer to ice climbing but are probably applicable to most types of climbing)

- It's always steeper than it looks.
- It's always harder that it looks.
- It's always thinner that it looks (normally applies to routes described as 'good' early-season condition).
- Rule #1, wear a helmet.
- Rule #1, don't fall off.
- Rule #1, don't follow people up the same line.
- Head torches mandatory.
- Place screws in honour of every person who has fallen off ice climbing and can now no longer ice climb, even on easy ground.
- Slow is smooth smooth is fast (to quote blackhawk down).
- Every movement should be deliberate.
- Check the weather forecast.

In reply to nniff:


Not looking at it certainly won't!

In reply to C Witter:



'I wouldn't fall off it at ground level'

which is a bit like the 'Top rope' mantra

In reply to Lemony:

Not what you mean, I know, but I do often say to myself: "Start as you mean to go on" and begin on something of my grade. It always seems to me harder to go on to something you know will be harder than the last route... Besides that, "trad climbing always takes longer than you expect" - and if you're not careful you never get onto the route you're keen for.

I also hold it as a truth universally acknowledged that whenever you get complacent about a climb you'll end up finding it a complete bastard.

In reply to Xharlie:


Could this axiom be shortened to: "Nobody needs a gri-gri"? ;p

In reply to C Witter:

Owt is better than Nowt!

But more seriously
One I always have to tell myself when I'm stuck is to watch out for tunnel vision.
Nothing worse than backing off a move and having your second point out the massive jug just to the left or right that you missed.
Can't think of a pithy axiom to condense this into though.

In reply to C Witter:

"Smile - Climb to the holds."
"If there's no gear - then there's no gear, make a decision."

In reply to C Witter:

Divide each pitch into rests and runners.

In reply to C Witter:

If you can't reach the holds, climb up to them.

In reply to C Witter:

either "Don't Panic" or (more often in winter soloing) "This would be a Particularly Bad place to lose your nerve"

In reply to C Witter:

if you can reach it, you can use it.

In reply to C Witter:

Downclimbing is a skill too...

In reply to C Witter:
One I use before I've even started climbing is if you're trying to make the rock fit the description you're in the wrong place.

In reply to Bob Kemp:

My ice climbing version - "Climbing zone, protection zone; climbing zone, protection zone."

In other words. "Stop mincing around, you great Jesse, and get on with it before your arms fall off!" which works for rock climbing too.

The other ice climbing one is 'If in doubt, think in triangles'.

'A fifi hook is a weak ice climber's best friend' (especially those BD ones with the little ejection handle loop already fitted - they really ought to do those in yellow and black).

In reply to mal_meech:

dam right!!!

In reply to C Witter:

you only die once.

In reply to C Witter:

You want it to be difficult, that's why you're here. Enjoy it.

In reply to C Witter:

This may be slightly off the point.
When you've decided that this is the day you're going to push the boat out on a route at or close to your limit, get straight on to it. No warm up route because if you dont cruise the warm up it'll put you off the main event as you'll decide you're off form that day. You probably aren't.

In reply to C Witter:

Axioms were those useless camming devices around for a short while in the early 90's?

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Hmmm, a lot of failed onsights have been a result of this approach!

In reply to nniff:

Good adaptation.


Is that 'maintain three points of contact' in disguise, or something more Zen?

In reply to Bob Kemp:

It's to do with body position - feet not too close together, axes ideally halfway inbetween.

In reply to Bob Kemp:

It's definitely related to the three points of contact idea but it's also saying that the best shape for your three points of contact is generally a specific isosceles triangle. This UKC article expands on the idea: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4316

In reply to Luke90:

Thanks - kind of obvious really now you (and Michael) have pointed it out.
BTW, and moving off-topic (sorry), in that article I notice it talks about centre of mass, which I presume is similar to, or the same as, centre of gravity. Is this used nowadays as being a more technically accurate term?

In reply to Bob Kemp:

Both terms are still used, though I've always thought centre of mass was more common in general use. For most practical purposes, they're essentially the same thing. They only differ significantly when the gravitational field is significantly different between one part of the object and another. So for an ice climber, their centre of mass will be in the same location as their centre of gravity. If you scaled them up to be several-thousand kilometres tall, their centre of mass would stay in a similar position (scaled) but their centre of gravity would be closer to the planet (because the weight of each kilogram of their legs would be greater than the weight of each kilogram of their head, due to the Earth's gravitational field weakening with distance).

In reply to C Witter:

"Relax. Give it a good coat of looking at."

In reply to Luke90:

Interesting - thanks.

In reply to Rog Wilko:


Or, do warm up, but don't do it by taking ages onsighting a route of a slightly lower grade.

In reply to C Witter:

I have two:

1. When I'm a bit scared and it's run out or looks hard I weigh up the gear the position and everything else and if i think rationally the correct thing to do is push on, I mutter the words "f%$k it!" to myself which is a cue that going now is the right thing to do.

2. When I'm a bit scared and it's run out or looks hard I weigh up the gear the position and everything else and if i think my desire to onsight the route tips the scale i will let my belayer know "i'm just going to go and have a look". This normally leads to ending up in a committed position, see point 1.

In reply to C Witter:

If I wait long enough.... geological time will bring the top down to me.

In reply to C Witter:

"It's only <tech grade>, you can do it!"

In reply to C Witter:

If you’re going to siege (climb up and down to a rest repeatedly, trying sequences) the crux, then don’t rush the siege and calm down.

Pain is temporary, onsights (or the loss of) are forever.

Embrace the phantom chalk (when you aren’t wearing your chalkbag but keep dipping anyway)

In reply to wercat:


Cracker! I love the bathos. "It was all getting a bit thin, so I had to have a stern word with myself before carrying on..."

In reply to Rog Wilko:


Horses for courses - I know many folks would disagree with this, but I've found it to be the case for me - the slightest difficulty on the warm-up route has completely blown my psych in the past.

In reply to C Witter:

During the countless abseil sessions I have supervised I learned that if you say 'Don't' (try to hold on to the descender), (put your foot there), (take your weight off the rope) then they will, immediately. In times of high stress we don't seem to hear the don't and just act on the instruction. I do have a vague memory of some research done around this but that's all. I would assume that this probably works upon yourself to some degree so maybe try and positivise? the phrases to decrease the chances of desperately hanging on to the crux for ages gibbering high above crap gear. I tell myself to sort it out and then talk the now semi-deaf idiot through the process required. I'm used to only using positive clear step by step language on others so using it on myself is easy, I'd guess it needs a bit of practise to do in extremis if you haven't. Works for me, usually with a few reminding sprinkles of 'Come on nobhead, sort it'

In reply to SenzuBean:


very useful!

In reply to Mark Kemball:


I can't remember a warm-up route ever going badly for me, I was so psyched up for the main challenge. It had the huge benefit of loosening up the limbs, and increasing confidence. If the warm-up route had gone badly then of course it meant one wasn't up to the main challenge. And of course, the warm-up had to be at least a grade easier than the main route. E.g. before doing Vector I stormed up Kestrel Cracks.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Interesting how this seems to be splitting folk into two groups. I notice equal number of likes and dislikes.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Climbing is such a head game! For me, it's not even a case of the warm up route going badly, it's more if I find it the slightest bit difficult. If that happens, my mind starts to go into a spin - this should be easy, I'm climbing badly, no way am I up for ... today etc. So now, no warm up routes for me.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

The less I know about a route before I start, the more likely I am to get up it.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Far better to redpoint than not do it at all though.

In reply to Mark Kemball:


Yes, same for me, really. The warm-up has to go very well indeed. But for me it was always a vital test of 'was I really going well enough?' to do the main challenge of the day. I think I failed on Left Wall mostly because I didn't have warm-up. I should have done something like Noah's Warning first.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


That's a great point, with more than an element of truth to it. Somehow, the less one knows about it, the clearer one's head is (of preconceptions, little tricks you've been told that might help you, etc), the more you're driven back on your own 'nous'. I think my best maxim with such a route, when it was right at one's limit, [another to add to the list on this thread] was always: 'Forget the grade; simply try to climb this route better than you've ever climbed before.' Then I was in with a very good chance.

In reply to C Witter:

it's definitely not something you'd say to someone else at the sharp end!

In reply to C Witter:
A useful misquote:

"Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over and through me, until it is nothing and only I remain." All knowingly said, in the sense of Bokononism. It links to the Rock Warriors Way which has important advice I know on how to approach climbing with risk near a limit; although Dave's review rightly points out the lessons are hard to learn without assistance.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=434

If you want a axiom, maybe try this: axioms can help but don't follow them too far

In reply to C Witter:

my axioms.

climb overhangs because there's less to hit on the way down.
once past halfway one can afford to run-it-out.

In reply to Offwidth:

I was going to do that but couldn't muster up the energy!

I have actually genuinely used a curtailed version of it, "being scared isn't going to help this" on a near-misadventure on Initiation Slabs at St Davids - me and wilkie14c on Aries VS 4c, exacerbating the run-out nature of the route by also stupidly doing it on a folded 60m half rope. Me leading. No way to reach the belay stake...and I imagine you know the nature of this route! Eep.

These days I just (mis?)quote Edward Woodward at the rock.

"Killing me won't bring back your apples!"

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Didn't know the Bene Gesserit got out on the crag!

Oh, hang on: Litany Against Fear (6c+)

In reply to ianstevens:


Agreed, but that's not the point!

In reply to mutt:

Reminds me of something Don Whillans reportedly said, when asked "Is there any point where you feel fear when you're climbing?" "Aye, and it's pretty close to the ground!"

In reply to C Witter:

My biggest dilemma in trad climbing when you were tiring was did you try to put in gear, but loose more strength whilst you are doing it, where it's difficult to find a good placement? Or do you keep going whilst you can, becoming more and more aware of the length of the run out behind you?

Common sense always said the first if possible, but sometimes things became so fraught that I found it easier to go on until I reached more friendly ground.

How I relished that feeling of relief when I finally managed to get in a good runner.

I remember in the early 2000s thinking I was going to die on an HVS on Lundy, when I couldn't find a placement at the crux, and becoming more and more stressed by the panicky calls from my second to "get something in!" It took a lot of will power not to let him panic me, but I managed to keep control, do the crux and press on until eventually things eased.

In reply to Trangia:


One of the great moments in trad climbing! And though one can emphasise with your second on that route, shouting up like that definitely seems pointless, if not counter-productive.

In reply to C Witter:

"This isn't too high... maybe just a sore ankle if i mess this up!"

"This is really high... lots of gear before the deck!"

In reply to GarethSL:





Maybe I'm just on the more scared side of the spectrum, but those two are usually the opposite for me.

In reply to alanblyth:

Yes - I frequently tell my partner, when I'm trying to reassure her about a day off climbing: "don't worry, the worst that could happen is I maybe break my legs."

I'm not sure why broken legs come so readily to mind...

Nor how reassuring that statement is...

In reply to C Witter:

One I've borrowed from kayaking;

"Go quickly when you can, so you can go slowly when you need to"

In reply to wercat:

In reply to charliesdad:

Sound advice that!

In reply to C Witter:

As an old girlfriend said to me -" you look a long way up there " !!

Sorry, wrong thread...

In reply to C Witter:


Self determination? Risk assessment? Not friction though.

In reply to Deadeye:

You could say the essence of climbing is movement over rock. And if there was no friction at all this would be nigh on impossible.

In reply to charliesdad:



Also worth remembering R´ebuffat's succinct notion of "unhurried speed".

In reply to Deadeye:

I wondered if anyone would pick up on that! I knew it was a pretty debatable statement and was surprised that no-one had questioned it so far.

I was thinking about how many knots rely on friction and it got me to thinking that both rock movement and belaying, as well as some gear placements (e.g. cams), rely on friction. Meanwhile, a more metaphorical take on 'friction' seems quite apt for describing the difficulty of ascent, the fraying of the nerves, the drive to get out... the conversations on this forum, etc. But, then, I'm sure you could pick "gravity" or "desire" or "rock" or "sex, death and rock and roll" or whatever as your 'essence'

In reply to C Witter:

'Always two good bits of gear between me and the ground'

Before putting in gear - and especially when getting pumped and scared: ' Find the best resting position, relax, breathe'. That's what I'm thinking at any rate.

In reply to Max factor:


This was all I could think off seeing “safety third” at reel rock last night...