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https://youtu.be/cn8ERTaXOrw?t=5m53s
Was trying to enjoy this video, but just found the bolts super distracting. Is that really how many bolts are needed? Ironically Sharma badly injured his chin hitting one of the bolts on a fall, not really surprised!
(not sure if the link is working, go to 5:48 on the video to see what I'm talking about)
Post edited at 00:12
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
You can skip a couple of them when you lead it if you prefer
He didn't even bother to top out either, what a punter!
You can skip a couple of them when you lead it if you prefer
He didn't even bother to top out either, what a punter!
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
It might be a foreshortening effect, the route is only really filmed from above which makes the bolts looks really close together but perhaps if you could see it from a distance they might have a more sensible spacing?
It might be a foreshortening effect, the route is only really filmed from above which makes the bolts looks really close together but perhaps if you could see it from a distance they might have a more sensible spacing?
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
Ignoring what Chris Sharma is up to. I see plenty of routes like this in the low grades all around UK. What annoys me about them is the waste of bolt fund money, thinking about all the routes where there are dodgy bolts and then in other places there are lines 2 foot away from each other, each line bolted every 3' starting 6' off the ground. And then perversely some of these routes share lower off gear when you could very easily have spaced the bolts out properly and had a few spares for lowering off.
Ignoring what Chris Sharma is up to. I see plenty of routes like this in the low grades all around UK. What annoys me about them is the waste of bolt fund money, thinking about all the routes where there are dodgy bolts and then in other places there are lines 2 foot away from each other, each line bolted every 3' starting 6' off the ground. And then perversely some of these routes share lower off gear when you could very easily have spaced the bolts out properly and had a few spares for lowering off.
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
I had a similar impression but I did wonder about the effect of foreshortening as Dandan mentioned.
In general terms the bolting of routes in this country is often dysfunctional. The problem is with so little sport climbing and new routing available in the UK many climbers are somewhat clueless when it comes to bolting. I think climbers probably need to have some experience sport climbing in Europe to appreciate well bolted routes. Sometimes we have bolts that are so close together you may as well be top roping. Other times the first bolt is high and difficult to reach you need a clip stick to reach it. Matters get more complicated when people try to place bolts so they can't be reached on adjacent trad routes too. Having said that it's certainly not all bad and many climbers do make a great job of bolting routes over here too. Maybe it's just down to being thoughtful and conscientious from the outset.
I had a similar impression but I did wonder about the effect of foreshortening as Dandan mentioned.
In general terms the bolting of routes in this country is often dysfunctional. The problem is with so little sport climbing and new routing available in the UK many climbers are somewhat clueless when it comes to bolting. I think climbers probably need to have some experience sport climbing in Europe to appreciate well bolted routes. Sometimes we have bolts that are so close together you may as well be top roping. Other times the first bolt is high and difficult to reach you need a clip stick to reach it. Matters get more complicated when people try to place bolts so they can't be reached on adjacent trad routes too. Having said that it's certainly not all bad and many climbers do make a great job of bolting routes over here too. Maybe it's just down to being thoughtful and conscientious from the outset.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
I think if you are a low grade climbing starting outdoors you will appreicate having the bolts close together.
In a lot of cases the problem with the 'badly bolted' route next to you is that if the better bolted route is new and the person working on that route wouldn't dare to touch the old route for fear of getting abuse. I'm afraid there are groups within the climbing community who are very dogmatic and get upset if anyone dares to change something.
> Ignoring what Chris Sharma is up to. I see plenty of routes like this in the low grades all around UK. What annoys me about them is the waste of bolt fund money, thinking about all the routes where there are dodgy bolts and then in other places there are lines 2 foot away from each other, each line bolted every 3' starting 6' off the ground. And then perversely some of these routes share lower off gear when you could very easily have spaced the bolts out properly and had a few spares for lowering off.
I think if you are a low grade climbing starting outdoors you will appreicate having the bolts close together.
In a lot of cases the problem with the 'badly bolted' route next to you is that if the better bolted route is new and the person working on that route wouldn't dare to touch the old route for fear of getting abuse. I'm afraid there are groups within the climbing community who are very dogmatic and get upset if anyone dares to change something.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
I probably won't climb it, but I may aid it placing gear in the numerous surrounding cracks
I probably won't climb it, but I may aid it placing gear in the numerous surrounding cracks
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In reply to Dandan:
Yeah I considered that, but the QD's behind don't look any smaller which you would expect if that was the case.
Yeah I considered that, but the QD's behind don't look any smaller which you would expect if that was the case.
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
If you look at the original ascent video of Ethan he misses a load too... ie. he doesn't even have draws on the bolts he misses.
If you look at the original ascent video of Ethan he misses a load too... ie. he doesn't even have draws on the bolts he misses.
In reply to Dandan:
A little later in the video there is a shot from the side and they are really close (looks even closer than from above), I have bigger run-outs at some indoor walls!!
A little later in the video there is a shot from the side and they are really close (looks even closer than from above), I have bigger run-outs at some indoor walls!!
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In reply to gethin_allen:
I do think that lower grades climbs should be better bolted. Recently a friend asked me to recommend a good first 6b and the last one which I had done had a very run out third or fourth bolt where you could smash directly into a ledge if you dropped it with little for the belayer to do.
I found it strange how many 7s are very well bolted and there are some low 6s abd 5s which are pretty dangerous. Generally less experienced tend to go on them and the terrain is such that a long fall can be hazardous. They are fine if you climb 7a of course, but definitely not if you're just starting to get into sport climbing.
I do think that lower grades climbs should be better bolted. Recently a friend asked me to recommend a good first 6b and the last one which I had done had a very run out third or fourth bolt where you could smash directly into a ledge if you dropped it with little for the belayer to do.
I found it strange how many 7s are very well bolted and there are some low 6s abd 5s which are pretty dangerous. Generally less experienced tend to go on them and the terrain is such that a long fall can be hazardous. They are fine if you climb 7a of course, but definitely not if you're just starting to get into sport climbing.
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
One of the comments about the video suggested that some of the bolts are used to help work the route.
Being a bumbly I have no idea if thus is true.
One of the comments about the video suggested that some of the bolts are used to help work the route.
Being a bumbly I have no idea if thus is true.
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
I surprised that that density of bolts was allowed by the local bolting committee.
I've always thought that when the density of bolts becomes that great that the route would have been better left as a top-rope (with the outward swings on coming off being more dramatic than mini-falls!)
I surprised that that density of bolts was allowed by the local bolting committee.
I've always thought that when the density of bolts becomes that great that the route would have been better left as a top-rope (with the outward swings on coming off being more dramatic than mini-falls!)
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In reply to zmv:
People bolting in the 7s are probably climbing hard, want the tick and know what they want. People putting up their 15 millionth 5+ for the sake of bolting something and putting their name on it probably don't care.
The main point is that better bolting doesn't always mean more bolts in all cases (it does in some cases), just better placement of bolts. Placing bolts so low that they are almost immediately useless (unless there's a really dodgy landing) and placing bolts every 3 foot when high up on a on a nice uncomplicated climb were the consequences of falling are not at all serious is just a waste of time, money and effort, and makes the route look cluttered and a mess.
> I do think that lower grades climbs should be better bolted. Recently a friend asked me to recommend a good first 6b and the last one which I had done had a very run out third or fourth bolt where you could smash directly into a ledge if you dropped it with little for the belayer to do.
> I found it strange how many 7s are very well bolted and there are some low 6s and 5s which are pretty dangerous. Generally less experienced tend to go on them and the terrain is such that a long fall can be hazardous. They are fine if you climb 7a of course, but definitely not if you're just starting to get into sport climbing.
People bolting in the 7s are probably climbing hard, want the tick and know what they want. People putting up their 15 millionth 5+ for the sake of bolting something and putting their name on it probably don't care.
The main point is that better bolting doesn't always mean more bolts in all cases (it does in some cases), just better placement of bolts. Placing bolts so low that they are almost immediately useless (unless there's a really dodgy landing) and placing bolts every 3 foot when high up on a on a nice uncomplicated climb were the consequences of falling are not at all serious is just a waste of time, money and effort, and makes the route look cluttered and a mess.
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
When I see the world's top climbers sucked into these contrived lines of safety steel I am really baffled. These safety trails surely have more in common with geriatic aids, such as stair lifts and hand-rails, than anything to do with adventure sports or an appreciation of the great outdoors or the environment in general.
Half of me hopes I am wrong. The other half thinks that, maybe, just maybe, it *is* time to reopen the tired old debate of the role of bolts in climbing.
When I see the world's top climbers sucked into these contrived lines of safety steel I am really baffled. These safety trails surely have more in common with geriatic aids, such as stair lifts and hand-rails, than anything to do with adventure sports or an appreciation of the great outdoors or the environment in general.
Half of me hopes I am wrong. The other half thinks that, maybe, just maybe, it *is* time to reopen the tired old debate of the role of bolts in climbing.
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
It does appear to be unusually closely bolted doesn't it?
Also: Djinns? I like Djinns, but I would have thought Petzl would give Chris Spirits?
(/SadGearGeek)
It does appear to be unusually closely bolted doesn't it?
Also: Djinns? I like Djinns, but I would have thought Petzl would give Chris Spirits?
(/SadGearGeek)
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In reply to John Stainforth:
Chris Sharma on a sport route and you're baffled?
> When I see the world's top climbers sucked into these contrived lines of safety steel I am really baffled
Chris Sharma on a sport route and you're baffled?
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In reply to baron:
Loads of hard routes have bolts closely packed together for ease in working the crux.
I had lunch underneath First round first minute one (perfect shady spot btw!) and gazed up to see that it looks similarly to indoor spacing mostly. Pretty much all of the bolts seem ultra hard to clip though.
The last 7c I was working the moves on, had a really close spacing on the crux bits as otherwise you'd just take a long fall into space and it'd be harder to work. The bits above or below were quite spicy though.
Loads of hard routes have bolts closely packed together for ease in working the crux.
I had lunch underneath First round first minute one (perfect shady spot btw!) and gazed up to see that it looks similarly to indoor spacing mostly. Pretty much all of the bolts seem ultra hard to clip though.
The last 7c I was working the moves on, had a really close spacing on the crux bits as otherwise you'd just take a long fall into space and it'd be harder to work. The bits above or below were quite spicy though.
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In reply to John Stainforth:
They have to be reasonably dense otherwise they simply break when fallen upon.
> No, I am baffled by the density of bolts. .
They have to be reasonably dense otherwise they simply break when fallen upon.
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In reply to Hugh Mongous:
The fervour with which the concept of densely packed bolts is being defended and the responses I am getting shows that I am seriously outnumbered. I'll leave the thread - obviously little room or desire for discussion here.
The fervour with which the concept of densely packed bolts is being defended and the responses I am getting shows that I am seriously outnumbered. I'll leave the thread - obviously little room or desire for discussion here.
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In reply to John Stainforth:
You don't seem to be explaining yourself very well. If you can explain what the problem with the bolts is then there's a discussion to be had. Comparing close bolts with a stair lift or hand rail isn't likely to start a good discussion is it? It's just silly.
> I'll leave the thread - obviously little room or desire for discussion here.
You don't seem to be explaining yourself very well. If you can explain what the problem with the bolts is then there's a discussion to be had. Comparing close bolts with a stair lift or hand rail isn't likely to start a good discussion is it? It's just silly.
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In reply to John Stainforth:
It looks like you failed to spot the invisible and unnecessary smiley face!
It looks like you failed to spot the invisible and unnecessary smiley face!
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
Doesn't this have lots of bolts because that's the only way to bolt an overhang? You clip the bolt you've placed last and the next one is placed as far as you can reach from the previous one. Ondra explained it once.
Doesn't this have lots of bolts because that's the only way to bolt an overhang? You clip the bolt you've placed last and the next one is placed as far as you can reach from the previous one. Ondra explained it once.
Post edited at 09:29
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In reply to John Stainforth:
I'm a keen sport climber even I agree that climb looks ridiculous.
There is absolutely no need for the bolts to be that close together.
Clip-sticks exist to help work hard sections without resorting to placing bolts that close.
With all those cracks, even if ground-up bolting was necessary you'd still not have to place so many bolts.
Without the benefit of seeing the route in detail and in it's entirety, frankly, it has the appearance of a line that would have been better as a very hard trad route.
As it is, the route looks to have been reduced for the convenience of, and to meet the ability of the first ascensionist. Chis Sharma should never be "highlighting" this route. And while he might, for all I know, be enjoying the climbing, I'd guess the reason he's filmed on the route might have more to do with interpersonal relationships than for sporting reasons.
I'm a keen sport climber even I agree that climb looks ridiculous.
There is absolutely no need for the bolts to be that close together.
Clip-sticks exist to help work hard sections without resorting to placing bolts that close.
With all those cracks, even if ground-up bolting was necessary you'd still not have to place so many bolts.
Without the benefit of seeing the route in detail and in it's entirety, frankly, it has the appearance of a line that would have been better as a very hard trad route.
As it is, the route looks to have been reduced for the convenience of, and to meet the ability of the first ascensionist. Chis Sharma should never be "highlighting" this route. And while he might, for all I know, be enjoying the climbing, I'd guess the reason he's filmed on the route might have more to do with interpersonal relationships than for sporting reasons.
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In reply to Pete Dangerous:
>"Doesn't this have lots of bolts because that's the only way to bolt an overhang?"
Not in the presence of those cracks. I'd be suprised if those couldn't be aid climbed to get the bolts in.
EDIT: I suspect the first ascensionist just couldn't be arsed with the aiding and took the lazy option of firing in a lot of bolts.
>"Doesn't this have lots of bolts because that's the only way to bolt an overhang?"
Not in the presence of those cracks. I'd be suprised if those couldn't be aid climbed to get the bolts in.
EDIT: I suspect the first ascensionist just couldn't be arsed with the aiding and took the lazy option of firing in a lot of bolts.
Post edited at 09:39
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In reply to JLS:
I suspect they are that close together because the bolting of a roof that big is almost impossible off an ab rope. If you have bolted an aid roof, with the best will in the world and legs like Usain Bolt (he he) drilling a hole more than 4 ft away is very hard.
If that is the reason for the close bolts, I personally would have removed some of them to leave just what is required for the sport route. Maybe they are left so people can try aid climbing up the fixed bolts. That's what people did on the main face of Malham for many years. (Takes an old fart to know this crap!)
I suspect they are that close together because the bolting of a roof that big is almost impossible off an ab rope. If you have bolted an aid roof, with the best will in the world and legs like Usain Bolt (he he) drilling a hole more than 4 ft away is very hard.
If that is the reason for the close bolts, I personally would have removed some of them to leave just what is required for the sport route. Maybe they are left so people can try aid climbing up the fixed bolts. That's what people did on the main face of Malham for many years. (Takes an old fart to know this crap!)
Post edited at 10:13
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In reply to JLS:
I can't help but feel there's an awful lot of disrespect floating round on this thread.
Bolting overhangs is hard work. Bolting granite is hard work. There's a pretty strong physical incentive not to place any more than necessary - aiding on gear would be by far the easier option, so the fact it looks a lot like a ground up bolting ladder suggests that maybe that's less plausible up close than it seems from 5000 miles away - it's described as a seam, after all, not a crack.
The guy who bolted it (neither Ethan nor Chris) sounds like he's done a fair amount of development there, I'm guessing probably knows his stuff, so given it was his choice to put all that extra effort in to place the extra bolts maybe we should credit him with enough intelligence to have done so because it was the easiest option? People don't bolt 8c+/9a sport routes coming fresh out of the wall and never having heard of a clipstick!
> Not in the presence of those cracks. I'd be suprised if those couldn't be aid climbed to get the bolts in.
> EDIT: I suspect the first ascensionist just couldn't be arsed with the aiding and took the lazy option of firing in a lot of bolts.
I can't help but feel there's an awful lot of disrespect floating round on this thread.
Bolting overhangs is hard work. Bolting granite is hard work. There's a pretty strong physical incentive not to place any more than necessary - aiding on gear would be by far the easier option, so the fact it looks a lot like a ground up bolting ladder suggests that maybe that's less plausible up close than it seems from 5000 miles away - it's described as a seam, after all, not a crack.
The guy who bolted it (neither Ethan nor Chris) sounds like he's done a fair amount of development there, I'm guessing probably knows his stuff, so given it was his choice to put all that extra effort in to place the extra bolts maybe we should credit him with enough intelligence to have done so because it was the easiest option? People don't bolt 8c+/9a sport routes coming fresh out of the wall and never having heard of a clipstick!
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In reply to AJM:
>"maybe that's less plausible up close than it seems from 5000 miles away"
That's fair comment. Perhaps there is a good explanation.
It is your prerogative to give the bolter the benefit of the doubt.
I remain skeptical and don't mind too much if you judge me a lesser person for it.
>"maybe that's less plausible up close than it seems from 5000 miles away"
That's fair comment. Perhaps there is a good explanation.
It is your prerogative to give the bolter the benefit of the doubt.
I remain skeptical and don't mind too much if you judge me a lesser person for it.
Post edited at 11:03
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In reply to AJM:
The bolts look fine to me. If there were too many bolts, bearing in mind the effort required to clip them, wouldn't Chris have skipped every other one.
> I can't help but feel there's an awful lot of disrespect floating round on this thread.
> Bolting overhangs is hard work. Bolting granite is hard work. There's a pretty strong physical incentive not to place any more than necessary - aiding on gear would be by far the easier option, so the fact it looks a lot like a ground up bolting ladder suggests that maybe that's less plausible up close than it seems from 5000 miles away - it's described as a seam, after all, not a crack.
> The guy who bolted it (neither Ethan nor Chris) sounds like he's done a fair amount of development there, I'm guessing probably knows his stuff, so given it was his choice to put all that extra effort in to place the extra bolts maybe we should credit him with enough intelligence to have done so because it was the easiest option? People don't bolt 8c+/9a sport routes coming fresh out of the wall and never having heard of a clipstick!
The bolts look fine to me. If there were too many bolts, bearing in mind the effort required to clip them, wouldn't Chris have skipped every other one.
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
My biggest issue with massively bolted lines isthat I run out of quickdraws.
My biggest issue with massively bolted lines isthat I run out of quickdraws.
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In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I suspect when you include his exploratory DWS he faces as much risk anually as that of your average high end trad rock climber.
I suspect when you include his exploratory DWS he faces as much risk anually as that of your average high end trad rock climber.
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In reply to GrahamD:
You should hassle your sponsors for more equipment
> My biggest issue with massively bolted lines isthat I run out of quickdraws.
You should hassle your sponsors for more equipment
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
Blimey those bolts are closer together than the steps on my stairs.
Blimey those bolts are closer together than the steps on my stairs.
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In reply to John Stainforth:
It's sport climbing John, it's not supposed to be about the risk but the athleticism. These guys are happy taking big safe falls or short safe falls but working hard routes, especially steep and or diagonal ones is much easier when there are more bolts. Sure it looks quite ugly with quickdraws hanging down like the teeth of a giant zip but really, who cares there's plenty of rock to suit all tastes, you need never see a bolt or a rurp or a no.7 wire in your whole climbing career if you don't wish to.
jk
> The fervour with which the concept of densely packed bolts is being defended and the responses I am getting shows that I am seriously outnumbered. I'll leave the thread - obviously little room or desire for discussion here.
It's sport climbing John, it's not supposed to be about the risk but the athleticism. These guys are happy taking big safe falls or short safe falls but working hard routes, especially steep and or diagonal ones is much easier when there are more bolts. Sure it looks quite ugly with quickdraws hanging down like the teeth of a giant zip but really, who cares there's plenty of rock to suit all tastes, you need never see a bolt or a rurp or a no.7 wire in your whole climbing career if you don't wish to.
jk
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
There's no denying those bolts look very close together
but there's also no denying that 99.5% of those reading this cannot climb that line
Looking forward to a bolt-free ascent...
There's no denying those bolts look very close together
but there's also no denying that 99.5% of those reading this cannot climb that line
Looking forward to a bolt-free ascent...
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In reply to AJM:
Here's what Sharma had to say... (see comments on Youtube link)
Hey guys . Yeah there were definitely a lot of bolts on the route. Maybe too many. However since it’s kinda close to the ground it wasn’t so easy to know which ones to skip (and I didn’t rally fancy eating it in the talus below) so it was easiest to just clip the ones that I could . I think I skipped a couple around the crux. Funny though. I think its the first time That having too many bolts actually made it more dangerous ( regarding bashing my chin hahah) anyways as far as clipping the second bolt. I think safety and the flow of the route are the most important when making this decisions. Do what feels best and safest for you. Climbing is about finding your own way not following someone else’s rules. All the best and hope you enjoyed the film!
Here's what Sharma had to say... (see comments on Youtube link)
Hey guys . Yeah there were definitely a lot of bolts on the route. Maybe too many. However since it’s kinda close to the ground it wasn’t so easy to know which ones to skip (and I didn’t rally fancy eating it in the talus below) so it was easiest to just clip the ones that I could . I think I skipped a couple around the crux. Funny though. I think its the first time That having too many bolts actually made it more dangerous ( regarding bashing my chin hahah) anyways as far as clipping the second bolt. I think safety and the flow of the route are the most important when making this decisions. Do what feels best and safest for you. Climbing is about finding your own way not following someone else’s rules. All the best and hope you enjoyed the film!
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I don't know guys, that's quite some run out to the lower off.
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In reply to JLS:
Well that settles that!
> Here's what Sharma had to say... (see comments on Youtube link)
> Hey guys . Yeah there were definitely a lot of bolts on the route. Maybe too many. However since it’s kinda close to the ground it wasn’t so easy to know which ones to skip (and I didn’t rally fancy eating it in the talus below) so it was easiest to just clip the ones that I could . I think I skipped a couple around the crux. Funny though. I think its the first time That having too many bolts actually made it more dangerous ( regarding bashing my chin hahah) anyways as far as clipping the second bolt. I think safety and the flow of the route are the most important when making this decisions. Do what feels best and safest for you. Climbing is about finding your own way not following someone else’s rules. All the best and hope you enjoyed the film!
Well that settles that!
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In reply to JLS:
It seems that Ethan Pringle was responsible for adding dogging bolts.
Ethan Pringle - "I had to come back and put in bolts, 'cause it's steep...just to get in."
AT 1min 03sec: youtube.com/watch?v=367YsIRM3xI&
So is adding extra convenience dogging bolts to a line, thus avoiding clip-stick faffing while working the route, a reasonable thing to do?
It seems that Ethan Pringle was responsible for adding dogging bolts.
Ethan Pringle - "I had to come back and put in bolts, 'cause it's steep...just to get in."
AT 1min 03sec: youtube.com/watch?v=367YsIRM3xI&
So is adding extra convenience dogging bolts to a line, thus avoiding clip-stick faffing while working the route, a reasonable thing to do?
Post edited at 09:49
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In reply to AJM:
Is it? Oops, my apologies to Ethan.
Edit: Damn, just when I'd "won" the thread with my Sharma quote, I go and score an own goal.
Is it? Oops, my apologies to Ethan.
Edit: Damn, just when I'd "won" the thread with my Sharma quote, I go and score an own goal.
Post edited at 10:43
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In reply to jkarran:
I have actually done a fair amount of sport climbing. All I was querying here was the number density of the bolts, not so much from the climber's point of view but the non-climber's or environmentalist's. When a route with similar density of bolts was put up at Enchanted Rock in Texas about five years ago, there was an outcry from all and sundry, including the climbers' bolting committee, and the bolts had to be removed.
I have actually done a fair amount of sport climbing. All I was querying here was the number density of the bolts, not so much from the climber's point of view but the non-climber's or environmentalist's. When a route with similar density of bolts was put up at Enchanted Rock in Texas about five years ago, there was an outcry from all and sundry, including the climbers' bolting committee, and the bolts had to be removed.
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In reply to JLS:
Maybe 50-60°, depends on the route a bit. Horizontal for sure as it´ s effectively impossible to get back to where you fell off from otherwise.
Maybe 50-60°, depends on the route a bit. Horizontal for sure as it´ s effectively impossible to get back to where you fell off from otherwise.
In reply to John Stainforth:
You're on the wrong forum for a non climber perspective. And do you really think any non climbers would care if a sport climb has too many bolts? And don't you think environmentalists will have bigger concerns? Can't see Greenpeace chopping them.
To me this appears to be a specific climbing issue within the climbing community, unless the area is protected for some other reason and it shouldn't be bolted at all.
Looking at Enchanted Rock now, it seems to have a tradition of minimal bolting. Might explain the outcry.
> not so much from the climber's point of view but the non-climber's or environmentalist's.
You're on the wrong forum for a non climber perspective. And do you really think any non climbers would care if a sport climb has too many bolts? And don't you think environmentalists will have bigger concerns? Can't see Greenpeace chopping them.
To me this appears to be a specific climbing issue within the climbing community, unless the area is protected for some other reason and it shouldn't be bolted at all.
> When a route with similar density of bolts was put up at Enchanted Rock in Texas about five years ago, there was an outcry from all and sundry, including the climbers' bolting committee, and the bolts had to be removed.
Looking at Enchanted Rock now, it seems to have a tradition of minimal bolting. Might explain the outcry.
Post edited at 12:57
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In reply to JLS:
I didn't really think the Sharma quote particularly challenged my point - for someone who's done the route to say maybe there's too many bolts, but with a load of qualifying umming and aahing (and having already lavished praise on the route - hasn't he compared it to Dreamcatcher?), is very different from sitting in front of a computer screen thousands of miles away arguing (to paraphrase) that the guy bolting it was just lazy, or a coward, or whatever.
I'm not against disagreeing with the bolting, I'm against the way in which it was being done.
> Edit: Damn, just when I'd "won" the thread with my Sharma quote, I go and score an own goal.
I didn't really think the Sharma quote particularly challenged my point - for someone who's done the route to say maybe there's too many bolts, but with a load of qualifying umming and aahing (and having already lavished praise on the route - hasn't he compared it to Dreamcatcher?), is very different from sitting in front of a computer screen thousands of miles away arguing (to paraphrase) that the guy bolting it was just lazy, or a coward, or whatever.
I'm not against disagreeing with the bolting, I'm against the way in which it was being done.
In reply to AJM:
>"with a load of qualifying umming and aahing"
Yeah well, I think it fair to say Sharma is diplomatic enough not to come out and state bluntly the route is overbolted.
>"I'm not against disagreeing with the bolting, I'm against the way in which it was being done."
This is an internet forum, not a natural home of tact. Yeah, perhaps those of us who wouldn't want UK sport routes to look this, could have voiced our conserns in a more mearured way.
>"with a load of qualifying umming and aahing"
Yeah well, I think it fair to say Sharma is diplomatic enough not to come out and state bluntly the route is overbolted.
>"I'm not against disagreeing with the bolting, I'm against the way in which it was being done."
This is an internet forum, not a natural home of tact. Yeah, perhaps those of us who wouldn't want UK sport routes to look this, could have voiced our conserns in a more mearured way.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I respectively disagree, as climbers we share many of our venues with other outdoor users (walkers etc) some of whom do not appreciate seeing crags littered with metal..
I respectively disagree, as climbers we share many of our venues with other outdoor users (walkers etc) some of whom do not appreciate seeing crags littered with metal..
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In reply to John Stainforth:
Specifically walkers complaining about a sport route which has too many bolts?
> I respectively disagree, as climbers we share many of our venues with other outdoor users (walkers etc) some of whom do not appreciate seeing crags littered with metal..
Specifically walkers complaining about a sport route which has too many bolts?
In reply to John Stainforth:
Strange conversation this, I haven't got a clue what you're on about anymore. Anyone else fancy a go?
> No, just unnatural metal.
Strange conversation this, I haven't got a clue what you're on about anymore. Anyone else fancy a go?
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