UKC

What is wrong with this statement from Hammond? All brexit Mps are going beserk over it. Why you are all so obsessed with breaking things?

“Instead of doing what we’re normally doing in the trade negotiations – taking two divergent economies with low levels of trade and trying to bring them closer together to enhance that trade, we are taking two completely interconnected and aligned economies with high levels of trade between them, and selectively moving them, hopefully very modestly, apart,” Hammond said.

I do not know of anyone who voted against a trade agreement, it's everything else the eu added on since that 1975 vote. 

Well apparently it's now a terrible thing

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/25/britain-cowed-brussels-jac...

Bernard Jenkin is claiming that no trade agreement is government policy and what you all voted for.

It would be interesting to hear how the outraged Brexiters in the cabinet would have preferred it was worded. Presumably "very modestly" would be dropped but if very modestly isn't how it should be described.......

I wasn't around at the time, but there seems to be plenty of evidence to suggest that way back in 1975, it was perfectly clear that the EU amounted to a political union, not just a mere trade agreement. Even Enoch Powell suggested that you wouldn't have to have read between the lines to see it so:

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/06/15/eu-vote-enoch-powells-warning-beyond-g...

I'd be interested to hear from people who did vote then on how that referendum was presented at the time.

Brexiteer MPs don't like being told that their magical fantasy future isn't possible. It's a bit like telling children that Santa isn't real, only with more gnashing and wailing. They have a word for it (although I wouldn't use it myself), I believe it's "snowflake".

I think the first referendum was the first time I could vote. Its a long time ago but I'm sure it was clear that 'Europe' (the EEC) was seen as being political as well as economic. And any subsequent changes were done with British approval.

I think that the clue was in the name. (EEC).

but even more so in the Treaty of Rome

Not mental enough obviously. 

Interesting that you have three dislikes so far for your original post but haven't received an answer to what appears to be a perfectly reasonable question.

Probs because, as with all MG’s questions on this issue, it is a waste of time engaging with someone who creates crude caricatures of those whose views he violently disagrees with. Why respond to someone who is only going to sneer at you and make wild allegations of being a racist xenophobe. That’s just a wild guess on my part, of course. 

This is the stock answer I seem to get on my social media feed, this and "I have my reasons which I'm not going to divulge". And the original questions goes unanswered.

W

Well, it gives you the chance to speak to all of us... If you find Hammond's statement objectionable I'd like to hear why, and I promise not to brand you a racist xenophobe just because I might disagree...

That'd be a first on here.

I was commenting on why people might dislike MG’s question but decline to comment: ie why subject oneself to abuse. As to the last two posts, an assumption is made that I find Hammond’s statement objectionable. I care really not all. Those of his colleagues who do object seem to do so on the grounds that the Chancellor’s views are at odds with party policy as contained in the manifesto and the promise to leave the single market. Whether all of them have gone beserk, as per the OP, would be difficult to substantiate. There’s nothing the Westminster media village loves more than a Cabinet division that goes public. I guess we get the government we deserve. The government is as deeply divided as the people. 

I believe the government is united in wanting no enforced free movement, no payments to the EU, just our own courts, and easy tariff free trade.

I don't. I do however call those, such as you,  who  are dishonest xenophobes what you are.  I disagree with Summo for example on all this too but don't regard him in that way.

And back in the real world?

The EU need to get back to the real world.

In return we offer them no enforced free movement, no payments to the UK, just their own courts, and easy tariff free trade.

Brexit: British politicians talking to themselves about themselves

That sounds like a great deal. So good in fact, that everyone will want it.

Only problem is, once nobody is paying into the EU who's going to pay for and run the regulatory frameworks that will be required to facilitate the easy tariff free trade?

We'll have to start a new body to do that. Perhaps we can call it the European Economic Community?

Unlike you, I did vote yes for that.

But now the net EU contribution of Germany nearly all goes to Greece. Which is not just paying for the framework, is it Hans?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start

Name calling again. Just to prove my point. Am I dishonest and a xenophobe, or a dishonest xenophobe? Would a xenophobe Lancastrian marry a Chinese Liverpudlian? Would he be a supporter of the hugely respected ‘we are international’ campaign and an advocate of international students being removed from the migration figures( have just been working on a report to a Commons select committee on this). I do not presume to judge you on no evidence. But you seem to have a hair trigger when it comes to firing off abuse to those who ‘differ’ from and with you. Now, what is close to being a definition of? 

Name calling again. Just to prove my point. Am I dishonest and a xenophobe, or a dishonest xenophobe? Would a xenophobe Lancastrian marry a Chinese Liverpudlian? Would he be a supporter of the hugely respected ‘we are international’ campaign and an advocate of international students being removed from the migration figures( have just been working on a report to a Commons select committee on this). I do not presume to judge you on no evidence. But you seem to have a hair trigger when it comes to firing off abuse to those who ‘differ’ from and with you. Now, what is close to being a definition of? 

Well, quite. Easy tariff free trade only really works if you can get your economies reasonably aligned, so you can't really do it on just a flimsy framework. So once we've established the EEC, we'll need to progress towards some sort of Union if we want to keep this easy tariff free trade going. 

Of course, it would be a little wasteful to abandon the one we've got, just to get back to where we are down the line - which is why, in the real world, the EU is never going to allow us to have our cake and eat it, no matter how many times we tell them it's the best thing for all concerned.

You are right. The only way to make the EU work is to have a United States of Europe with very large fiscal transfers to underperforming Club Med and post Communist countries. Even if this were achievable, which is very unlikely given the direction its member states are headed, the EU would still not be able to compete with the US and the emerging giant of China. 

Well, if we want to compete with China we're going to have to drive wages down a lot further than we have managed in the last decade. Is that really what you want? Is that the plan for Brexit?

Personally, I'd prefer we concentrated on co-operation and progress than a competitive race to the bottom...

Ha. If we want to compete? You can’t have been to Shanghai recently. This is not a low wage economy. China is rapidly moving to the top league in Industry 4.0. The challenge is coming whether we want it or not! The response is not low wage. It is high value manufacturing, robotics and automation. It is knowledge and services.it was New Labour and cheap Eastern European migrants that pushed us down the low wage economy route. 

I am sure everyone in the UK wants all those things, however if you just have to pick one, which would it be?

Nope. Just describing you. If you dont like it, don't be dishonest and xenophobic. You were called.on this numerous times on the other thread.

Seems so.

Now, any answer to the OP?

You are a nasty piece of work 

So no answer. Just (hypocritical) abuse.

Love you dude x

A general point prompted  by what somebody said to me recently on the continent making me think it was still significant.

The  1950 roots  of the EU lie in  avoidance of war not trade.

To to miss that is to misunderstand those we negotiate with.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuman_Declaration

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community

Chinese wages only caught up with those Eastern European wages last year. If that makes them not a low wage economy, how could they have pushed us down the low wage route?

Sorry. China median wages now a little above former communist states now in EU. My point is that China is now leapfrogging into robotics and automation. It will no longer need to use low labour costs for comparative advantage. Our response should/cannot be based on wage rates but smart applications of digital technologies. 

I struggle to work out whether this is breathtaking naivety or the usual cynical manipulation in search of the required answer. Either way to hang in with the EU as Phil suggests is merely to prolonged no the agony. Better by far to get the job done and start the rebuild with integrity and economy intact. As has been pointed out the EU is falling apart, the Med countries struggle and EUism suits only a few fat cat politicians.

And what makes you think we'll be better equiped to do that on our own than in collaboration with our neighbours?

Pointed out by the DM, perchance?

Well thanks for at least addressing the question, unlike anyone else. Unfortunately I think your answer is based on a string of errors, but we are.

Did I ever say that we should not collaborate? Did I say we should not work with our neighbours and the wider world? 

As an economic bloc they seem to be doing rather well actually, better than us in fact. Also all other recent European elections, while maybe destabilising, weren’t emphatic votes to leave for the respective countries, more a recoil from our position.

Economic bloc? So last century. We live in a digital, globalised world. Open markets and all that. Remind me, whatever became of Minitel? 

My food isn’t digital.

And what is your point about Minitel?

Don't worry these lyrics were written with MG in mind.

You're a bum you're a punk
You're an old s*** on junk
Lying there almost dead on a drip in that bed
You scumbag you maggot
You cheap lousy faggot

You would be surprised at how digital modern farming is. And Minitel? You can figure that out. 

You got me dude.

Well forgive me if I misinterpreted, but I got the impression you were for our withdrawal from the the big political, economic, and social collaboration project we are currently partaking in?

Nevertheless eating remains a distinctly analogue experience for me at least. You might represent a more advanced sub-species of Homo sapiens that can eat bytes.

That’s pretty unpleasant.

The only thing I can work out about your Minitel comment is that you might be a Francophobe.

Is this the site where people jump to conclusions? I’m a racist, dishonest, xenophobe/Francophobe so far. As for Minitel, I find It hard that you don’t get the reference in this context. Chiefly it is that a dirigiste ( oh lord please forgive me the use of a French-derived word) approach led to Minitel which was all but scrapped a few years back. In other words, it’s not the best way to innovate and stimulate growth. Which may be why France has been in economic and political crisis for the last three decades, as my engineering colleagues in Eiffage tell me. 

That would be one way to describe it. I’m not sure how collaborative it is, however. 

So how exactly would you describe tariff free trade, freedom of movement, common legal frameworks, harmonisation of regulations, common agricultural and fishing policies, establishing the european convention on human rights, negotiating trade deals with 3rd countries as a bloc, and the european arrest warrant, all the way down to the small things like the removal of roaming call charges and preventing your insurance company from making you pay more to be covered when you cross the channel, if not collaborative?

Oops, I thought you meant collaboration as in "the situation of people working with an enemy who has taken control of their country".

Hi Summo,
When you say "everything else 'the eu' added on", what additions are you referring to?

I ask because most EU decisions are decided by unanimity or qualified majority voting with a high threshold (mostly 80%), so there are very few changes since 1975 that the UK did not agree to. Indeed the UK has been the driving force for many changes, such as eastward enlargement. 

Have a quick look at the graph in this piece ( http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/is-the-uk-marginalised-in-the-eu-2/ ). It shows that the UK has been one of the most influential members of the EU. EU policies have traditionally ended up much closer to UK preferences than they have to most other members' preferences.

This externalising of EU decision-making as something done 'to' Britain by an external entity is one of the big fallacies of arguments for Leave. Britain may not have been as emotionally invested in the EU as other members, but it has been at the heart of EU decision-making and has generally gotten its way in terms of EU policies. Britain's opt-outs and rebate are other examples of how EU membership has been incredibly favourable for the UK especially.

One of the great ironies of Brexit is that it is only now that we are leaving that we will be dictated to by the EU.  Not only will we have to adapt to decisions which we are not involved in, but EU policies will drift further and further from British preferences, as the liberal and non-Eurozone blocs are weakened by our departure.

Happy to listen to your response and continue the discussion if you like.

Cheers,
Conor

Against those who think that a United States of Europe and the self selected European Dictoriate with their unaccountable legislation and finances that are above scrutiny, are a better option.

That's funny. I thought Merkel, Macron and the other members of the European Council were selected by their respective electorates. 

Clearly you have a deep and balanced understanding of these things. I'm sorry, I retract my point and bow to your vastly superior wisdom.

Hmm. Who are the top three EU economies? How are the Mediterranean economies doin? Who will Germany sell cars to when we find things more than xpensive? How will the Eurocrats fund their lifestyle and projects without us? What will they do when we shift to other markets? I think we have less to fear from being bold than the sclerotic Euro nations

Does little butthurt baby want some deep heat for his sore little remoaner bottom? 

Sclerotic? Half the tories behave like they have just come out of a time capsule buried in 1912. They act and talk like the twentieth century never happened.

The empire is gone and it's not coming back i'm afraid  

I think you might describe this as a straw mammoth!

I don't think the answers to any of those questions support the case to leave.

I suppose it’s marginally better than a Labour Party harkin* back to 1917. Or an EU cabal with dreams of Roman Empire.

As you wish. Then let me ask what makes you think that a bunch of deadbeat bullying Eurocrats can make better decisions for Britain than our own national government of whatever stripe? 

Is it not time to get behind the majority decision and have a determination to make it work despite what the little eurolanders have to say? 

Not at any price, no. When I'm convinced (or even hear a promising line of argument) that there are any economic benefits to leaving, then I'll reconsider my position. Right now I think we are making a huge amount of unecessary work, with sole object of making everybody's lives a bit worse.

We are a major force (at the moment) in deciding EU policy.  We have MEPs.  We have Vetos.  So exactly which decisions would we need to make "better"

No.  It is time to try to minimise the damage caused.

And what did all that power and influence mean when Cameron went asking for the EU Reform Deal?
An ‘Emergency Brake on immigration’ but one owned and operated by (and only by) the EU.
So in short, Fu&& All.
The EU has its rules and its aims. We were never part of the ‘Ever Closer Union’ brigade, so a tipping point had to be confronted sooner or later.
Yes, an uncertain future may be scary, but you make your (democratic) choice and then you live with it (or just keep on whining about how things could have been).
 

Taking into account the fact that -- of those who voted -- almost half wanted the UK to retain its membership of the EU, I think you'll maybe have to put forward a more persuasive argument for leaving.

Is it not obvious that DC didn't really want reform? Yes, he wanted to come away with just enough change to appease the Eurosceptics, but for him it was damage limitation. The EU policies in place had been agreed by the UK along with the other EU countries for very good reason, which is that they created an economically beneficial and socially cohesive Europe within which to be part. The biggest obstacle to EU reform faced by DC was DC himself.

Oddly, I almost seem to be saying positive things about DC, which is making me feel not a little queasy. I'll need to remind myself that it was also his government that was quite happy for the EU to be scapegoated for all sorts of damaging UK government policy that had little or nothing to do with the EU, and which got us into this mess in the first place.

Such as? Name one thing that has affected your life adversely that's as a result of EU legislation.

?? Have I ever said it has? 

We don't HAVE "enforced free movement" - we aren't part of the Schengen area.

The funds we contribute are returned with interest in EU investment in large parts of Wales and Cornwall, and in the trade that comes from being a member of the larges free-trade bloc in the world.

How many times has the ECJ been appealed to (successfully) to overturn threats to our freedom imposed by this government? - The "snoopers charter" springs to mind....

We already HAVE "easy tariff free trade" - what makes you think we haven't?

As is the European Parliament.

And Commisioners are elected by the Council who are elected......

Err almost EVERY piece of EU legislation has been voted for by British representatives. How is that "bullying"? And the EU has no say in our internal tax affairs, budget or defence.

This immigration thing is a fallacy. We could have easily controlled immigration - successive governments chose NOT to. Don't blame the EU for something that is the fault of the UK government...

It was implicit in your first post: " it's everything else the eu added on since that 1975 vote"

Even the idiot D Davies has publicly stated that when different facts emerge, it's OK to change your mind. OK so all the "project fear" projections haven't happened in such force as were forecast, but there's a lot of stuff coming out that the "Leave" campaign poo-pooed. We need to review the referendum result which was only advisory BTW - it's May who's turned an advisory vote into one set in concrete) based on EVIDENCE, not the rantings of the Daily Fail, the Sun and Express, nor the hidden agendas of Rees-Mogg and BoJo. 

But doesn't say I was negatively impacted though does it?

As it happens I think CAP is a farce and yes I've claimed it. I don't agree with the fisheries policy. The monthly move to Strasbourg is just a waste of taxpayers money. The eu fisheries policy is disadvantaging the UK. Allowing nations to cook their books to join the euro, means those that didn't now keep them afloat through the ecb. The German dominance in steering the euro so many nation effectively saw their currency devalued etc.. add in their incompetence in handling the Balkans, refugees, Crimea, Ukraine etc.. The eu expectation that nation are austere whilst massively expanding their own budget. The eus inability to sort out Austria, Hungary, Romania and others in toeing the line over migrants...   

That should give you something to chew on. But I won't be debating as it's been done to death recently enough already.

I agree, However,   Farage is /was on the Fisheries committee and attended FOUR out of 50 meetings. He did SFA for the British  Fisheries and then  used that as one of his reasons for Brexit. 

European Council members are elected as follows.

Sebastian Kurz Chancellor elected in  Austria 
Charles Michel Prime Minister elected in  Belgium
Boyko Borisov Prime Minister elected in  Bulgaria
Andrej Plenkovi Prime Minister elected in  Croatia
Nicos Anastasiades President elected in  Cyprus
Andrej Babiš Prime Minister elected in  Czech Republic
ars Løkke Rasmussen Prime Minister elected in  Denmark
Jüri Ratas Prime Minister elected in  Estonia
Juha Sipilä Prime Minister elected in  Finland
Emmanuel Macron President elected in  France
Angela Merkel Chancellor elected in  Germany
Alexis Tsipras Prime Minister elected in  Greece
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Paolo Gentiloni Prime Minister elected in  Italy
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Xavier Bettel Prime Minister elected in  Luxembourg
Joseph Muscat Prime Minister elected in  Malta
Mark Rutte Prime Minister elected in  Netherlands
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Plus TWO non-voting and non-elected members - Donald Tusk and Jean-Claude Juncker