UKC

As Austerity reaches its apex - the Government prepares to roll out U.C. out nationwide.

I was unlucky/lucky (delete as appropriate) enough to be on U.C. earlier this year before I found another job.

I consider myself to be quite switched on, diligent and literate yet found it a struggle to prevent sanctions being applied and felt as though I was forced to act more like lawyer (constantly covering myself to protect against sanctions) than a job-seeker. 6 months later, despite still being in work and not claiming I get the occasional email warning me to log into the U.C. portal to agree to new commitments even though I’ve claimed nothing off them for 6 months. Failure to do so would lead to financial sanctions for 3 years should I ever need to claim again in the future. Not only are you forced to jump through bureaucratic hoops whilst claiming, once you’ve signed on your soul belongs to the DWP even after you’ve found gainful employment.

How someone more vulnerable would cope with the minefield of changing rules, I don’t know.

Gordon Brown has warned that the roll out will plunge millions more children into poverty and ominously warns of a summer of discontent.

What are your experiences of Iain Duncan Smith’s brainchild? Is it fit for purpose? Is there another way?

In reply to Phantom Disliker:

You've got to work on the premise that they consider you as benefit claiming scum and they don't want to give you a single penny. Along with Disability Allowance/PIP, it's all been re-engineered to make claiming as difficult as possible and reduce payments on any flimsy excuse they can come up with or blame you on the tiniest misdemeanour on your part

Looks like I'm going to be locking horns with DWP over mobility allowance in PIP.

Bastards.

In reply to Lusk:

Should I give the disliker the benefit of the doubt and assume they dislike the way you've been treated by DWP or da ya think they've got you pegged as benefit claiming scum?

In reply to JLS:

Don't know, don't care

The PIP's not for me anyway!

In reply to Phantom Disliker:

I have been lucky enough to never need to claim a penny for anything but the wife was off work for 2 years and claiming was a joke. The amount of hoops she had to jump through was taking the piss, especially as she had drain tubes coming from her kidneys in to bags on the floor for 4 months and couldn't jump for 18 months after. 

But I know an unhealthy amount of benefit scroungers personally. They can work but chose not to and seem to get money thrown at them. It seems the trick to claiming is to never work in the first place. 

In reply to Lusk:

My partner has volunteered at the local CAB for a couple of years. The impression she gives me is that UC & PIP are evil. It is a deliberate campaign of unkindness directed at those most vulnerable and least able to help themselves. Claimants are intimidated and made effectively destitute. It humiliates people. Nasty policy from the nasty party.

In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

It’s terrifyingly malign in intent. It’s unfortunate that it sounds a bit like Universal Basic Income although it has the exact opposite intent and effect.

I suppose any hope of the Tory government considering UBI is futile.

In reply to Lusk & Dax H:

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

It's fair enough that there's a financial hole in the country's balance sheet - this needs addressing. But to make the most needy pay so everyone else can use Netflix, buy pointless crap off Amazon and go on all inclusive holidays seems wrong. Why is austerity aimed at the most vulnerable?

In reply to the phantom disliker:

Are you I.D.S?

In reply to Phantom Disliker:

Interestingly enough, well maybe not, I was at Gordon's speech tonight. What a brilliant man, what a grasp of such a wide range of subjects.

Universal credit was only a part of the speech he gave tonight but he pointed out that 2/3 of people on this benefit are actually employed. They just don't get paid enough. Further the tories are cutting funding by £3 billion. The cuts, combined with rises in the cost of food and utility bills will lead to a cut in income in real terms of 5% for those that have nothing and are already living in poverty. The UK is the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world and and huge swathe of society rely on the charity of food banks to survive FFS.

The rest of his speech, which I don't think has been reported, was about internationalism and how we need global cooperation, not isolation such as is happening in the US and is promoted by certain EU states now, to make it work for all and not just the well off in society.

I hesitate to bring this up in case it derails a worthwhile discussion but he also answered a question about a second Brexit referendum. He felt it was inevitable but probably wouldn't happen in the few months. He believes an interim deal will be reached and negotiations will continue for some years to come and that will take us into a GE. He believes that Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP would all put a second referendum in their manifestos and that by that time the overwhelming majority of the people of Britain will demand one.

In reply to Removed User:

Last my brother was sent on a basic IT skills course having just graduated with a degree in computer science... 

 

In reply to Removed User:

I always had a lot of respect for Gordon Brown even though he was much maligned whilst he was PM. I think he was a good man and a capable one.

In reply to Phantom Disliker:

I thought he was a brilliant chancellor but a disappointing Prime Minister. And a good man, since 2010 he's given millions to charities from his fees for talks etc.

In reply to Removed User: A quote I heard about Gordon Brown was about him having 'The highest of morals and the basest of methods', with how he'd give the appearance of things being a certain way while chancellor towards taking money in tax, but do very worthy things with it once the government had it. Perhaps that's just the nature of politics, and I see him as a decent human being with an urge to help those in need. As humans we all have 'light' and 'dark' in us.

I've not heard many things good about UC and PIP. Apparently people who claim Working Tax Credit don't always know that it's essentially a loan, too, which means that some people are working full time jobs which don't give them enough to live on, and are claiming assistance offered by the government, which they're going to have to pay back again.  

 

In reply to Removed User:

Must be a new record, we got about 10 posts in before Brexit was mentioned. Has anyone had the thought that the lack of cheap labour after Brexit might just push wages up? It's supply and demand and at the moment there is a large supply of people willing to work for next to bugger all. 

In reply to Dax H:

The 'market' for wages is broken. Low wages are propped up by benefits - see what Gordon Brown said about two thirds of UC claimants being employed.

I don't think people are 'willing' to work for bugger all - they have little choice.

In reply to Dax H:

If the UK economy stays the same size, or grows, after Brexit, then yes, wages will probably be pushed up in many areas by reduced supply and constant demand. However, many people think that demand will fall faster than supply.

In reply to Phantom Disliker:

This is a sobering thread, although not entirely surprising.

At a macro level the potential benefits of universal credit seem clear - it should be far easier to administer than multiple overlapping benefits to various householders, all with their own thresholds.

But the implementation is managing to combine ruthlessness, ineptitude and pig-headedness all in one unholy mess.

In reply to :

 

 

Exactly. If you're unfortunate to be unemployed you're likely to be forced to take a low paid job from which escape can be very difficult.

In reply to stevieb/Dax - generally I'd disagree - the UK has pretty low unemployment and still wage growth is limited for a bunch of reasons - an increased number of gig type workers, limited ability to bargain, weak unions, increasingly low value work and low productivity.  In a few areas Brexit will push wages up - agriculture, care work, but they are poor payers to start with, and the results will be refunded in inflation for everyone else.

 

In reply to Phantom Disliker:

I got talking to two people on the train last night (a man and woman in their late 30's) and their plight is pitiful to say the least, they had literally nothing except the kindness of the food banks and his mother who lives not far from me. They had been homeless quite a few times but stuck together through thick and thin.

Hearing their story was really sad, the contrast between my life and theirs was really dramatic. I think its been this way for them for a long time.

They haven't had their universal credit payment since June for some reason, and they get charged bedroom tax on what very little they have as their flat was 2 bed. They looked shattered to be honest, physically and emotionally, I don't know how they get through each day surviving. It seemed that for them, the system was doing its best to work against them instead of help. I think mental health had a large role to play in their life story as she said she'd had a mental breakdown in the last few years and he had suffered from depression.

They have to go to a meeting on a regular basis, which I think is related to their benefit claim, if they miss the meeting they don't get any benefit. The office is in Caerphilly and if they can't afford train fare to Caerphilly they can't make the meeting. They didn't have a mobile phone, they couldn't afford one.

They said they had £37.00 between them to last until the beginning November. I don't know why they don't stay at his mothers, but they were going there before home for a hot meal, which was their luxury they said.

They did used live in Caerphilly, at least it was a town with some opportunities, but the council have now put them in Rhymney which is right up at the top of the valley, there's nothing there now since the mines were shut down, all of the industrial units are closed down, no work, no hope, what chance is there for them to better themselves. She said its like Checkmate at every turn.

L

 

 

In reply to Dax H:I

I trust you enjoyed your Dail Mail this morning!

 

In reply to Phantom Disliker:

IDS resigned when the Treasury reduced the funding for UC.

From what I recall even the likes of Frank Field said the principle of UC was fine in encouraging people off benefits and into work.

The whole social care and benefits system is complicated and beset by all sorts of rules that throw you from pillar to post. I agree you you need your wits about you ( having experienced it for my Mum in social care).

I would not like to run that Department.Poisoned chalice.

 

 

In reply to Phantom Disliker:

Part of what I find quite depressing about UC is that, in principle, it's a better system than what it's replacing. There was a brief period where IDS was lauded in the left-wing press for his original stated aims: simplifying the benefits system, ensuring there was no penalty for being in work, lifting families out of poverty. Even some of the decisions that were made (probably naively) that have caused people such harm - such as paying people by the month and in lieu, can be seen as the product of good intentions.

I don't work in the DWP so, from the outside, it's hard to tell to what extent the malign system we have now is the result of repeated budget cuts, ideology, or simple bad planning / management (or all three). I generally subscribe to the rule 'don't assign to maliciousness what could equally be caused by ignorance'; basically, don't assume people are evil when there's a host of other reasons to explain their action. However, I strongly get the feeling that the Benefits budget is seen as an easy target by Tories as the people it affects don't vote for them anyway. If that's true, it's pretty nasty.

If this leads to UC being scrapped, as I suspect it will, then one of the consequences of that will be more chaos in the lives of the most vulnerable in our society, and the likelihood of more harm being done. I suspect we'll see a name change, at the very least. 

In reply to Phantom Disliker:

How we look after the sick, young, old, disabled, disadvantaged and vulnerable says a lot for our society. Superficially the UK should be great, free schooling, free healthcare, etc. But as you dig in, they're all fundamentally screwed by underfunding.

But can you expect compassion from politicians elected by a society at large that lacks that compassion.

When did you last year people complaining about how much tax we pay? Okay no one likes paying if, but worse than paying it is paying it and funding it doesn't deliver.

You know why the Tories want or of Europe - because in the European parliament they are associated with the anti EU state right wing minority. Without a progressive socialist government the issues over welfare and social security will not be fixed.

In reply to Philip:

Well when you look at IFS reports as to how much tax needs to be generated to cover everything that voters want I doubt any party can deliver.

If you add about up the ideal funding for  uc, social care, nhs, education and so on it outstrips anything that can be gained for example by increasing corporation tax, harsher evasion tax rules, raiding taxes from high earners and so on.

IFS concluded that the only way of doing it was to raise VAT across the board by  I think it was 25% and getting rid of VAT exemptions on things like childrens clothes etc.

But as they said themselves - any party that did this would be history- it is just not going to happen.

Realpolitik

In reply to pasbury:

I suspect this is true, but bear in mind policies like tax credits only supported this problem and likely made it worse, well intentioned maybe but it proves this is a difficult problem to crack.

I think there are some sensible bits in UC but the rollout and the underfunding are turning it into a disaster.

In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

Indeed, although this has started before UC. But this is exactly what the tories said they would do. This is what their electorate wanted and benefit scrounged bashing was a big part of the tories electoral success. 

In reply to Removed User:

https://order-order.com/2014/01/24/exc-gordon-brown-office-has-10000-a-week...

In reply to neilh:

Source? Not that I don't believe you, it just sounds like an interesting report.

In reply to BFG:

IFS website somewhere and widely reported at the time in the Economist etc.earlier this year.. It looked at what tax rises were need ( like for social care costs etc) and where the tax would come from ( corporation tax, increasing tax on high earners, etc etc).

It dispels a few myths about taxing the rich will generate the tax to cover these things ( there are just not enough rich people to do that). Shows that say a 5% income tax increase for everyone generates a small increase in tax take.

Works through every option. Then drops the bombshell that the only one will cover the funding gap  is 25% vat on everything.