UKC

Whilst on a job at a house with a large garden surrounded by sheep fields, I noticed a pest controller refilling bait boxes all around the perimeter of the garden. I found this quite shocking, considering the downwards effect this will have on the food chain, raptors etc. How is this still legal? 

I miss seeing the big barn owl which got poisoned when we had a plague of rats in the village.

I live on a housing estate and had a rat problem so bought some traps and sorted them. But in the case you describe, they are kinda facing a loosing battle unless they constantly try and kill them, which looks like they do.  If you choose to live somewhere like that then you should simply put up with a few rats. The house owners need to get a grip. 

The hunting fraternity in Cyprus where I live (approx 25% of the adult male population) love doing this.  They chuck poisoned grain around too, tonnes of it.  Some also like to use liver baited with hideous stuff like lannate (witnessing a dog dying of lannate poisoning is horrible).

A few weeks ago when out trad climbing (first time in a year, but I digress) a kestrel fell out the sky dead.  From the discharge around its beak it had been clearly poisoned.  Whether from a primary or secondary source, who knows.  Lovely people.  Not.

The amount of coagulant left in a dead rats liver is kinda small and they normally die in their nests anyway and dry out rapidly. The devastation a rat will do to a birds eggs on the other hand....

I have always been told that rats overdose on rat poison so that they remain extremely toxic for some time after they die.

They eat loads and pass it though, the peak danger would be something eating a load of rats after they had eaten it but before they digested it or crept off to their holes. There's plenty of studies out there on secondary poisoning, a few which I skimmed, (we've just spent €1500 eliminating rats from our humble abode).

Shame we can't have virus like poisons that only target one dna, even better for weeds.  I expect there's been weapons research.

The unintended consequences of that could be ecosystem collapsing sort of devastating, so be extremely careful of what you are wishing for.

Targetting can't make things worse.     Single drone strike or nuke the country ?

Yes, it can. It could spread and kill off every rat in the country, spreading so much gives it a lot of opportunity to mutate and potentially jump to another species. If it does so we would be *seriously* f***ed, they are mammals after all.

Are you against vaccines ?  Do you think they could spread,  mutate,  and jump to other species ?

What the hell are you on about?

A poison that only works for a specific dna.  Nothing that replicates.

And what the hell does that have to do with vaccines? Vaccines aren't poisons that target a specific DNA, they are antigens (or produce antigens) that teach your immune system to attack a specific pathogen.

In order to make a poison that targets a specific DNA it would need to target a particular pathway that is unique to that species. Considering we share the vast majority of our DNA with all other mammals, that is a tall order to start with. 

I think he's thinking of something (okay he's confused) like Weils disease which 70% of rats carry and seems remarkably adapted only to effect a limited number of mammals, including human beings, why we don't "learn to live" with rat infestation.

I wonder how birds managed before humans poisoned all the rats for them. 

Probably great until we created an environment where they thrive, like your rubbish, your sewer, your garden shed....

Complicated isn't it?

Humans are the problem. Natures food sources go in cycles, summer /winter, or peaks and troughs due to other factors. Rats though win year round, we've built no end of structures that are warm and cosy for them, combined with our year round littering and poor bin management rats never have an off season. 

I was not confused and not thinking of a disease.  I'm an inventor.  First you propose what you want.  In this case a dna detector trigger for some lethal payload.   The detail always comes after you decide to attempt something new.

The poison could be general,  only activated locally by the dna detector.

What in the name of all that is holy or unholy is a "DNA detector", in this context David?

You are getting a bit carried away demanding I tell you how it could be done !

Shame we can't have an Aladdin's Lamp, or a Pied Piper.  But I can imagine poisons that only target one dna might exist one day.

Brings back horrible images of eugenics, concentration camps and such. I hope we never pursue anything remotely in that direction. You are discussing rats, but image the Uighurs or whoever...

Please let's move away from this unsavoury nonsense and swiftly back on topic of rat poison left out and the wildlife/food chain

Here's an interesting podcast describing the development of a specific contraceptive to replace poison for rats. (Text version also available). It was first developed for mice to induce menopause so they called it Mouseopause, now marketed as ContraPest.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2022/feb/02/from-the-archive-man-v-r...

Or a cancer.

Hasn't this (or similar) been tried before with Myxomatosis and rabbit populations?

I don't get rat poison boxes. If they combined a poison box and a trap Mr rat can run in, doors drop down so he can't get out, not that he would given there is free food in there. Rat dies, rat collector resets the trap for the next one. 

That is true.  Many similar things like introducing predators.  Not my intended meaning though.  I was wishing for a poison that was only active in contact with the right target.  Can't use weedkiller.  Kills my fish and other plants.  Can't use slug killer which kills shrews, and birds.  Farmers use chemicals to control pests but wipe out everything.  I put a net on the pond to stop herons, but it killed a grass snake.  Better technology is needed.

Traps are expensive and a lot of work.  Poison box is just a box, no work involved.

Normal traps are but a rat box with simple drop down doors doesn't need to be, it only has to hold the rat until the poison does its job. 

I used to sell mousetraps to RentoKil for over £200 each.  But that's another story.  It's expensive to send someone to empty the trap and clean it.  A lot of work for one rat, when there are hundreds.

Rats are cunning, extremely so. If they find a new food source they carry a sample back to the nest and eat it there while the others presumably watch, if the rat dies the rest avoid that particular food. So the poisons are made to require repeat doses and take seven to ten days to kill. Deadfall and box traps will only catch the rat(s) that use that particular route, you'll get a couple but not the other fifty that use other routes.

The box traps I used (for months) got two, the deadfall ones (about ten of the things) got four and the poison the unknown multitude.

That's interesting, thanks. 

Why do you feel that it was acceptable for you to sort the problem but other people are facing a losing battle and should put up with it?

Just watch No Time To Die.

Because they are living in the countryside and it will be nigh on impossible to eliminate, and even trying to eliminate will result in killings loads and loads of rats and other animals will suffer. I had a problem with them under my shed, and then in my shed. I live in a built up area so killed a few with a fenn trap and the problem was solved. 

I am not keen on using poison because of the possible impact on other wildlife and pets. Unfortunately, killing traps have there 'problems' too.

We had rats coming into the garden through a broken drain. The killing trap caught seven, but all were young ones. I think the adult were too wary to get caught.

Dave

In my experience you have got that the wrong way round.

Living in the countryside you usually get just one influx a year when the natural food sources dry up and the weather turns.

Living in the town they will always be close by due to the easier pickings in urban surroundings.

I've been walking in areas where there were large signs everywhere warning that the land around the public footpath had been laced with poison/bait, presumably an attempt to get people/their dogs to keep to the footpath. Whether it was true or not, I got the sense that walkers weren't too welcome.