UKC

Encountered this today when out

https://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/20015126.condemnation-graffiti...

I found a large one with 2022 added by the shite high up on the final slopes to the summit plateau over to the right from the usual way up.  Which turd did this?

Me, of course.

Not really me, just highlighting that the perpetrators are unlikely to be ukc users.

Anyway, on with the outrage. 

Saw this on social media yesterday. Absolute bellends. I hope whoever did it gets very bad gonorrhea. 

Striding Edge guy on FB has a post and someone's shared a screenshot of Instagram posts from the person alleged to be responsible.

Where was that wonderful thread where it was argued graffiti at The Roaches was self expression or art and should be embraced?

Remind me again why so many in the outdoor community seem so keen that the world and his wife should be encouraged to visit the outdoors more?

It baffles me, on scrutiny it tends to be those who have a financial interest who push for increased participation; instructors, guides, outdoor centres, retailers, manufacturers, publishers, media outlets (ukc included), festival organisers, governing bodies. Increased participation = increased revenue

These skew perception because of the media clout they have, you or I don't have an advertising budget so are stuck with being grumpy on here.

Guidebooks are another example of this, they have grown unfit for original purpose but sell well so we have to carry something which dwarfs the Lancashire brick down our shirts.

Back to my original point you often hear:

"great day, had the crag to ourselves" 

You never hear

"great day, struggled to get on a route, had to queue, crag mobbed" 

What climbers want and what the industry want have diverged significantly. 

I am not sure which is the most abhorrent, the graffiti or the behaviours encouraged/enabled by this and the FB post.

Grab your pitchforks. 

The thing I struggle with is the apparent level of outrage. The fell assessor's tweet used that kind of language. There was a similar story about someone finding a pebble painted in the colours of Ukraine on Beinn an Dothaidh and much of the commentary used terms like 'absolute outrage'.

There needs to be a bit of perspective on these things. I'd rather not see graffiti in the hills but I'm going to save my most disapproving language for the things that really need it. If we leap straight to absolutely outrage for a painted rock we're not going to have suitable language left for the real outrages.

TLDR? Calm down folks, it's not a good thing but neither is it the end of the world.

But obviously they want everyone else to enjoy the outdoors in the same way as them and not find other ways to enjoy it.

There's a fine line to tread here, there should be as few barriers as possible to people using the outdoors but I for one definitely baulk at the idea of active promotion. And it isn't just the 'industry' that do this, lots of grass roots climbers etc seem to agree with it.

Sensible words.

My instinct says that this is local louts. I can't see anyone travelling from the wider world, laden with cans of spray paint, with the express mission of tagging some remote rocks (the tags are pretty rubbish, no-one would travel any reasonable length to do some squiggles).

The suggestion this is somehow due to promoting the great outdoors (like it's some kind of well kept secret that the outdoors exists?) seems a bit nonsensical.

The sort of people who graffiti/vandalize aren't generally the sort of people looking to be better informed of the outdoor community and places of natural beauty. You could in fact argue that them NOT being inculcated into said community is what leads to this unfortunate behaviour.

Maybe they need to talent hunt, not promote the outdoors. If you can scale some razor wire, traverse a bridge above railway tracks, hang one handed whilst spraying their tag then they need steering into climbing! 

Well said! I can remember the days when you could go into the hills and meeting another party was a rare event. Crags were generally deserted, maybe one or two other parties, and there was rarely a problem getting onto a route. North Wales and/or the Lakes might get a little busy at weekends, but were generally quiet during the week. EG it was rarely much of a problem parking in the few little laybys under Shepherds Crag, and there were generally spaces behind tea tea shack on the bridge at Ogwen. Pen y Pass  car park could be a problem at weekends, a weekday was usually ok, If you couldn't find a space you only had to wait for a bit and someone would come along and move off.

In the 1960s/70s there were a few people offering guiding services, and places offering Outward Bound courses, but there was generally not much advertising or pressure on the general public to get into the hills. The onus was very much on the individual to show some interest, and then they would be welcomed and mentored by more experienced climbers and clubs, or go on the few courses available.

It's now become a mass money making industry, and it's the mountains, hills, crags, canyons, and environment in general which are suffering as a consequence. I don't know what the answer is? But if it carries on like this we are already destroying the very things we cherish.

Or you know, people aren't selfish tw*ts and want others to have the opportunity to also enjoy something they do. But yeah, big old capitalist conspiracy. 

It wasn't just one, I think I counted 4

in hundreds of ascents since the 1980s I've never seen the like

What I also enjoy is those claiming that the "natural environment" has been desecrated by a bit of paint. Guys, it's already been destroyed - it's essentially a slightly green industrial park, thanks to millennia of overgrazing and poor management. 

p.s. I still graffiti is bad and shouldn't be there, just find this a strange line of argument

Thanks for the promotion! Previously, I could only dream of tw*t.

It is hardly uncommon for outdoor types to like peace and quiet, nor is it uncommon for businesses to want to make money. No conspiracy just a conflict of interests.

Out of interest, what do you do for a living? 

When you're sat in a traffic jam complaining about the traffic is a bit lacking in self-awareness.

You are not really offering a solution to the problem though are you? 

Neither are you.

Anyway, the traditional answer is that outdoor education is the answer. Positive role models introduce people to the outdoors and engender respect etc etc.

I said that in my post

I agree that anti social such as that highlighted by this thread should be reduced by education, but that goes far further than simply outdoor education, it needs to embrace teaching responsible behaviour in all our activities. If people are taught to be good citizens in life and to respect the feelings of others wherever they are, they are less likely to spray graffiti on Striding Edge.  

What is "the problem"? Other people enjoying doing something you like doing?

Too many people, which is the problem with most things... 

If older members of this forum think that there are too many people in the hills these days could I humbly suggest that they step aside and stay at home?

As one of the older members, I should take exception to that suggestion, although I have long since given up on the Lake District (and most other honeypots, to be honest). 

However, I do agree with the sentiment. Anyone who has spent decades of enjoyment, as I have, on British hills, but now feels those to hills to be overcrowded, should make way for those who have still to experience the pleasure and the benefits of getting out into the hills. We've had our time, and there is no good reason why others should not be able to have the same enjoyment. 

But isn't it our entitlement as we age to be grumpy and hark back to our glory years, where's the fun in denying ourselves that pleasure. 

Pah, thats nothing - have you ever been to Dumby?

At least the older members came from an era when people had more in common with the countryside, and consequently more respect for it.

Too many younger persons are of the persuasion that they can do what they like, park where they like, and so forth.

With all due respect, wtf does this mean?

People in glass houses and all that. From a (slightly) younger persons point of view the baby boomer generation appears to have a massive issue with entitlement.

Please don't fall into that trap. Vilification of baby boomers is an artificial construct created by the the right for political mileage. Society has moved on, they can no longer scapegoat blacks or lgbtq, any mileage from Eastern euros was used up over Brexit. The next minority will be the boomers once enough have died out to make them politically invalid. 

No one should be held responsible for the economic conditions they lived through. Yes, boomers had it good but this is not a reason to vilify and punish. 

I am not a boomer but can see the writing on the wall. 

But vilification of younger generations is ok?

I did not say that, re read the thread. The nearest I have come to vilification is describing the conflict of interest between the industry and outdoor users. 

Glad to offer it.

Personally I like to share things I enjoy with people I know who I think will enjoy them too. If you want peace and quiet, can I suggest the Rhinogydd? Plenty of places to go off the beaten track and not see anyone if that's your bag, rather than implying others shouldn't access the outdoors so you can have your romantic idylls met.

Environmental microbiology, not that it's relevant. 

No, you didn't, but the person I was replying to did.

For the record, I think its stretching things to compare POC, LGBTQ or eastern europeans to the demographic that has literally been in the driving seat economically and politically for the last 25 years or so. Following generations will have to make do with less and clean up the mess that's been left behind. It's really frustrating to see a bunch of people (again, not you personally) blithely believing that they have a right to access the outdoors whilst getting annoyed about the young hoi polloi getting in their way.

Poor assumption on my part about your career.

I too am happy to share what I enjoy. I object to the overt "everyone must enjoy the outdoors" that is spouted by those campaigning to increase participation, for whatever reasons.

I enjoy the quiet nature of the mountains, I also enjoy good climbing. I know where to get each of these. The ideal is to get both together.

As I said up thread, I have yet to hear reports of a great day on a mobbed crag. 

4 what? Painted pebbles like Dave was talking about?

I think there were at least 4 bits of spraypaint shown on an Instagram feed somewhere.

Nature has a way of enforcing this

I have had loads of great days at busy crags - it can be great chatting to totally random people when you are belaying next to each other. Even last Sunday at sunset on Stanage Popular it was still relatively busy. I had a lovely chat with two women climbing a route next to where I was soloing - one was Spanish and the other Japanese. The Spaniard had previously lived in Tokyo and started climbing with the Japanese woman there. I know a considerable amount more now about trad climbing around Tokyo than I did before! 

Oddly I had chatted with a female team at Stanage last summer one of whom was Japanese and the other German (I resisted the obvious Axis power jokes! ). On the day of the first England match last summer Harpur Hill was still busy - we chatted to a Canadian and I think it was Indian -team, a Turkish/Italian team, and an Irish/Polish team - all climbing routes next to where I was climbing. I think I even had to wait to try a route I wanted to do, due to others on it - but it was still a great summer's day out.

I don't think they were. I read it as making the point that scapegoats are always needed. It's currently the 'boomers' who are seen as the source of society's evils.

A small subset of boomers have been in the economic and political driving seats (that's generally how demographics work), but they've pretty much replaced by newer versions. Have things started to improve?

Do you think the 'millennial' wing of the Tory party is going to be any less avaricious and venal?

It's simply a lazy stereotype to sow division and polarize society.

It makes as much sense as Tom blaming the entire population of England for everything.

You remind me of disputes between family friends, with some wanting to encourage others to get out there, and others the opinion that anybody who really wants to, will find their way into the outdoors.

If retirees didn't vote then the tories wouldn't be in power. Its hard not to feel resentful towards a group of people who've had the world delivered to them on the plate and then vote to pull the ladder up behind themselves, all the while scoffing at profligate millenials eating avocado on toast. Obviously not all boomers vote tory, but then again not all young people park inconsiderately or graffiti mountains.

I'm baffled so many people begrudge others enjoying the outdoors because the crowds affects their enjoyment. As someone said above, if you are stuck in traffic, you are the traffic.

I spent 4 hours bouldering in the Peak last Sunday morning in lovely weather with no one to be seen bar the friend I had arranged to meet. I had to walk a taxing minute or two from my car. Equally, I've managed to run for three or four hours around the Peak barely seeing a soul. This is probably the most popular/busy national park in the country!

If you are in search of solitude and your imagination can't think past Stanage Popular* on a sunny Sunday, you've only yourself to blame!

re Graffiti, to be honest, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more. How many people climb Helvellyn? It only takes one t**t with a spray can. Thought this could be an isolated incident, the litter, parking, stereos at crags, general "entitlement" etc of the population at large does seem to indicate a disconnect with nature and I guess a societal change. I blame the Boomers.......**

*I LOVE Stanage popular and climb there regularly, I don't, however, expect it to myself!

**Joke!

Ach, just paint over it and no one will notice....

From memory, there is an arrow pointing upwards painted on a rock on the Corridor route, coming from Lingmell col direction. I think it is to stop people going down into Piers Gill. I'm fine with that as it might save a life. (I've argued elsewhere that there should be a sign on Scafell to warn people about not heading down Broad Stand to get to Scafell Pike. Upset a few people.) I don't like the Striding Edge graffiti and don't understand why anyone would go to the trouble of carrying spray paint up there. However, it's not the end of the world and will wear away eventually. Mind you, I'm a spoiled baby boomer. At least I'm aware I've been privileged.

Belly Button Slab (6a)In reply to wercat:

Possibly a local epidemic of graffiti is sadly breaking out. Just back from climbing at Runestone Quarry in Little Langdale where there were 2 freshly sprayed graffiti tags in red. .

By way of a positive update: https://twitter.com/lakesweather/status/1507076317023510533?s=21

They’re obviously doing a Cumbrian tour, looks like it’s the same tag as on Helvellyn. 

Well that's a bit better than just grumbling about it online.

had the world delivered in a plate? 

you weren't alive in the 70s or 80s then, imagine the prospect in the coming year, inflation, interest rates roaring, job cuts... no multiply that by 15 plus years. 

yeah, the government are clowns, but the tories don't and didn't have the monopoly on stupid policies.

... On the day of the first England match last summer Harpur Hill was still busy - we chatted to a Canadian and I think it was Indian -team, a Turkish/Italian team, and an Irish/Polish team ...

On the other hand, you don't go to Harpur Hill for a bit of solitude with the wonders of nature. Yes, a quarry full of climbers can have great craic, but that's nothing to do with the days when you want to just get out on the hills away from people. Perhaps now that's no longer a reasonable 'want' and we all have to live with that.

Was up on Striding Edge today and chatted to two guys cleaning off the graffiti. Needless to say it was a surprise to see them there. We said a big thank you from everyone and gave them a Mars Bar and a Snickers as a reward for their hard work. They seemed like great guys. I wonder if they worked for the National Park?

that is good to hear - I wonder if it was the Felltop Assessors? Whoever, excellent job.  Perhaps we all need to carry wire scrubbing brushes now?

Wire scrubbing brushes is exactly what they had! You know more about cleaning graffiti than I did until today.

The graffiti carved in to rocks in some locations in Northumberland and North Yorkshire goes back hundreds of years - with a phenomenal quality of lettering for the stuff prior to the 20th century. 

Given what’s preserved in Pompeii I expect the Romans left their share of carved graffiti in natural rock in England, but it’s since been weathered away. The pyramids of Egypt have even older graffiti.

Re: the OP; at least it’s fast fading paint, these days some locations have really awful carved graffiti.  Still, that’s preferable to a tree on a walk I like near Kelloe where someone has built a 2D grid of thousands of pieces of chewing gum on an ash tree’s bark.  Like a totally un-charming version of a Yorkshire wishing tree.  That urge to leave a mark is strong; the line between ancient heritage and vandalism is perhaps but a matter of time and taste.

Sure, but that's not the point I was replying to.

But even on that, let's not over egg our pudding. I climbed Deep Ghyll on Scafell a couple of weeks ago on a gorgeous day with excellent old neve filling the gully with lots of water ice and frozen turf on the edges. It was busy when we went over to Scafell Pike later, but there was no one else at all on the North Face of Scafell. I've never seen people climbing on Kinder when I go up there, I know people do of course, but it seems even on a fine summer's day, you can be the only person on the northern edges - because it has happened to me a few times 

Anti personnel mines. Lets ensure anyone going anywhere mildly interesting is willing to risk getting maimed/bleeding out before help arrives.

Near me in the flatlands there is a site I first visited when you had to ignore the warning signs about it being dangerous as hell.  Now five minutes thought would have made you realise the signs were outdated but you still needed to find a way round the six foot fence topped with razor wire.

In all honesty I preferred it then as to now when the wildlife is scared off by all the people, especially the professional dog walkers,  walking round the managed paths. When I can see 20+ people every day vs the 2 I saw over about five years (after surprise from both sides we had a lovely chat about various artifacts we had seen). However, outside of those "professionals" who have the mutts running everywhere I am not convinced it should be restricted to those who have a sense of curiosity and a relaxed approach to warning signs.

This talk about a money making business. At the risk of pointing out the obvious that means whoever is interested needs to cough up a decent amount of cash as opposed to, say me, who got that training and experience for free.

How do we know this arsehole wouldnt have been an idiot anyway? Anyone with a cursory interest in history/archeology would know that subfield of bored idiots deciding that their scrawlings count has a long history. There is some great insight into everyday life provided by some idiot and their knife/hatchet.

Rubbish.  The young are paying your pension and burgeoning health care costs.  Maybe you should show more gratitude and understanding rather than spouting your usual sneering claptrap.

and who paid the costs of health and education of the young before they became workers? That's the nature of taxation and the collective pot, you aren't only paying for the services you use at that precise age bracket. 

Perhaps you should have kept quiet about this?

Does that mean that you can complain about the sheep defaecating in the wrong crystal clear streams and waters?

:-}

Its highly unlikely that the same level of care and pensions will be available to us in our old age, and everyone under the age of 45 who went to university had to take on large amounts of debt to pay for the privilege.

No one’s mentioned so I’ll ask, was there much chalk on Striding Edge? It’s as bad as graffiti these days.

I really do think that's a good idea. All ages mind. 

Promotion of the Rhinog range has been pretty relentless since I started reading C&R.  Folk go, most don't return on account of the hard work required.

I was at a conference on historic buildings and one of the speakers put up a slide of a swastika carved into the timber of a building near Dunkeld. After a discussion where there was general unanimity for removing it on the ground that it was offensive and recent courtesy of visiting scum, the speaker said it dated from the mid-late 1940s and that a PoW camp for German soldiers had been nearby, and the PoWs worked an exercised there. An example of graffiti with real historical interest.

Unlike tagging Striding Edge or the initials carved into the top of the Wasted Time/Tacitation buttress at Kyloe we found after a group of 'troubled youngsters' had left. 

hindsight? in the 50, 60, 70s could people really predict the massive leaps technology that would see education costs rise, healthcare improve, human longevity and more? How many people in the 1960s were told they'd need a private pension? They were promised the state would look after them, don't blame the boomers that was just government policy of the day.

The problem, controversial as it is the continued wisdom of lower basic taxes, 19% coming soon. The gap between expectations and cost of services will widen further. 

I'm sure one of them will have been Isaac from the John Muir Trust.

I'd be interested in how many of the over 60s, or whatever a boomer is, even went to University. I also don't think NHS geriatric care in the UK has ever been anything to be proud of.

A lot of over 60s from a middle class background did very nicely for themselves, those from working class backgrounds less so. For every 'gold plated final salary' pensioner there will be dozens in fuel poverty living in rented accommodation.

Even if the old were a Borg like mass that rose up every 4 years and all voted Tory (which I think is stretching it a bit), the over 60s are probably around 30% of the voting public. (We're currently about 1000 'working age' to 285 over 65s).

What are the other 70% doing, now they have their hands on the 'levers of power'? The issues in the UK aren't exclusively down to the crumbly bus-pass brigade.

I don't think many people chalk up to walk up Striding Edge.

The young aren't renowned for the highest GE turnouts. If they don't vote, they can't complain could be one argument. 

You've spotted the joke, well done.

Well, yes. This would obviously be an absurd claim, but 67% of over 70s who voted in the last election did vote Tory, as opposed to less than 30% of under 40s. The less said about the implications of Brexit for those who voted for and against it the better. Unfortunately there is a voter turn out problem with younger people, who really have noone to blame for that except themselves.

Anyway, this is all getting well away from the point I was clumsily trying to make earlier, which is that since we all feel entitled to access the hills whenever is convenient for us we can't get upset if we find them crowded. And for all of those grumbling about how empty it was in their day and the solitude they used to be able to enjoy - well good for you. Cherish those memories and reflect on how your presence might be impacting the other people around you now.

I'm not receiving a pension - yet. Plus a good chunk of what I will eventually receive will be from my personal pension.

Due to being an athlete in my youth my general health is far better than most people even in their late 30's, so visits to the GP/hospital are as rare as hens teeth.

By the way, didn't I pay for your education - note, I have no children so my taxes all went to pay for the children of others.

Edit - And I never went to Uni - Tory Councils round my way made it financially impossible for people like me (working class) unless I worked as well. There wasn't even the OPTION to have a loan.

How many of them will actually pay anything off  - and you always forget the extra income that a University education brings.

In my age group only about 7% went to University, nowadays it's more like 50%. So a heck of a lot of people for whom University wasn't an option (and who left school at 16) are now paying for the University education for the current generation. Do you think that's fair - or do you only notice what suits you ?

By the way - wait until mortgages hit 15% interest - that's what my generation got hit with.

You don't need to be old to think a place is crowded. It can apply to any tourist attraction.

Milling around in a big crowd ontop of Snowden; is it any better than milling around a busy place in London?

You can't have it both ways - the people who have extra income due to a degree pay their loans off. But then again, it is true that in real terms wages haven't gone up since the credit crunch, so there's plenty of over-qualified younger people working for very little.

Most of my generation don't have mortgages because house prices adjusted for inflation are well over twice what they were in the 70s. We rent from older people who got on the housing ladder before wages stagnated. Do you think that's fair?

Edit: Ps I just looked up the student grants that were available from 1962 onwards. If you're not claiming your pension yet you would have been eligible.

Slightly disingenuous. Mortgage rates may have been 15% for a time, but MIRAS reduced the actual rate considerably. 

And of course, when you and I were taking out our first mortgages, it was possible to buy a house with a 2.5 times earnings mortgage, and banks wouldn't lend more than that. I remember the shock when I first saw a 3 times earning mortgage. Many first-time buyers now could only dream of affording a house with a 2.5 times earnings mortgage. Even in the cheapest region - the north east of England - the average price for a first-time buyer is about £150k, requiring a much higher multiplier than we could ever have imagined. Quite how young people in average jobs manage to buy property these days is beyond me, particularly in expensive regions. 

Not Isaac, but Ian and John also working for the John Muir Trust.

Not sure I follow this, my childhood council was Tory/independant but not sure this had any effect on my ability to continue my education, although they were unable to block the move to comprehensive schools. Why did you need a loan? There were no fees and OK it would have been tight living of the grant at the time, but no problem with a part time/summer job. If like me you wanted to do something like engineering then there were plenty of scholarships/bursaries out there as well. I actually left Uni. with considerably more money than I started (more than enough for a deposit on a house) with no financial help form mum or dad.

Edit. It would be stretching it a bit to class my childhood as working class, but both my parents finished their education at 16. Mrs J's childhood was definitely working class and she had the same experience as me. The last 8 years of our teaching career we effectively spent at the school she went to a a child, our major frustration is that those working class kids no longer have the opportunities the she and her sister had. 

And during the 70's and 80's average wage growth was 3% above inflation. 

Nope. They are paying handsomely for the privilege.

With regards to the increased salary. The graduate premium has, as would be expected, dropped as the numbers going into HE has increased. With 7% it counted for something but with 50% not so much. Jobs which used to be "A level" are now degree and if you want to stand out then you need to cough up for a masters.

it's usually ashes rather than chalk ...

Don’t worry, I complain about the sheep regardless of where they defecate. More their propensity to destroy virtually all and any vegetation that gets me. 
 

Also I work in the (sheep free) Arctic

Nobody is saying everyone must enjoy it. But, you know, it’s kind of fun, so lots of people do.

I agree and must admit that it’s a shame that it can be tricky to find. But moreso I’d rather share the joy with others.

Depends why you’re there I guess. I’ve had great days on busy crags (often when I’ve done something hard for me) and just as many bad days on empty crags. Hence not a fan of busy crag = bad day. It doesn’t need to be!

You're 50 - I'm 66. Rules changed over time, for the better thank heavens.

Also I went to school in Worcester City, with education the responsibility of the COUNTY Education Authority - both of which used (more likely abused) the system of means testing to ensure they spent as little as possible. As a by-product they probably intended to make sure that "their" nice middle class offspring didn't have to mix with anyone working class when away from their parents.

I still don't get the argument. You got more of a grant to go to university if you were from a poorer background, hence I got a reasonable amount, but not a full grant. My parents quite often sent me back to university with payment in kind, such as food in profusion, and knitted pullovers etc.

You're older than me, and so are my brothers. They got more grant than me. So you should have been able to get the same. They were starting to reduce the grant by means of not increasing it inline with inflation in my time. I remember my brothers were a lot better off.

I managed to find work every holiday. Initially working on farms and the like, and working as an extra postman local to home at Christmas (pissing the regulars off, as I used to see how fast I could do it, and running it for a fair bit of the way, even though I was given the longest routes around the Holme valley, up and down dale). At the end of 3rd year I sacrificed going to see practice in a vet surgery, and instead worked driving an electric truck round an electric motor company in Huddersfield, delivering parts. I earned a lot that year, and felt guilty for not doing more clinical stuff, but it was fine in the end.

I got jobs in virology labs in Glasgow and in Boston, Massachusetts for a couple of summers, which paid enough, and I scraped enough for the latter airfare. My parents did not help me with any of that.

So I do not understand why, if you are older, that you were not in the better position of getting a better grant, just as my much older brothers were: Plus you could have worked to supplement your grant.

Current University students do pay for their education - but only when their income exceeds a certain figure.

The thing is, it isn't a "boomers had it easy" or "todays students have it hard" situation - it's much more nuanced than that.

People born post war and up to the mid 60's mainly didn't go to University, but those who did mostly came from the already well off classes. So the "workers" got stuffed then, and have less money around to subsidise their offspring at Uni now, whilst the well off can do so - leading to debts for the sons and daughters of the "workers", but a clear run with minimal financial baggage for those of the well off.

Similarly with housing - people who bought houses before the boom generally bought the right size house for their requirements, in fact usually the smallest they could afford with the thought that they might have to upgrade if and when further children came along.

Then in the boom, people (especially those younger ones, new to the market) bought the largest they could get, based not infrequently on questionable income figures, in the knowledge that prices were going up so they were going to make money in the long run - interest rates being much less.

But (overwhelmingly) most of those older persons who had bought earlier didn't want to move - being happy, or at least settled where they were.

Of course, those who were never able to save sufficient have never been able to afford their own home. Partly of course because when Thatcher forced the sell off of Council houses, some made a quick killing, but long term it forced up the cost of renting.

We now have the situation where the older persons have a home which has grown in value, but the owners don't want to move - and the place will probably be sold off when they die and get distributed between their heirs.

Then there's the second group - in a house far too big for their needs, complaining they've lost money when they haven't, and really the only reason houses went up in price was their stupid (and flawed) bidding war.

Then there's the youngest age group - unable to buy because their parents age group were greedy and inflated house prices.

I'll be 66 later this year, I had a full grant to go to university from a Tory County Council - the council may have administered the grants but it was a national policy at the time. I got the full grant (plus travel allowances) as my parents had a low income - the means testing meant that the grant was effectively inversely proportional to parent's income.

I need to update my profile but I agree things changed significantly for the better during those 14 years. However, most of the people I climb with mid week are in their mid sixties and agree with Doug. The major changes during those years were a move away from selective secondary schools and towards gender equality in higher education. If like my friends Doug passed their 11+ and is male, there was no financial reason for them not to go to University even if they were working class. The bias that  the 11+ had/has against social mobility is one of the reasons I'm appalled that some people want to return to it. The expansion in higher education numbers during the 70's/early '80's was almost entirely due to the proportion of females changing from less than 20% to nearly 50%. That was definitely a change for the better, Mrs J's mum who is 14 years older than you is still, rightly, annoyed that she didn't have the same opportunity as her brother. I also agree with the point that verteye makes that actually the grants available to students your age were more generous. 

As others have said another major factor is the jobs that now expect/require a degree. My grandad used to say that anyone needing to go to Harper Adams Agricultural College to learn how to managed sheep aged 18 was obviously a bit dim or didn't listen to their father. It's been a University for over a decade, I'm fairly sure they teach more than feeding sheep during a 3 year degree, but it will still cost you 27k before living expenses.

I do know quite a few people a silimilar age to you who also don't go to university, many of whom eventually got well payed jobs but who feel that those who did should have paid more tax. I have less of a problem with a "graduate tax" than the current system. Practically it would the same, graduates earning more than 28k would pay more tax rather than start to pay off the interest on their loans. It would have had two benefits, the likes of me would have paid more tax toward the end of our careers when we can most afford it and it wouldn't have adversely affected working class kids with their understandable aversion to getting into significant debt. An alternative simpler solution is to just raise the higher/additional rates of income tax/NI

28k

Is there any evidence to suggest this is any different now? I can certainly say that the average age of the first time buyer has increased by nearly 10 years over the last 25 or so years. OK, the average age that people start a family has also increased but I'm not sure this supports your assumption. 

In general which age group made this quick killing? 

Totally agree, my mum and Mrs J's mum are both living one in 4/5 bed houses. Not sure who is going to benefit when they eventually get sold off. Mrs J sister has retired with her own 5 bed house, my brothers have paid off their mortgages. The grandkids would benefit more from house prices being at a sensible level now  than inheriting say 80k to put down as a deposit in their 30's when mum pop her cloggs in 10 to 20 years time. IMO the only people who benefit from house prices being at silly levels compared to wages are those with multiple properties and I mean at least a million+ in value 

They won't exist until house prices drop? 

I'd now add grandparents but essentially agree. 

Yes which isnt very high. Now again lets go back to the minor detail which you ignore which is now a degree is a minimum requirement for many jobs which previously didnt need it. The value added by a degree has dropped massively now it has become a minimum requirement in many jobs.

Really? I didnt know that.

And yet again we get back to what the minimum requirement the automated system checks before handing it to HR to take further. I think we are going to come back here again.

citation required. 

True and of course the other impact is on the cost to the country as a whole in terms of housing benefits.

Got it. So whilst they were far superior to the youth of today when they brought the house according to their needs now they have been infected by the youths flaws to not downsize? Incidentally a conversation we had in the past couple of years with my dad but luckily he was not so superior not to listen and has moved to somewhere better suited to a widower rather than a reasonably large family.

Tad more complicated but sort of correct.

Probably something better suited for pulling out of a a graffiti good or bad thread? Personally I am conflicted since my instinct is shoot them on sight but then again there are some fascinating insights into ancient cultures provided by the long ago equivalents of todays arseholes aka the Piraeus Lion and so on.