UKC

Been quoted £4.5k, and the company want all the money upfront, paid by bank transfer.  When we tried, the bank declined the payment, flagged as high risk, mainly due to the name of the company delivering the services is different to the name of the company on the invoice.  We've done plenty of digging, and both companies do seem legit, although only started trading recently.

1) is it reasonable /normal practice to request 100% upfront

2) would paying in smaller amounts via debit cards make more sense

No. Yes.

In fact, I'd run a mile unless there is a very good explanation. Do you have a contract? Is it with the company asking for payment?

100% upfront?

Seems unusual to say the least. What protection do you have if they never turn up, or if they don't finish the work to your satisfaction.

I can understand a deposit, and a large payment in day 1 as soon as the kitchen units arrive, but not all upfront. 

I wouldn't pay all up front.....I'd give a fixed amount depending on who is supplying the fittings etc but not the whole figure. Id say that was unusual practice from their point of view although I'm mates with a few tradesmen and appreciate the issues they have when people don't/won't pay up...

As others have said the norm is a deposit then materials when they arrive and labour when finished on a small job.

100% up front,  no way.

On a side note it bloody anoys me when a bank refuses to let you spend your own money.  I had a right barny with mine over 10k for a second hand car that they thought was iffy despite a clean HPI check,  buying from a main dealer and the dealer also banked with my bank. Its my bloody money,  I will spend it how I want. 

Very odd. Usual is small deposit and payment when they deliver for kitchens 

if they are a Ltd company go on companies house and look them up 

I would not touch it with a barge pole sounds as though they are about to go bust. 

Don't touch this company with a barge pole. That's assuming you've got a barge pole!

Thanks everyone, very helpful.

Our bank said ‘got scam written all over it’.  The company/bloke reckons he’s had to order the goods  and his margins are that low he needs payment now.  Tomorrow I will inform him ‘sorry, will pay when the goods are in my house, and will pay for the Labour upon completion’ (he agreed to later part).  If he is legit, he should understand. 
 

BTW, other details have made our bank/us suspicious - use of stock images including reverse images (to throw people of the scent?), no reviews on Bark.  

No chance.

If they are recommended by somebody you know and trust, 10-25% in advance max, the rest on satisfactory completion.

If you don't have any links to them I'd pay zero in advance. 

I know what you mean, but on this occasion it looks like it might have saved the OP four and a half grand!

After what's all been said, I think I'd be inclined to get a different company in to fit the kitchen.

With a large kitchen company, I just paid 50% upfront, and 50% on completion. 

For me, this is fine as I don't see the company going bust, and 50% is a big enough retainer to ensure the quality is correct before they get paid the final installment.

Come on, you'd surely rather click a few extra buttons on the app and check the name matches up , or even have to confirm with a real human at the bank that you know what you're doing, than risk sending £10k to the wrong person!

I'm a firm believer in adding these extra approval steps with money just to avoid disaster / scam / theft / accidental sending. It's like the two keys on opposite sides of the rooms for the nukes in movies!

The issue is that if they were to let you do what you like without making you jump through the hoops they could probably be held liable for reimbursing you if it all went wrong.

I've mixed feeling about the current system as yes it's good that vulnerable people are getting their savings back after some arse swindles them but on the other hand you get some people who are just taking stupid risks because they know they'll get their cash back.

Something I think would save a fortune in fraud cases would be to get rid of instant bank transfers for large sums. This way it would take time for criminals to funnel away fraudulently obtained funds and accounts could be frozen before they get the cash in their hands.

I can see that a small business might have to buy the kitchen first, then fit it. If you change your mind, they are left with a kitchen, they might not be able to return. Ask, if you buy the kitchen, will they fit it? Also, there are long waiting times for some supplies and trades, plus inflation. All of which add to the uncertainty.

We've just had a kitchen fitted. The fitter recommended two well known companies, he's worked with a lot. We spoke with the companies, confirmed the design, ran it past the fitter and paid for the units. We then paid the fitter to fit them. He was also able to go back to the supplier, when they sent the wrong bits etc.

If you really want to go with your kitchen people, a credit card will give you more protection. You can claim under section 75, if there is an issue.

Just had a small kitchen put in by Wren. (good point of sale/design ok kitchen  - installation process poor). Paid a deposit then full amount nearer the installation date. 

Was one of the companies Howden’s? All kitchen fitters love them, for obvious reasons…

yeah, Howdens plus another large-ish but local one.

Aye Howdens are decent quality kitchens but I hate their shady pricing structure.

Ive ended our agreement with the bloke/company, and will be following a similar approach to dread-i.

You lot helped clarify my/out thinking, thanks. Other red flags included a complete lack of reviews (although he said it was a new company, it was set up 4 years ago), and he wanted the money paid into a separate company that had been dormant for last 5 years (checked on companies house).  

No. OK to get deposit upfront, balance before fitting, but not 100% up front.

No. Use credit card wherever possible.

The massive red line here is bank transfer.

There are several large national kitchen suppliers, and their methods (payment terms etc) are what sets the tone for the rest of the market. Anyone who tries to operate differently is a risk. Also, if he is a legit operator in high ticket items, he's VAT registered, and will have some access to short term credit from his bank. Especially for a £3.5k kitchen (plus £1k fitting).

Recently bought a kitchen from Howden's through a local tradesman. The tradesman had to pay "caash up" for the kitchen and I paid him eighty percent of the final price before fitting. I presume th eighty percent covered the cost of the kitched (to protect the tradesman) and the final twenty percent was his payment for the his work. 

This arrangement worked for me as it meant that I still had the bargaining power to insist little errors or imperfections were fixed before making the final payment. In the end I was more than happy with the work done and there was no need to hold back the final payment.

So, in my experience it is normal for companies (Howden's in my case) to ask for payment before releasing the kitchen.

We paid 25% and then the remaining 75% a week before it was delivered a couple of months ago.

It did feel strange for them to ask for all that money via bank transfer but my dad works for the company so just accepted it.

A bullet well dodged and an illustration of the good outcomes on this forum...!

Yup. As with Bulls Crack, we bought one recently from Wrens. Excellent sales / design service, then they handed it over to the installations team, who screwed everything up. Once we were introdiced to the fitter himself, we just arranged it all with him and ignored the installations office. If we relied on them to organise it, we'd still be waiting for our new kitchen and the fitter would be unemployed.

All paid for by credit card, but given Wren's size and success, they are unlikely to be going bust anytime soon.

Ahahaha no.

I'm all for checks etc but,  I had seen and test driven the car,  done the correct HPI checks,  the garage was a main dealer,  their account all tallied up and they banked with the same bank that I do but they still refused to release the money unless I was actually in the bank and had the keys and log book. As I was supposed to be collecting it after work when the bank was shut both myself and the Mrs ended up taking an afternoon off work to spend our own money. 

Same. Had to take two lots of 5K cash out recently and was presented with a right ball ache of questions, queries and warnings. Second time I just told the woman on the counter coke’s much cheaper bought in bulk and my dealer doesn’t accept Apple Pay.

We got our Kitchen from IKEA. They were very helpful with the design, the cost was way, way lower than the other big brands and the person designing it even recommended we don’t buy their worktops as “you can get one cheaper and better from a worktop company” (which we did). 

We had it fitted by a local tradesman, who did a lovely job and took all cash on completion (think we might have paid him £500 or so deposit).

Also any leftover bits and bobs (like the under cupboard lighting we forgot to tell the fitter about!) we took back and got a refund. 

Quality wise their appliances are fine, if unspectacular (but of course you can buy better quality separately)  and the cupboards and drawers fine, the solid wood worktop that we bought separately defo makes it look a bit more expensive than it really was. 

Although they’re never going to be high end supplier, IKEA kitchens are great if you’re on a budget or not planning to live in your property long-term.

ok that is extreme I take it back!

Absolutely do not pay up front.

If they have confidence in their staff and product the most they will ask for is a deposit of perhaps £500.

If their cash flow is so bad they need the money up front, that is a major red flag.

The fact that you're worried should be enough of a warning.

Once they have your cash there is zero incentive for them to do the job right, and snags will not be put right at the end of the job as they have your money. 

The reviews are probably not legit.

What are the obvious reasons?

Ditto.

Only real problem we had with IKEA kitchens are that their “Belfast”-style ceramic sinks have side flanges designed to sit atop worktops, so you can’t have worktops drain in to the sink as with a proper ceramic sink.  Otherwise the in-store person was excellent at helping design the kitchen and pick the parts and was 100% responsive and 0% pushy.  They also made no attempt to push us to buy on credit.  Delivery was efficient and on time, and we had local builders install it.  8 years later and if I cleaned it properly and adjusted a couple of doors, it would be as new.

Mine's from IKEA, I DIYed it.  Only thing I didn't enjoy doing was putting together lots of drawers!

One thing to bear in mind, though, is that like most IKEA stuff (though they're rapidly Anglicising) their designs are to European standards rather than ours.  For instance double beds were 140x200cm rather than UK 140x190cm.  This I quite like but they seem to have Anglicised the bed sizes now other than special order (boo!)

Where this impacts kitchens is thus.

First thing, the sizes are all totally different.  Wall cabinets are higher, and so if you've got a low ceiling you may want not to have top and bottom trim (I don't and it looks fine without it, just have side trim).  Cupboards are quite a bit deeper than UK standard.

Second thing is that they don't have a services void at the back, i.e. the cupboards go right to the wall.  This is good in terms of them being quite big, and is because in Europe you don't go and wind piping and wiring round the back of your cupboards like we do, instead you chase it into the wall and have a flush-to-wall tap that you then connect your sink to (for example).  I found this reasonably easy to work round, though - what I did was piped the units up on a standalone basis, attaching the pipes underneath, cable tied to the back legs, then connected them via pushfit flexi-hose to the actual services.

I got a good discount (as it was "end of line") and no pressure or anything.  Told them what I wanted, paid, picked it up at the "Full Serve" warehouse pre-loaded onto trolleys.  Quality is as good as anything else.  Price excellent.

Would definitely go with them again.

The one thing I'd avoid is the cheaper painted matt doors, I believe they mark easily.  Only go for those if you want to paint yourself.  Mine are the foiled gloss ones.

Singles too; we had to make a custom “mini-mattress” to fill the last 10 cm of Jr’s IKEA bed.  For what it’s worth, even as someone not of your giant stature I find a longer bed much better, and I’m all for their approach.

I can’t emphasis enough how much difference it makes to me to be able to go in, choose what I want and buy it without some sales droid trying to apply pressure. They can’t pressure me in to something I don’t want, and if I can’t buy what I want I start to get a bit pissy - hard as that is to believe. 

I’m still hoping for a law banning meal deals…

They only provide the prices to the fitter not the end customer, and are happy to give discounts to the fitter that aren’t reflected on the bill of materials they provide to you and the fitter. So the fitter makes money on the fitting, and on you buying the kitchen from Howdens. 

For this reason If you have a Howdens kitchen and need a new door or some other spare they won’t sell it to you, or even quote you a price as they only deal with fitters.

All this aside, they are very good quality.
 

Yes, their sizings and standards are often a bit odd. 

The plinth under an IKEA kitchen in much smaller than U.K. ones, so we had to hunt around for ages to find a heater that would fit under our cupboard as most are too high. Found one in the end and it works great.

Agreed. Lack of pressure was a big plus for us. None of that “if you can say yes to this today I can give X discount” 

Can’t stand all that nonsense.

Sounds like you've got a plan. The usual is a deposit (10-20%) - then interim payment when the kitchen arrives - then remainder when everything is done to completion. I know from experience that 'I'll pop back and finish that off' rarely happens unless there is a financial incentive to do so.  

Just be aware that a very common practise with kitchen companies that a 50% ish up front payment civers cost of units etc. The remainder paid to fitters is for the fitter. Thus you don't actually have a contract with the fitter.

Also be aware that it is, in essence, illegal for kitchen fitter to do electrics unless they are a qualified electrician. The electrics needs signing off registering with local authority. They may say, no worries you will get a ticket, and you do. Doesn't mean it is done right. Same for gas more obviously. 

Stay in control. Buy kitchen, employ fitter, spark and gas. 

I’ll do it for £3k cash upfront. see you after I’ve been for coffee in chamonix! 
having had the experience of the cowboy builder I had, I’d never pay up front, I now pay materials direct using their account and by the day with a ‘bonus’ at the end if the they work to the agreement. 
I’ve explained my reasoning to a few, some walked, other took it - I got a good job done. Those who aren’t interested, are the ones who know they are unreliable.  
 

Don't just agree a price, agree a payment schedule for building works. For a job like a kitchen 50:50 seems fair *if* you already know and trust them. They need to know you have the money and that their materials etc will be covered. You need to know that they will finish the job and any snagging etc

If they are paid 100% upfront do you think they'll come bag to fix the snags if the job was more difficult and longer than they expected, or that they will even do 100% of the job?

As long as they do most of the job it's a civil matter, a contract dispute, about who agreed what. So if they never actually finish and you already paid everything, they have nothing to lose, a cowboy's golden ticket.

Another thing to watch. One of them goes back to the van to tidy tools or make a call about another job or somesuch. While bloke number 2 is in the van bloke 1 says he can negotiate a better price but only if you sign up *now*. He makes a call to the office and argues a price for you or receives some special deal to offer you (but actually speaking to his mate in the van )  but only valid *now*

Anyone who says the deal is only valid right now, phones his mate in the van like that, or asks for 100% up front can get out of my house immediately and foxtrot Oscar

Ask the kitchen company if they accept 50% payment then the other 50% on completion (including all snagging!). If they say no to that, then you have your answer - go elsewhere.