UKC

Started climbing with my son at the wall. He's 50kg, I'm 78kg. He's thirteen.....sensible and bright fella.

We use Grigri plus with it's panic lockoff being a useful safety feature, and a ohm so he doesn't slam into the wall if I fall.

I've also had friends back up the breaking hand for a few climbs when he belays.

One time today, I wizzed down pretty fast when he lowered me. He seemed to hit the sweet spot where max velocity occured without the auto lock off kicking in. 

Rope diameter was 9.2mm....maybe part of the issue. We changed to a 9.8mm.

I got him to stand further out from wall to add friction and no more speedy lowers occured. 

Was wondering if adding a frieno karabiner may be an extra bit of friction to help?

When I made the speedy decent he had struggled to hold the braking hand tight enough. 

I had assumed the Grigri plus wouldn't allow the rope to go beyond a certain speed.

Anyway. Any helpful thoughts?

Ive considered " don't let your son belay you" but we're quickly learning and improving and think we're being safe.

He wasn't preventing the cam action either....just hit the sweet spot.

In reply to im off:

it definitely help with skinny ropes, I use it a lot, specially with heavier climbers, adds another friction point. I’d recommend 

In reply to im off:

Try it and see, maybe someone could lend you one?

Be aware you can clip the rope the wrong way in the extra bit and then it can become uncliped unexpectedly. Also there are 2 versions, the Freino Z has the extra gate the other way round so you can flip it round through a new style stop, I'd expect you want to consider the standard Freino for GriGri.

Worth a try!

In reply to im off:

Every child is different and what they are capable of will vary.

Saying that, my son was belaying me at 10 (him not me). Always used a standard gri gri with a 9.5 + rope.

To begin with, when he lowered me I would hold onto the other rope to control my descent and give him some guidance. Sometimes he would be tethered down, but it depended on where we were and what was available. This is outside as well as inside.

After a year or so, I was confident enough of his belaying to let him get on with. At 12, he was belaying me on big sport routes in France and Spain as well as in sea cliffs in the UK.

Mishaps will happen. They’re children and inexperienced to start with. It’s understanding what could go wrong and being prepared.

CB

In reply to Ramon Marin:

Yeah I'll get one and try. Cheaper than broken legs 😂

In reply to Climber_Bill:

Good to know others think it's ok. Ta. I think both of us have a lot to gain from climbing together. 

In reply to im off:

He needs to learn & practice controlling the descent with the lever rather than with the brake hand. Common mistake.

In reply to im off:

Not tried with a frieno but did climb with someone not used to lowering someone as heavy as me (with a grigri) who really struggled to make it smooth without going too fast. A quick solution was to put a carabiner on their leg loop and direct the rope through it, with them holding the rope up high. They said it made things so much easier, and my descents became much more pleasant! I imagine a frieno does a similar thing to this, so consider trying this and see if it helps?

In reply to im off:

My son and I started to climb together when he was about the same age. My belay device of choice was the Edelrid Eddy - it's "anti-panic" feature pre-dates the GriGri 3 and having climbed with both I'm much more convinced of the Eddy. It's heavy and not cheap but those are a modest trade-off for confidence in your belayer! 

In reply to im off:

Revo - you get to 4m/s and it stops 

In reply to im off:

Does the ohm help much? My teen is 30kg lighter than me as flies when I fall, no issues so far, but we're just starting out very controlled so far.

In reply to Alex Bevan:

I haven't taken a proper fall yet. I hear they work well. 

In reply to Alex Bevan:

I use an ohm with my main climbing partner who is exactly 30kg lighter. A big fall may result in her being lifted off her feet slightly. Normal falls are fine.

In reply to Alex Bevan:

I've been using an Ohm with one of my climbing partners who is 3 1/2 stone lighter than me. She found it much easier lowering me with it attached.  I took an admittedly quite small fall which she barely noticed.

In reply to JMAB:

Second this.  I regularly do it when I have to lower a much heavier person.  I'm not a kid or a lightweight and I don't absolutely need the extra friction. I can control things fine with the lever, but a carabiner on the leg loop definitely makes it easier to lower with control.

In reply to im off:

When the fast lower occurred was your son standing too close to the crag/ wall?

OHM instructions are quite specific about standing 1m out and 1m  to the side so as to create an angle in the rope  so the ohm can grap .

In reply to Alex Bevan:

A friend who is a small slim woman (and whilst I'm not particularly tall, I'm otherwise the opposite to those things!) has an OHM. We normally sport climb together and Sarah has definitely caught me a couple times with no drama. And she has definitely lowered me many dozens of times without ending up up at the first bolt. Not cheap but we'll worth it for mixed weight teams, particularly on diddy UK sports routes where the ground is often not far away.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Yeah he was stood about 2 or 3 m out.....luckily or I'd have landed on him.

I suspect I'd reach max speed the system would allow which felt fast but nowhere near a freefall.

In reply to im off:

Other things to consider are intentionally adding a dog leg by clipping the first draw of the adjacent route (rope goes from belayer, 1st clip in adjacent route, 1st clip in your route then as normal) and putting twists in the rope before you lower off

In reply to im off:

Surely the big problem with your incident is simply that your son failed to 'hold a fall'*?  It makes no difference if it was you or someone his own weight falling, he should have been able to hold the fall because his mass is the critical mass in the system. Of course, he'd then have been pulled towards the wall because he's lighter than you, but he should have been able to hold his own weight in a fall.  We can only assume that he held the handle open and the device has an inherent lack of internal friction in that state and he simply wasn't strong enough to hold the rope.  Theoretically this is an incredibly bad thing (the device cannot hold a fall if held open), and he should actually be using a 'normal' device, or an autolocker with a) higher internal friction and/or b)'locking when the dead rope is held tight' facility.

*I know you were lowering, but 'gradual falls' can create an identical situation.

In reply to Toerag:

I think the use of a Frieno is to simulate  "...an autolocker with a) higher internal friction..." 

In reply to Toerag:

Erm. Not to sure. 

My thinking with using a Grigri rather than a normal belay plate is that in a normal fall it would auto lock and is safer for someone learning.

I think I was probably not going to go any faster and if did, it would kick in the lock off.

I guess there just isn't a 100% safe way of doing it with someone learning. Certainly having someone back up the belayer would be best. I have been getting him used to a normal belay plate too as I think it's important to get how it works. But if he cocks up on one of them, there's no fail safe.

I get that Grigri descent speed should be dictated by the handle and didn't drill this home maybe initially. I've used it with my other 2 kids over the years and not had a problem. I think the thing different was a 9.2 rope at the weekend rather than a 9.8. 

In reply to im off:

Unless he has some sort of cognitive/learning disability he's certainly old enough to learn how to use a traditional device properly.

In reply to im off:

Something I don't think anyone has mentioned yet..

I don't know if the design has changed, but I have an old Frieno kicking about somewhere and it's a simple twist-lock, double action (twist - open).  Personally if I were going to use a twistlock carabiner to attach a belay device or descender to my harness instead of a screwgate I'd want it to be triple action (slide-twist-open).

In reply to im off:

Is this lowering with the OHM in the first bolt? We've not had any issues with our lads lowering adults when belaying with Gri+ and OHM in play (just remember to take the OHM out on the way down if pulling ropes).

Though we have found the Gri+ handle to be super sensitive (combined with a new rope), takes a bit of getting used too.

In reply to im off:

It's probably not what you want to hear, but this is an accident waiting to happen. It is not a weight issue. I am 80+kg and my main climbing partner is 48kg; she doesn't even get catapulted into the air when I fall, because she's an ace belayer. The issue here is you haven't taken the time to teach your son how to belay properly and he is belaying incorrectly. It wasn't simply a quick decent: you almost had serious injuries. It's not an issue a carabiner can fix. My advice would be to climb in a three and coach your son more carefully, or get an instructor to do so. Best of luck to you both and be careful.

In reply to John Kelly:

I tried a Revo...it seemed good for holding a fall but for just regular lowering it seemed really slick/ q fast. ....I went back to using a Click up.

In reply to Toerag:

No cognitive/ learning disability. Yes, he is using a traditional device also when not at the wall. I agree it's important to learn with a normal devise. The assisted breaking device does make me feel more comfortable on lead. He's only been at the belaying a few times and I've maybe thrown him in at the deep end abit. To be fair, I think we've probably cracked it mostly. 

But at the end of the day, if used right, a Grigri has some safety benefits over a normal devise..... otherwise they'd not get used so much. So he's going to get used to both.

You have a very direct turn of phrase sir 😂

In reply to C Witter:

No. I'm quite happy to hear anything really.

Yes, he did something wrong due to inexperience. 

Yes, maybe I'm lucky I didn't break my legs and mess his head up. 

I have considered getting an instructor to teach. I did this with one of my other kids. I did have pals around backing him up on a few occasions prior to this and done my best to teach.

I know you can cock up with the Grigri....say by holding the cam down. But i did think the Grigri+ would lock off beyond a certain speed hence why I was happy with the situation. 

We shall proceed with caution. Teething issues. 

In reply to ChrisJD:

Yeah, ohm first clip and Grigri. 

I've climbed with my other 2 kids at same age with Grigri+ and no ohm without problems. The thing that was different was using a 9.2 rope instead of a 9.8. Maybe this was a mistake. It was too slick. We went and bought a 9.8 and carried on (with a few times with a friend backing him up/ watching).

It's been useful to hear people's thoughts so thank you to all.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Good to know. I'll stick with the Grigri+.

In reply to im off:

Maybe it just needs you to have a pal around again for a bit longer. I've certainly been in the same situation before of handing the reins over a bit too quickly. Novices can "get it" and seem on the ball, but then still make mistakes when left alone. Hope it goes well, no one breaks their legs and you all have a good time

In reply to im off:

Should be OK if both you and your son read the petzl instructions / videos  thoroughly .

Not sure on this one, I have a gut feeling that the ohm slowing down the lower could affect the  safety features on the gri gri. It is probably a lot easier to hold in the sweet spot ( or sour spot in your case) with a restrained  rope speed rather than at 9.81 m/ sec2.

I would suspect that the grigri has been tested on the standard set up of a few quick drawers and lower off and not with all possible combinations of other manufacturers products.

Petzl might comment if they are following this thread.

In reply to im off:

Ours was a new 9.8, without any dry coating.

And that still felt a bit slick out the bag (well compared with our old furry single); glad I didn't go thinner! (I ummed and arrred for a good while)

In reply to im off:

With the gri-gri + ohm combination and the fact that there isn't really _that_ much weight difference between you, my gut says that your son needs to practice fine control of the gri-gri lever, assuming that the newer one you use works somewhat similarly to the gri gri 1 and girigiri 2 I have used in the past, there is a huge difference in friction over a relatively short movement of the handle and lowering someone heavy in control is helped a lot by getting the handle in just the right spot for your specific rope and weight ratios.

short answer: It's a question of belay technique, not varying the equipment.

In reply to im off:

As others have said, weight difference makes no difference. Your weight does. And no, the device has no max speed. At all opening angles, it multiplies the friction given by the belayer's hand. With the multiplication depending on open angle and rope. Small hand plus thin rope..... 

The lock off just overrides the belayer if they panic and respond by pulling harder on the handle (a natural response) rather than reducing pressure on the handle. It effectively open just before it clicks

In reply to im off:

Or they may have pulled hard enough to overcome the antipanic stop, if this had not been explained to them 

In reply to im off:

Your son needs to understand that the amount of squeezing of the rope by the cam in a Gri Gri is variable (not just on/off), and this should be fully under the control of the belayer. This needs to be both understood and physically practised. If  the rope is running too fast, or the brake hand needs to work too hard, more of the camming action should be engaged by letting the lever come back up a little. I suggest some more precise coaching of your son in this.

If convenient, abseil practice using the Gri Gri (with safety rope backup belayed by you) would also help with getting the feel of "riding the edge" of the friction, and making small adjustments as necessary.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Yeah. I wondered about him abseiling to get the feel. With back up of course.

Ta.

In reply to im off:

Another vote for frieno.  It’s an amazing bit of kit for exactly this problem.

In reply to im off: In my experience, and as others have said, the GriGri doesn’t kick in beyond a certain speed. I do think rope diameter is a key consideration. Great that you are reviewing practice/seeking advice as it is a key topic for parents who want to climb with their kids and for climbers introducing partners/friends. The grigri does seem to be considered a bit of a fail safe in this respect but it has its own complexities. You know this but ca canny, it can be a lot more than broken legs☹️ 

In reply to im off:

You probably won't be surprised, but it may be of interest to others reading the thread

youtube.com/watch?v=jKe72j_mBlU&

In reply to CantClimbTom:

He's good this guy. Not seen this one but others. Jesus....it raises a lot of concerns with the Grigri if not used right. Maybe a learner belayer is safer with a normal belay plate as they're easier to understand. 

I've organized some belay teaching help for my case. 

I wonder if there's more belay accidents with grigris or normal devises. Nothing's fully safe I guess. Even experienced belayers can cock up too.

Think my climbing grade has just dropped🤣

In reply to im off:

Maybe ask him to stand directly underneath you at all times as you climb and always wear crampons (the climbing wall will understand). He'll be much more attentive with the braking hand then

In reply to im off: I’m an advocate of the ATC Pilot (or similar devices). Work pretty much like a standard plate but with an added level of safety. Easy to learn and use and less complex than a grigri. 

In reply to Neil Morrison:

I know a couple of people who teach RCI that recommend this too..

In reply to im off:

I was going to make mention that a sprung sticht plate is best (occasionally on eBay), precisely because it needs a brake hand it doesn't breed complacency and has good controllable friction for lowering. I thought people would take the mickey, but  feeling braver to mention now the ATC pilot has been mentioned and we can question the great GriGri 

In reply to im off:

Well ...tried with frieno.....thought it added abit more security.....it just seems to add abit more friction on the lower if he gets the tension on the handle not quite right.

So for anyone wanting to know....think its a useful addition for us for abit anyway.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Yeah, I do agree learning the simple way is important and we're using a normal plate to.

Ta.