UKC

I bought a Berghaus Waterproof jacket the other day, £69, seemed fair enough for what I got, and has made me marginally less scruffy for the time being.
But I noted some thing called "fixed for life" and I thought oh thats handy in 7 or 8 years when the arm has got ripped  by my bike chain,  as happened to my last jacket, I can get it repaired. Then I caught site of my self in the mirror, and thought you stupid fool, look, there are "quotation marks", there will be pages of small print behind the trite add slogan. I sighed, my shoulders dropped, and I moved wearily on, the pleasure of my smart new jacket, slightly diminished, crushed by my world weary cynicism.

Anyway I moved on with life until I noticed this review on UKC, https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/clothing/legwear/berghaus_mens_and_womens_m... , which I thought rambles on for a bit too long IMHO, about a pair of keks, but hey ho, the couple who wrote it look to have had a fun time, so all good. But then I noticed;

 

Ethics and Environment

These trousers come under Berghaus's "Fixed for Life" scheme via Repairhaus. Basically, you cover the cost of sending the trousers back to Berghaus and they'll fix them for free.

and my overactive mind took me down the worm hole of terms and conditions and small print .

There is more terms and conditions, but the lifetime is pretty clearly laid out here https://www.berghaus.com/product-lifetime-guarantee.list , and I was actually pleasantly surprised that they think a jacket should last, Up to 6 years, but the I must say the " up to" does worry me, possibly the "Up to" infers it will be less if you happen to go for a walk more than once a month, who knows?

But the bit that shocked and appalled me was that they think a Mid/ Large Sac should last up to 4 years. Seriously, I think a decently priced non technical, non ultralight "sac" should last over 20 years, and still have possibility of repair. I have a Karrimor Airspace, which is still going strong, after 20 years, a zip on the back pocket failed 10 years ago, because I over stuffed it, but I could have it mended.

But I am not surprised by all this guff, a few years ago I was chatting with the Sales Director of a premium brand and he quite calmly told me their expected lifetime of a product is 12 months, and went on to justify this. I just nodded and went along with it, whilst thinking you slimy git.

I expect my Aiguille Rucksack to out last my lifetime, and it is performing admirably so far, but oddly one never seems to see reviews of these in the press, despite them investing heavily in sponsoring Craig Matheson https://www.aiguillealpine.co.uk/info/aiguille-supports/ , top tip, get an Aiguille Chalk Bag, :-0

So when you buy kit, and it comes with lifetime guarantees and the like, what is your anticipated lifetime of for example, a Rucksack?

Answer, 'it depends'. In the old lifetime guarantee Karrimor days I knew a chap who used to use his big sack to carry loads of fossils (rocks) around the Dorset coast. It lasted over a year but gave up the ghost not not after (and was replaced IIRC).

I have some old Lowe alpine sacks that are over 30 years' old but they don't get out much these days so will easily last another 30.

My go to aiguille sack is as light as I will go, so still tough cordura and will surely last a good few years yet. If I used it every day then less so.

The concern is the manufacturer's attitude that 12 months is reasonable. That's just profiteering.

I've got a Black Diamond rucksack I've been using for a good 20 years, probably more, and it's only just starting to get holes in it.

Annoyingly, though, my Arcteryx rucksack of similar vintage, that hasn't had anything like as much use, will probably soon end up in the bin, as the PU lining on bits of it is going nastily sticky.

I’ve an old berghaus sac that had a decade of hard use, cragging twice a week, both days at weekends, carrying coal to bothies, overloaded on alpine trips. It was getting frayed with one should strap seam starting to pull away.

I retired it to a shopping bag where it gets stuffed full of milk, orange juice, veg etc twice a week, where it takes a good bit of hump to get on your shoulder and walk home. 

Two decades later it still has not died!

Patagonia are currently fixing for free the zips on my 12 year-old fleece.  They also mended, without question, my Black Hole bag when it got mangled by an airport baggage handling system, which certainly wasn't down to any defect in the product.

My old Berghaus Rock Star is now over 30 years old! Had daily use for several years as a school/Uni bag for carrying books/etc and weekend use as a climbing sack.

One repair (snagged it on a rock somewhere) and part of the back and shoulder straps are very frayed, but still gets use as an occasional climbing bag.

Patagonia will fix pretty much anything of theirs to keep it going. I still use a lot of their clothing that I bought 20+ years ago and a few items that I bought 30+ years ago. Not saying it all looks particularly Gucci mind...

You seem to be confused about what a life time actually is, almost all goods a guaranteed for a couple of years (varying by type of goods) based on consumer legislation around faulty goods.

So even companies that don't advertise a "Lifetime guarantee" will be legally obliged to remedy faulty goods. "Faulty" means manufacturing or material faults, i.e. the companies fault, hence they will fix it. But a company isn't obliged to fix accidental damage, like a rip in a brand new coat, though most outdoor companies will these days with varying levels of cost passed on to the consumer. The repairability of anything made of fabric decreases over time so there becomes a point where the cost to repair the item is more than the customer or company are willing to pay and it'll be deemed to have reached the end of it's lifetime. This is mostly due to a high labour cost, so if you posses the skills it's often possible to do it yourself for a fraction of the cost as most people don't attribute a cost to their own time.

"Lifetime" however is not a length of time it's a combination of time and use. Any climbing PPE soft goods have a shelf life of 5 years, not because they can survive 5 years of use but because materials degrade over time regardless of use. As do the fabrics used in garments and packs, so the expected useful lifespan of a product varies massively a guide could wear through a jacket in a year/season that a rambler could wear for 10 years.

Packs tend to last a long time as they're less sensitive products, a few small holes in a pack is no big deal but in a waterproof shell it's effectively useless. They're also relatively easy to patch up as the fabrics are tougher and more receptive then lighter more flexible fabrics and they don't require waterproofing either.

In all honesty though, how long do you expect a jacket to last that's the price of a moderately nice 3 course meal?

I bought my 55L pod sac in autumn 2000 and I'm still using it as my standard cragging sac. It's also been on a few mountaineering trips including the Bugaboos. Had to replace a couple of the plastic attachment thingies, but otherwise going strong and I hope to still be using it in a decade. 

Got about 18 years out of some very expensive waterproof trousers, but in fairness they did have duct tape over a few holes. Those were used at least 3 times a week for over ten years because I wore them to commute around Vancouver by bike in the pissing rain. I tried to get them repaired at the end but was told the fabric had died. 

I've also got a down jacket from MEC that has to be twenty years old now and is still perfectly functional. No doubt it isn't as warm as it used to be, but it doesn't need to be because I'm no longer willing to spend a day standing around belaying in the snow.

So what you're saying is that I can't send off my 20 year old deluge waterproof trousers for repair. Shame.  At £30, they're probably my best value for money purchase ever. They now leak but with some new seam tape they will last a few more years.

Back when I was 15 I bought my first rucksack...Karrimor guarantee for lifetime of owner.... they've repaired it free couple of times...still got it, still works 41 years later😊

Au contraire, I am not confused, I recognise precisely what is meant, but I suspect that many purchasers do not, and the sellers take advantage of this confusion.

Something that does grate a little is that many large manufacturers dispense free or heavily discounted clothing to "influencers" in this case to outdoor professionals and people in the industry, in the belief that "punters" will see them and buy their product, or even review these products for magazines or websites. Many would say this is all just PR and fair enough, but I would suggest that magazines and websites who seek my trust, could and maybe should purchase gear from smaller producers who cannot afford the largesse of larger companies, but do supply sometimes better kit, and this would give me greater confidence in the aforesaid reviews.

I could name one very well known climber who drove his clothing sponsor to distraction by insisting on wearing clothing till it feel apart (including an ancient and very tatty duvet), rather than the current models that they wanted him to showcase.

You have to remember that sponsored athletes are just an alternative stream of advertising. Manufacturers can pay UK or the magazines, sponsor events, or (often the cheapest option), give a bit of free kit to people who are already getting filmed/photographed doing things and have your brand associated with their achievements.

Sponsored athletes are just the tip of the iceberg. Guides and Instructors and others get free or heavily discounted kit. I was chatting with an instructor about a pair of approach shoes we both wore. I always have at least two pairs on the go, a pair for the hill that lasts about a year and the old ones I use for knocking about. They are now £175 a pair, but I can usually get them a bit cheaper. He told me he gets a 50% discount and buys a few pairs at a time. Gear manufacturers do not do this to support instructors, but rather so that punters will see them wearing their gear. This guy did not care how long it lasted it was so cheap to him.

Why don't you purchase it and donate it for testing? Then you could be confident the test was independent and you'd have the inner peace of knowing you'd contributed to the greater good of gear testing.

If you want rucksack stories I bought a Pod Alpine I think in the early 2000's... and within two weeks had put a tear in the bottom mucking around on a ledge at Avon of all places.  The point being that even in the good old days, stuff still got damanged in something like normal use

I ought to ask them about the delamination of my MixMaster & Core Skin jackets... I don't think there's a lot they can do, since the 'engineered semi permeable layer' (aka glue) has simply degraded, and the shell and inner fleece have parted company, and it's now a lot breezier than it used to be. Shame, as it's lovely. I don't think any of my other laminated fabric clothing has delaminated like this (and I have some much older than the MixMaster).

I think it might be worth asking Berghaus .....see  https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/berghaus_repair_service_-_top_mar... 

I wasn’t aware of the Mixmaster being laminated, you are talking about the pile-lined softshell, right? I have one, it’s got rather a lot of tape on it, some paint splatters and the hood lining was torn badly so I’ve cut it out. I use it for dirty outdoor work but I’d still use it for winter climbing, it’s the best jacket of that type I’ve ever owned. 

The face fabric is bonded to the fleece lining. There was a lot of talk of 'engineered membranes' at the time, to achieve the perfect mix of wind resistance vs permeability. Essentially, this was achieved by a layer of glue, and the natural gaps that were created by spreading the glue on the face fabric; a collaboration between Patagonia, Polartec & Tweave. On my jackets, that glue has deteriorated, causing the face and lining to separate, and be much less wind resistant.

That sounds like an earlier version, mine was never bonded, the lining was always loose. I forget the name of the earlier jacket, it was possibly even better. Mine is much less wind resistant than it was though, the outer fabric feels much thinner than when I got it.

Dimension?

Mine is certainly a MixMaster.