UKC

Basically, should I get one? 
 

Seeing as it is impossible to find any shop with demo models you can actually try out and play with, and that I don’t know anyone who has forked out for a pricey one, I’m bringing my question here. 
 

My main motivation would be for using to aid navigation in the hills. More than once I’ve been buggering around with maps, compass and my phone in a white out on a Welsh or Scottish peak trying to determine exactly which way is the right way off, only to be passed by someone happily striding along following a trail on their watch. Old school nav is great and all, but my lizard brain can’t help wondering if a shiny new toy would be worth it. 
 

I assumed for years that maps on GPS watches are shite and barely useable for actual hill nav. Am I wrong? Have there been big changes recently? While I usually pack paper maps with me, I tend to usually just look at OS (or OpenStreetMaps if overseas) on my phone for quick nav checks. Can a watch replace that now? A big downside of phone reliance is battery life and needing chargers. GPS Watch battery life and cold-weather resistance seem amazing.

I think I’m after something beyond just simple breadcrumb trails, so that puts me in the Garmin Fenix/Forerunner, Coros Vertix, Apple Watch Ultra category (ulp!). Any experience and feedback with these sorts of watches would be appreciated. I’m sort of also hoping that they’re not all that and I can save my money…

I have a Garmin Epix Gen 2, the mapping and usability of map features is about as good as you would expect from a 1.4" screen which is not very good, and not a great replacement for a map IMO. As an ancillary feature in my running watch however, i think theyre great.

Have you considered something like a Gamin ETrex 32x? Save yourself a few hundred quid compared to a watch and they're reportedly pretty good.

I have a fenix with talky toaster maps and, combined with a section of printed map for when you need the bigger picture, it's fantastic.

I have a fenix 6 pro. Talky toaster maps. planned courses on ridewithgps, hardly need the paper map for local trail runs. Still take a map and compass though... And use it in mountains. 

Same, Fenix 6 Pro with talky toaster maps. Always have descent route at least loaded onto it, if not whole route.

It's very easy to just check you're on route with a glance at your wrist every now and then, much less intrusive that stopping to faff with maps or phone. 

Fénix 6 pro here as well.  It's great to follow a path you laid out and want to follow.  It's great for the "get me to point X, please" (e.g. get me back to the trailhead). It's way too limited to try to look around in the map to see where you are and where you want to go as the screen and interface are far too rudimentary.

Gps watch plus cell phone app (I like locus pro on android) is a good combination.  Watch by itself might not be what you want 

To all the happy talky toaster maps users in this thread, could you describe how they are superior to the Garmin built-in maps? Have you considered using OS maps on the watch?

For context, I do not have a watch with maps, but I have considered getting one, so I'm curious.

Have got Garmin topo v2 pro OS maps on the 6x pro and works great at all zoom levels

Get a Garmin watch for sure, top tier

Wow ok. High praise for garmin. Seems like they actually do the job they claim to, then. 
 
Just looked at the talkytoaster maps - are they just a rendition of open street map vector data then? Seem nice and cheap.

Others have mentioned OS maps. I’m guessing it’s £100s to put 1:25k maps onto a garmin, right? Is it just garmins this would work on?

Also, is there much difference between the latest Fenxi 7/7Pro and the Fenix 6?? 

Thanks all. 

Same here.  The Fenix (6x in my case) and talkytoaster maps is a great combo.

Garmin maps are total wank.  They fact that they call themselves "topographic" is wildly hilarious.  In Europe, the maps have no contours or shading (cant speak for UK).  Talkytoaster were worth every penny!

Scroll down to the bottom of the page in the link (old article) for a comparison of the maps on my Garmin GPSMAP 66i.

https://the-gentleman-explorer.com/2021/02/27/at-35c-the-right-equipment-is...

Garmin tactix Amoled  user for the last month.  The included garmin maps are pretty good. Have os on my phone so flick between the 2. 

Yeah, short answer is that indeed a sports/smart watch should pretty much replace the phone for such things..

As for the maps, people seem to think that the Garmin has good maps, and I recall Suunto and Polar having good ones as well. As I only have a older apple watch 7, I can only comment on it. The standard/built-in map provided by Apple is not good. Luckily for a few quid, you can get WorkOutDoors -app, which has some really nice topographics maps, good enough for majority of hiking needs (also in the mountains, tested it in Lofoten a few years back). That app is not perfect, but continues to being developed (so getting better each iteration... roughly twice a year).

The major con with AppleWatch is battery life. The non Ultras will generally fair ok, for 6 to 8h day (if started with a full battery, and made some tweaks). Ultra or Ultra 2 will fair better. But the Apple watch is a smart watch with pretty good sport functions. Where as the others (Polar, Garmin, etc.) are sport watches with some smart watch features. They tend to have a longer battery life.

So maps and basic navigation needs should be covered by pretty much all of the options. It boils down on how you use it (multiday hikes or long day trips? amount of non-sport smart features for daily life etc). As pointed out, I have the Apple watch 7 which suits my needs... I only do day trips or sports, 'cause of two young kids. But I value the option to leave me phone home, if you go for a jog, walking the dog or  short mtb ride (mine is the cellular version)... and I also do like the regular smart features it offers (siri etc. for work and household stuff). Plus I'm a middleged dad, with limited time... and lazy to boost, so not a fittness driven sports-a-holic. If my circumstances were different, perhaps something like Garmin might have been a better fit.

One final note... just so you remember... You NEED an iPhone which you link the Apple Watch to... So if you don't have an iPhone, then you can't use an Apple watch either.

If you plan to use the maps regularly then the fenix 7and epix are better than the 6 as you can scroll the maps with the touch screen, I also think the screen is much clearer and has more detail on the epix, if money isn't an issue the epix pro 51mm also has the best battery life. 

I've had a Garmin 6X Pro for a few years now - used it on 3x Spine Races as well as everything else - solo big winter days out in poor weather, etc (paper map in my bag still, just in case but never needed).  It's amazing, such a valuable tool for instant feedback and reassurance that you are in the right place.

I was highly dubious at first as it is a big initial cost, but worth every penny.  I expect I'll get a Fenix 8 or whatever is the next latest top end watch in a year or so as an upgrade.

Another 6X pro here with Talky Toaster maps! Had it for the last few years and done countless runs with it and hikes of various lengths in all conditions using it for navigation and tracking. It's one of the only expensive "toys" I have that if I lost it I would buy another one immediately. The maps are perfectly adequate for navigating around a set route. I got mine from Go-Outdoors and used their price match with somewhere else so got it for a bargain at the time.

I like it so much I just treated it to a new orange strap for Christmas (not that the original black one is in any way worn out after the 2-3 years or so I've had it!)

Got a Garmin Epix Gen2 last year as a birthday present. Been very impressed with the mapping clarity on the Amoled screen (much higher resolution than the Fenix range), but I haven't yet used it in anger as a navigation tool.

The obvious limitation of any mapping on a watch is going to be screen size.

1. They're pretty much the same these days.

2. You can't.

AFAIK you can't put OS maps on Garmon watches.

The Garmin topo maps are fine for roads but just rubbish for off road.

Just looking at an area of woodland/hills near me on my watch. Garmin map has very few contours and no paths. Talkytoaster has paths, detailed contours, indication of where woodland starts/ends etc.

JimbotheScot said he has OS on his. Googling it says that Garmin product is an extra few hundred quid apparently. is this right??

One thing between the Fenix and the Epix is the clarity of the screen (brightness and map detail) is much better in the latter. This also means that battery life is reduced in the Epix. Can Epix users vouch for the battery life on long days such as a Cuillin all-dayer?

Cheers

I don't have an Epix I have the Fenix 6X, I haven't seen the (no doubt glorious) Epix screen in action, but I would say re: battery life is (in my experience) to take whatever Garmin say with a big pinch of salt (i.e. deduct 50% + of GPS battery life). 

When I did the Welsh 3000s I think it took me about 14 hours car park to car park. I'd trained for it for months and months using the Fenix 6X. Had the GPX route meticulously plotted out on the watch. Garmin says GPS battery life should be "up to 60 hours". Bags of time I thought, I could do 2 double Welsh 3000s with that battery life, with time to spare! How wrong was I. Starting with a 100% charge, by the time I was half way around I was probably down to about 40% charge and it looked like I was going to run out of battery. Cue me having to continually switch the watch between the no-GPS super battery saver mode then switching back to mapping when I got to a confusing bit, which generally added a lot more tension than I wanted. I had other means of navigation and I knew the route well, but it was v. disappointing and I wanted to make sure I tracked the whole activity (because obvs if it's not on Strava it didn't happen 😂). At the time people on here suggested it was because I had the map up continuously or something like that so it was draining the battery more than a static display might have (like the time).

Garmin suggests the Epix gen 2 battery life with GPS is "up to 30 hours" so I would not be surprised if you got less than 10 hours if you had it on mapping continuously, though I have no evidence of this - just basing it off the Fenix experience.

On top of this - when it comes to it the screen on the Fenix is perfectly adequate for mapping so I will always prioritise longer battery life over sexy screen, unless I could afford both then I would use the Epix for day to day and the Fenix for big days out!

One last thing - normal watch mode Fenix battery life is circa 21 days, Epix 6 days. In this day and age of charging my phone every day, the car a few times a week, my headphones once a week, my headtorch every run or every other run, etc., etc., etc., There is nothing as satisfying as picking the watch up after 2 weeks of use, ready to go out for a local run, and seeing it still has a week of charge left and about 20 hours of activity tracking left. The standby time of 21 days I think is pretty accurate in my experience.

Edit: It wouldn't have been the "no GPS mode" I changed it to to save battery, it would've been whatever reduces the frequency of GPS checks and turns the screen off or something like that, because I did track the whole route.

Garmin battery life claims:

https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/fenix66s6xpro/EN-US/GUID-694C4E14-D...

https://support.garmin.com/en-GB/?faq=SYHHBWNgOL2oz1ZJYiV8L6

Yes, should have mentioned this in my reply earlier.

If you "need" battery life over resolution, go Fenix - otherwise, go Epix.

See DCRainmaker's comprehensive reviews on this.

Well done on the w3000s

I'd definitely have taken a charging puck and power bank battery on a long long event. 

I used to get the 15 days on my fenix 6 on standby, but it's definitely dropped off recently. I usually charged one a week with activities, now it's every 5 days it so... Just in time for the menu button to fail. It's off today for replacement. It's 3 years old. 

Talky toaster definitely added detail when I put them on. And match v well with the route planning osm maps online at ridewithgps. 

Just throwing something else out there.. 
Have you considered a handheld GPS?

I upgraded my old GPSMap66s to the new GPSMap 67i about 6months ago.. 
Battery is fantastic. 

When climbing, its in the top of rucsac..
When walking, its clipped to shoulder strap..
When needed, I have it in hand, to check or walk towards checkpoint or feature etc. 

I have UK OS 1:25k data installed.

2day trip a few weeks back in the Cairngorms... InReach tracking plus route tracking.. back to van with only 40% used.

Yes, I have backups.. 
OS Maps on phone
Battery pack and cable.
Even a map and compass!!

Seems to deal with cold very well to - but I do have a lanyard for it to have around neck, inside jacket when temps have plummeted. 

Oh, and I thoroughly recommend the guys at www.gpstraining.co.uk for any questions or purchasing... always had great service and support. 

The latest epix in the largest size is supposed to have the best battery life as it has the bigger battery from the enduro, I have the fenix 7x and when fully charged with all the highest accuracy settings it says 28 days, with using mine for 1 to 2 hours a day I get around 16 to 18 days before I charge it, and it usually has a few days left. 

Thanks for this. Good to note. I wonder if anyone has had experience of using the solar editions of the Fenix? Could helpfully extend battery life? Or is it negligible during actual heavy GPS use?

The solar top up is negligible, it probably does extend the battery life but I haven't been able to notice any real world difference. 

My 6X is the Pro Solar Titanium version.  Hard to compare as I don't also have the non solar version... anecdotally I'd guess it doesn't do a great deal but nice to have.  I could be wrong! 

I have solar but not sure it really makes that much difference, esp in the UK. I think if you can get enough sunlight it might help preserve battery but don't think you can really rely on it. I only have it 'cos it was the only way to get the sapphire glass.

These only work on handheld devices, not watches. But yes, they're not cheap!

I'm in almost full agreement with this being a great approach... except for "clipped on the shoulder strap"

I bought talkytoaster maps for my Fenix 6 but have not felt the need with my Fenix 7x, there are contours now and shading.

Regarding OS maps, if you have them on a PC you can select Basemap as a layer, which seems to show all the open-source tracks and trails, at least in the natiomal parks. Easy to create a course as a GPX and transfer it to the Garmin. Very easy to do this for the Joss Naylor challenge route, only the ascent of Bowfell having to be fudged by hand. If you do a course the watch vibrates if you stray from the line by a few metres.

Battery life on the 7x is plenty for all day on max GPS, not necessarily the case on the Fenix 6. My old 920xt made it from Snowdon to Foel Fras and died when I pressed the stop button! It still recorded correctly, all 16 hours, but it was supposed to do 20..

DC Rainmaker made a graph which shows how much slower the battery drains with solar in this review (link below) in the section about "How solar works". It looks like the watch lost roughly 6% less battery than a non-solar watch over about a three hour hike in the sunshine (from the graph) "pretty cool" he says!

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/08/garmin-fenix6-pro-solar-series-review.h...

If you've got a Garmin handheld GPS (I've got 66i) the IMG file is drag and drop onto the watch, you can also get them from auction sites

https://imgur.com/a/gkWgLgC

I was hoping there would be a noticeable difference with the solar, but from my usage it doesn't seem to make a significant difference unless you are in full sun for a long time, in general use in the south of England I don't see much charge on the graph. 

I don't know how he's doing it anyway... the clip that comes with the 66i is unusable.  Once you get it on, it's nearly impossible to get the damn thing off.  Secure perhaps, but super annoying to use in reality.

Perhaps its me doing it wrong? ha... 
Or perhaps my use of the word clip has caused the issue?
Apologies..

I have loops on all my rucsacs shoulder straps.. Lowe Alpine, Osprey... On the Montane there are gear loops. 

Garmin small carabiner into loop.. done.. can be clipped/unclipped even with mitts. 

I will say that I have learned the hard way NOT to have it outside/exposed on there in freezing blizzards. Snow/ice freezes to the front around the buttons.. causing buttons to be unusable. Have to be defrosted in a jacket to use again!!!

Also, the lanyard is around chest strap.. so.. if whilst unclipping the crab I drop it... It's not going to hit the deck. Also another tweak through learning experience!!
System works for me, but may not be to everyone's liking.

Thanks everyone. After long deliberation I plumped for the fused carbon MARQ 2: Commander Edition. 
 

https://www.garmin.com/en-GB/p/815582/pn/010-02722-01

For me, the clincher was that it claims to be a watch for the modern tool…

I’d disagree that Garmin topo maps and talkytoaster maps are “pretty much the same these days”. TT have a far more detailed digital terrain model than Garmin, so if you’re plotting routes or recording tracks with the Garmin map data, the ascent and descent will be significantly underestimated. 

I've been hearing a lot recently that there's been some development in low light solar panels where the efficiency has tripled. Think of your low light calculator solar panels but three times better. They now believe they have the tech to make tv remotes, keyboards and computer mice all battery-less and wireless.

If true, it may be applicable to watches and we may finally get a solar watch that makes a meaningful difference to battery life. The benefit being you wouldn't need to be in full sun so it would charge more of the time by solar.

I don't know who's opinion I'm supporting here, but this is what the standard mapping looks like on my 6X. I think it's near the saddle next to Snowdon. Blurry because my phone struggled to focus.

If you have TT of the same area, would be interesting to post.

Elevation recording is done using the altimeter (air pressure) or the GNSS if the former look weird. The mapping plays no role in data recording. As for the DEM, they use the same data, just TalkToaster is a high resolution than Garmin (10 m vs 20 m) - this won't give you massive differences. I'd argue that Basecamp, or whatever the modern Garmin software is, is actually terrible for route planning anyway - much better to use OSMaps or something (I use FatMap, bundled with Strava, has all the OS data) to make a gpx file you can import to the Garmin ecosystem. 

The main reason I haven't upgraded to Talkytoaster Maps is I don't know what impact it has on battery life.

Garmin put a lot of effort into refining their products and I bet they put a lot of effort into optimising their maps to be power efficient.

Talkytoaster are unlikely to have done this.

Elliot above is complaining how his battery doesn't last on big routes, but he's using Talkytoaster maps so it could easily be his doing.

It's just a theory.

Interesting idea I wonder if anyone has ever checked. Taking this to it's furthest conclusion I wonder if there is an option to turn off the "map" all together and just follow the GPX line on a blank space, I'm sure that's how my old Garmin 735XT worked and I can think of lots of examples of times you would rather prioritise battery life, whilst having "a line to follow" on the watch, over having lower battery life but having detailed contour lines, dry stone walls, stiles, pylons, forests, streams, etc., etc., etc. on your wrist!

unfortunately this is not consistent with my experience using Epix gen 2 default Garmin maps - recorded runs were absurdly wrong in their elevation data when using the default mapping, so too was the route planning; yet, once using TT maps the results were close to what one would expect  

I use Talkytoaster in basecamp and tend to plan routes on there but also usually looking at OS alongside (using Mapyx Quo). What I've found is that there are pros and cons to each. Because the TT map is based partly on open source mapping, I find it can be more useful for showing where there's actually a path on the ground as opposed to the right of way (where applicable). I've been caught out by this (and I would never simply assume a line on the TT map means there's something on the ground). But IME paths that are on TT correspond to a path on the ground most of the time. But OS seems much better for things like checking access land and rights of way. And also the TT map on basecamp is very hard to read at certain scales as it does really weird things with the names of settlements.

It seems easy to me to get a route from basecamp into garmin as you can easily export a route as a gpx and then just bring it into Garmin.

I've just done a comparison for Fairfield. With both maps, what's shown (e.g., labels, paths) does very much depend on the zoom level so this might not be an entirely fair comparison. The Garmin map is better than I thought it would be tbf. When I first got a garmin watch with maps on I went for a run near Shap and, at that time, I only had the garmin map. It was utterly useless. So, I also suspect that it depends where you are. I mentioned upthread that when I compare for the hill and woodland behind my house the garmin shows virtually nothing useful (in stark contrast to the TT map). But for Fairfield, they look more similar.

I think if TT were very expensive it would be more debatable but it is such good value that it seems a no brainer to me.

Garmin forums suggest that you can turn off all maps and just follow a breadcrumb trail but I've never tried it. My battery would run out before the garmin's did.

There is a setting for using the DEM for elevation I think, but it's buried somewhere. At least for the Fenix this is an option. I'd suggest that's turned on. 

IMO there is very little extra information on the TT map, but a lot of extra visual clutter than doesn't really help. For a small screen that's the last thing I (personally) want!

garmin released topo maps to the fenix/epix a few months ago so possibly you have updated the the now better version with shading, contours etc?

Yes, they are the latest maps as this watch is quite new. And they do seem a bit better. I still think it differs a lot between locations though. I think in the end much of it is preferences too.

I use one on the GPS Training website which is OS maps:
https://gpstraining.co.uk/pages/ordnance-survey-route-planner
Another one I use is Walk Lakes which has the same user format as the above one, but uses a different mapping system:
https://www.walklakes.co.uk/maps2/

In reality I just bought this. Price seemed pretty damn good, relatively speaking…

https://www.hsamuel.co.uk/garmin-epix-gen-2-black-silicone-strap-smartwatch...

😂 Good one!

I followed that link through and was like wow this person is absolutely minted they "plumped" for a £3k watch.

I need to recalibrate my sarcasm detector clearly!

A lot of people get a posh divers watch, so they can buy into that rugged lifestyle image. But chances are they wouldn't dare to get it wet in the bath, let alone tell the time at 200m depth.

Garmin might be onto something with that Commander watch. Its got a parachute jump master app and a ballistics calculator. You can buy into the lifestyle that you're an international assassin, spec ops operator or someone who takes Counterstrike and paintball way too seriously.

Based on my experiences with Garmin support, I’d be very annoyed as an international assassin trying to perform a ballistics calculation being told after a week of emailing back-and-forth to try doing a factory reset again.

Nice - good price. If you're quick, for £150 more, you can have the titanium version from John Lewis.

WRT the Marq you linked earlier - looks awesome, but I really struggled to see what it extra it really had over the Epix/Tactix/Fenix (apart from screen) to justify the price tag!

'Outdoors GPS' app on your smartphone is my recommendation. £19/pa for the entire UK OS mapping 1:25000. Just the best nav tool around as far as I'm concerned. Garmin watches are great, but I wouldn't bother with an all singing all dancing one. Forerunner 245 is mine, it gives you all your stats and route retrospectively.

I actually bought both. One for every day and the dear one for attending ambassador’s receptions etc. 

In reply to BAZ_86:

Clearly a spambot, don't click its links. Will hopefully be removed soon by the powers that be, but it is the weekend.

Ignoring the fact that it's not very practical to use an OS map on a screen smaller than a purple cam (or possibly any other map as well), you definitely can use OS maps on a Garmin watch. For this example, I only exported North Wales and not the whole UK, as it takes a bit of time, but any other area can be done as well. A map for Snowdonia only takes about 350 megabytes. I also tested OS maps briefly in London as well, and everything seems to work just fine. Email me for the file if interested.

Possibly this needs to be moved to a separate thread, I'm not sure.