UKC

My 7 year old Polartec Neoshell jacket failed yesterday so I'm in the market for a new "heavyweight" waterproof jacket. Grateful for any recommendations. 3 layer, taped or welded seams. I've avoided goretex in the past, my impression being it was not very breathable and overpriced. On the other hand the hydrostatic head is higher than any other material as far as I can tell (28,000mm vs ~20,000mm for others). My current jacket is 12,000mm which I don't think is enough.

Seems like anything above 80D thickness is overkill for mountaineering?

I'm also Paramo curious but a bit put off by the weight.

What brand was the Neoshell? After much hype when it was new it does seem that no one is using Neoshell anymore. Jöttnar started using only Neoshell for shells and dropped it a few years ago using a new waterproof membrane that they have branded with one name although I wonder if the material manufacturer sells it to other brands under other names. I can't remember what it's called but I've been really impressed with it using a jacket and shell troos for the last - gosh! - 6 winters. https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/clothing/waterproofs/jottnar_odin_shell+van... Expensive though, but most things are it always feels. If budget is a major consideration whatever top of the range shell jacket in Decathlon's Simond range will probably be best value for money. 

Mine was a Westcomb Apoc jacket. 

Thanks, I'll check out Jottnar ones. Yeah everything's got so expensive.

I have been hugely impressed by my Patagonia Triolet. It just works. Bell and whistle free. 

eVent is actually a slightly more waterproof material than Goretex but also performs better in terms of breathability as well so it might be worthwhile you looking for jackets utilising that. 🤙

I found it close to useless and went straight back to goretex.

My experience of eVent echoed yours. I had an eVent Crux Smock that I absolutely loved in every way, fit, movement, burliness, kept wind at bay, hood. Perfect. 

Except, it had the waterproof properties of moss. 

There are very few brands making eVent jackets currently it seems. I looked it up https://www.eventfabrics.com/brands/ no mainstream UK brands there and no North American or European brands I know of. I see Fjern is using it which is interesting - maybe you can get bargains on Sport Pursuit? 

I have a light weight/Alpine Rab jacket, which has eVent as the main fabric. I have found it alright in rain, but not had it in any really consistent rain. My main complaint is that it doesn't hack much in the way of abrasion, and this has led to some annoying holes in certain areas at the front of the jacket.

I thought eVent had moved away from selling it as a branded fabric, to selling it for use as manufacturers' 'own brand' waterproof. But that was a while ago, so I'm not sure what its status is these days.

Hey.  For me the Mountain Equipment Tupilak is the best hardshell jacket on the market just now and I've tried most things beyond the ridiculously expensive in the last few years either through purchasing myself or being issued them for work.

Paramo - works okay for walking but its heavy and isnt ideal for winter climbing

Event - I bought a Fjern jacket this year (its actually Sportpursuits own brand).  The fabric is okay but doesnt feel like it will last as long as 80D Goretex pro (it was a lot cheaper though!)

Its worth noting that Gore tex as we know it is about to change.  the coating used is not environmentally okay so will be switched out.  the confusing thing is the name of the particular type of goretex wont change (ie Pro will still be Pro).  

Thanks, that's a strong recommendation. I've noticed ME is generally pretty well regarded on UKC.

Yes, I didn't bring up PFAS but this is a factor for me. I had hoped my current jacket would see me through to the new PFAS-free era but apparently not. Do you know when ME might be switching over?

eVent has a waterproof lifespan of about 3 months when in use, I'd actively avoid it.

You referring to the ePE stuff? If so it's already out in at least Patagonia. 

It appears a recommendation of eVent isnt a good one 🤦‍♂️😆

To be fair, I was only reporting back on the technical specs, having never used it myself.  I always wear goretex but make sure the jacket has put zips to aid the inevitable breathability issue.

My partner and I have both had good experience with Fjern products on SportPursuit but after the comments about events waterproof abilities I’m not sure it’d be worth taking a chance on it.

Waterproof jackets is the main area where I find I cheap out on. 

For me Gortex is too expensive, unreliable and it doesn't breath when it's raining. It needs the moisture ratio inside to be higher than outside to work. So what's the point?

I find a cheap, plasticky non breathable jacket with pit vents works fine for me.

It does mean when it's not raining, I need to take it off pretty quick. But Gotex isn't so breathable that you don't sweat it it anyway.

Joining in the chorus: I had Event and Neoshell jackets, both of which completely ceased to be waterproof after a couple of years and couldn't be revived by any amount of washing and re-DWRing.

After that I went back to goretex, my latest heavyweight acquisition being an ME Lhotse that I picked up half price in a sale. Frankly though for the amount of use I get out of it I wouldn't have even contemplated buying an ultra expensive top end jacket like that at full price. 

Bargain hunting is time consuming though. Not sure what I'd suggest if you need something right now. 

Paramo fan here!

I've got three now and I don't think that I'll ever go back to Goretex or eVent jackets.

I climb regularly in my smock and my windproof rolls up nicely in to a stuff bag to clip to my harness.

My Alta jacket is probably too warm for UK conditions!

The downside is the price but I think that's now true of any performance outdoor clothing.

The best advice that I was ever given was to "wash often"!

I confess that I'm also surprised by the anti-eVent sentiment; I've an old RAB eVent jacket and I've always found it to perform as well as any waterproof outer (with the exception of Paramo).

I bought an eVent jacket last year for a trip to Scotland - Fjern Orkan from Sport Pursuit. We had lots of rain, it leaked like a sieve. Not helped by the DWR wetting through in about an hour.

I sent it back for a refund. Shame, as in every other way it was great - good fit on me and the features I wanted. Hood was a bit big - most people won't need to get it over a helmet.

Conversely, my ancient ME GoreTex jacket kept me mostly dry in an absolute monsoon last week - leaked in the zip and back of one shoulder, I think.

I bought a Montane gravity 2 years ago. I recommend it not because its good (it's ok) but that in 3 separate weeks in the Scottish Highlands I've not had a single day of rain to test it out. Therefore it must be magic.

It's good stuff, but I had a session earlier this year (after the Orkan fiasco) trying on several ME jackets and the current fit of them is terrible. On me, at least.

If you want a traditional waterproof jacket for out on the hills in hideous weather then Cornice. Totally old fashioned, things like durable fabric, storm flap, chunky zip, can zip in (optional extra) fleece jacket to act as a liner. Long enough that rain water runs off it to top of trousers not acting as a groin-wash like most recent jackets.

There is even a Cornice Long, which is even longer which means you can get it perhaps half way down your thigh (depends on your body length)

Shop about you might get one for £150 to £170 or so

https://www.berghaus.com/men-s-cornice-interactive-jacket-black/13139853.ht...

Another vote for the Triolet. I've used it for mountain walking, scrambling, and skiing, and it has performed admirably, including in some pretty nasty weather.

Don't let that stop you from giving it a ringing endorsement 😂

I used an eVent jacket from time to time for years with no problem until one day water seemed to suddenly come through the neck. Unpleasant and weirdly abrupt. But after a wash following instructions it seemed to be ok again. My sons have sort of nicked it since, particularly since they've been off to uni. So I think it's currently in Manchester where it has been known to rain. I'll ask child 2 if it still seems to be keeping water out!

My partner is having good luck with her Keela Pinnacle jacket and I'll consider Keela for my next hardshell.  Best bit is their top of the range Keela Munro jacket has a RRP of £215 :-o 

Might not help you that much, but there are like two styles of WPB jackets, with a third hybrid style in‑between. But all basically require enough humidity or temperature gradient between the inside and the outside, given how thermodynamics work.

1. Porous hydrophobic membrane like GTX or E‑vent. Works by being hydrophobic by the nature of the membrane, so the water droplets don't come through. Needs frequent washings, as the salts and grimes might compromise the hydrophobicity and let it leak (E‑vent and GTX, but more of an E‑vent issue, historically)

2. Hybrid hydrophobic and hydrophilic membranes like more modern versions of GTX, where the hydrophobic parts are protected by a solid polyurethane membrane that eats up the grime. Most versions of GTX nowadays, except a few.

3. Solid hydrophilic membranes that use capillary action instead of diffusion to transfer moisture out of the jacket, while keeping the inner side dry. Mostly PU membranes, many trade names.

4. Nano‑spun hydrophobic membranes using other chemicals instead of ePTFE, which work like the #1 but don't contain much or any fluorine compounds that can be so harmful in their manufacture. Gore's new ePE one and many others now

5. The DWR on the outer still matters, as any jacket that totally wets through its outer fibre layer doesn't breathe at all, no matter how high the membrane numbers are. DWR is getting a bit worse, because of the environmental concerns with per-fluorocarbons. The thing is, you need to wash and reapply DWR more frequently now. But it's still worth it, since the old PFC DWRs were pretty much totally deadly to the the world's environment.

6. It gets even more complicated, since new membrane types got available. You can now have polyurethane or ePE hydrophobic membranes which work like the old GTX ePTFE. Without the PFCs. ePE is what GTX is heavily leaning for. Others are going nano‑spun polyurethanes and similar. The thing is, ePTFE (the fluorocarbons) have been found really harmful for the environment, so there is a lot of research going on what the best replacement might be (sadly, ePTFE just worked, even if it was really that bad).

7. We are in the middle of an upheaval, and the data is pretty scarce yet. I'd suggest getting the cheapest one that suits you (which might be the already proven, if not perfect PUR solid membrane), as things might change.

8. The change was actually quite needed, as PTFE (fluorine chemistry) was (and will still be, for decades to come) indeed extremely harmful, so anything but ePTFE is better.

I have an Arcteryx Alpha FL hardshell, picked up in a sale about 8 years ago now. It’s still going very strong, hasn’t leaked even slightly despite me never washing it (or maybe once?), is pretty breathable while active (for a hardshell), packs up v small and could even go on a harness if you’re brave, great cut for climbing/mountaineering/skiing, great hood for with and without a helmet, seems robust (only a couple of self-inflicted nicks from ice tools). Only downside is lack of pockets (but I’ve got used to putting things in different pockets!) and could be a little longer for my taste.

It also actually looks good both on the mountain and in the city too… which may or may not be a consideration.

If mine broke I’d consider getting another, but maybe a bigger size (it’s slightly short in the body and I’m now bigger) and a model with more pockets. But I’d also look at Simond’s top waterproof. Not how it compares but loads cheaper and their kit is generally good.

Im sure any goretex pro jacket with a climbing fit would be similar, of course.

For comparison I had a Mountain Hardwear own brand Event jacket - for some reason it has never felt quite as protective from biting winds - like somehow a bit of a draught in winter or when skiing? It definitely felt less reassuring.

Hope this helps

And yes , it breathes, even when its raining. If you go running it won't keep up, but it does a lot of things well.

A couple of people recommended the Patagonia Triolet Jacket. Reduced here. https://www.sportsshoes.com/product/pat758/patagonia-triolet-jacket

Different sizes in various colours at £273 PFC free Goretex

Not used one myself but seem to get a good review.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/clothing/waterproofs/patagonia_triolet_jack...

Could be worth exploring.

Ages ago I bought a Rab Neoshell jacket. Quite breathable for a hardshell. Definitely not as good a waterproof even when new. Think I read that Neoshell loses a lot of its efficiency over time. Definitely does!

The weight of paramo is significant but they are warm as well as far more breathable than goretex. I found mine ideal for winter climbing in Scotland.

They also last well. 

Mountain Equipment Lhotse Goretex Pro in small or medium for £300

https://www.braemarmountainsports.com/clothing-accessories/jackets-gilets/m...

Let us know how you get on. I need a new jacket for 2025.

I think the warmth is the main downside of Paramo. It's much more useful to have a shell you can put on top of warm layers when needed, and not have the warmth when you don't need it. E.g. A wet summer walk.

I agree they're not much use as a just in case shell! 

You might or might not be aware of this, but if it hasn't been washed more than once during its lifetime, I would recommend not washing it. Old GTX jackets that haven't been properly maintained tend to delaminate once they get put through a cycle. 

On topic: For heavy and prolonged rain in cold conditions I went back to GTX Pro coming from a spun hydrophilic polyester membrane. While being supremely comfortable and going off of the numbers superior material, polyester just wets out too fast given the PFC-free coating on them nowadays - and it takes longer to dry when soaked. 

Paramo is great for winter climbing if it's cold and snowy. If you're going to be walking in in the rain they absorb a lot of water then it gets pushed through to your layers underneath if you lean against anything.

I really like paramo when it is cooler / in the winter. I have a gortex for when it is warmer.

Some people don't get on with paramo but they do a return scheme I think. It isn't so good for very low energy activities in the wet (when I'm at Gaping Gill doing whistle shifts at the bottom I wear Hardshell, if I'm going for a long winter day in Scotland, Paramo top and bottom, The Fellsman Gortex, the Alps in summer Goretex, most days in the cooler months in the Dales). It breathes well, is robust (damage tolerant and repairable) and comfortable to wear throughout the day. It wirks really well for winter mountaineering. Think of paramo more like soft shell.

, most days in the cooler months in the Dales).

That was meant to be:

, Paramo most days.....

I have to confess if it really is going to tip with rain, I'm most likely to just stay indoors. However I know that the big brands look better (sometimes), but given the eye watering costs. What's wrong with Mountain Warehouse? On sale at £80.00, I could get a new layer every other year and still be ahead. 

Putting performance, or lack of, to one side, that seems a remarkably wasteful approach. My last gore-tex lasted 7 years and has been relegated to commuting duties, replacing a much older jacket. It wasn't in tip top condition when retired but had been looked after and probably performing as well as an £80 Mountain Warehouse jacket.

There is a line where cheap really does just fall apart. I've had several MW jackets where the zip disintegrated on both within the first week, which was a shame as the jacket was great and I still wear it 10 years later even with the dodgy zip. I wouldn't buy MW for anything mission critical. Saying that I also wouldn't buy any of the major brands as the pricing seems to be aimed at central London financial types (£500 for a ME Lhotse, £800 for an Alpha SV???) - Simond and Fjern are keeping things in the real world. 

Although it's interesting to think how they do that. 

And what are your thoughts on that?

I know nothing about Fjern beyond they are owned by Sportpursuits which makes me wonder about the ethics of SP selling Fjern things "heavily discounted" when no one seems to sell them at full price in the first place. 

Simond/Decathlon have extensive environmental and labour welfare documentation on their website - I'm not suggesting they use sweatshops. So I guess it's using "no brand" fabrics, large products runs, super efficient factories and happily aping the designs of other more expensive brands that helps them sell a jacket for 125 quid rather than 500?

A Fjern Event Jacket is £350 RRP on their website, a Patagonia Triolet is £390 and Mountain Equipment Manaslu (Gore-tex ePE) is £300.

Fjern are hardly a bargain outlier, especially using Event which is comparably cheap.

Sounds very like my thoughts, then...

The Fjern website is basically a front that sells the products at "full" price so that Sports pursuit can off the huge "discounts". They operate with a similar model to Sports direct and the discounted price is basically the actual normal price. 

I genuinely have no idea. Fjern belay jackets are better than all the big brands at a 5th of the price. Presumably bigger brands have more buying power dealing with larger quantities with bigger sales numbers so logically they should be cheaper, unless Fjern are selling them at a loss then it goes to show how much the big guys price their products to support expansive marketing and branding. 

As I understand it, they were an independent company to start with - Sport Pursuits subsequently bought them when they got into financial difficulties.

Me too.  It does what it’s meant to do.

Anyone recommend Alpkit waterproofs? I was hoping to see a ringing endorsement for them on here as I have been eyeing up their waterproof trousers recently!

I had one (Balance) which leaked from the word go. I returned it and I was willing to try a replacement but they lost my return and then it was out of stock so I got a refund. I also have a pair of their lightweight waterproof trousers which are best treated as shower proof. So on the whole, not too impressed.

Thirded (or forthed - I've lost track). Mine's a year old, and so far the only quibble is about the sizing.

I've heard good things about their belay jackets but also that they are a lot heavier and bulkier than some of the alternatives. Is that true in your experience?

The Fjern Husly is about 100grams or 10% heavier than the mountain equipment Citadel.  
 

The Husly can cost under £70 the Citadel £375.  That £300 could easily save the 100grams !  
 

If I was offered both, obviously I would choose the Citadel!  But it was out my budget.  
 

I have never seen a Fjern product reviewed in the outdoor media, possibly due to the advertising or lack of it.  

For winter I don't think anything comes close to Paramo. However I run too hot to even consider it outside of the grottiest conditions, yes its heavy but being warm and so comfortable I find in foul weather I can wear it all day and need very little extra insulation which compensates for the weight.

I have bought a new Mountain Equipment jacket in the last 6 months, as my original ME winter jacket had various bits of damage which was not allowing the jacket to be usable, and ME recommended a 3rd party to mend it. Since then the hood wrap device has broken away, and other areas are coming adrift. Yet I cannot complain. I probably have used that jacket for winter mountaineering and ice-climbing for 20-25 years.

The new jacket is the one almost on a par with the guide jacket and has a few advantages over the latter for me, but costs pretty much the same. I could only get it from ME direct, having tried in various Cotswold stores both north and south, and Tiso's and other smaller shops in Scotland and the Lake District. If this one lasts as long as the last one, it will have a very low cost per use, and also be better for the environment. So paying more than £500 is not as crazy as it seems to me.

Don't you explain why many things come close or even surpass it in your second sentence?!

I did say for Winter maybe I should have said for ‘proper’ Winter. Outside of which I just use any old lightish jacket.

The Husly is a big heavyweight for sure, but feels really premium and well built. Like, shockingly well built and featured for the price. It's not really a UK jacket unless you were bouldering in winter or something, but for arctic expeditions or ice belays etc it would be the dream. 

Does the hood go easily over a helmet and shell hood and zip up over your face? I don't want many features on a belay jacket but that is fundamental! I've been wanging on about this for 16 years at least. 😆https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/clothing/down_insulation/belay_jackets-1375 

https://images4.sportpursuit.info/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/800x8...

It doesnt go full Kenny from South Park, but it's a high chin. Not those annoying popper things. Helmet should be no problem, it's a pretty roomy hood

contoverial but the re release of the mera peak or trango. or consider a cornice. all berghaus 

I picked up a Helly Hansen Odin jacket a few years ago in a sale in Scotland and it's been brilliant. Have just given it a re-proof with Nikwax and seems to be like new. Was in a very heavy downpour a couple of days ago and it kept me dry and comfortable. They seem to use their own 'hellytech' fabric, not sure what goes into that.

Probably best bet is to get a really good soft shell jacket from mountain equipment, then a lightweight hardshell that you can put on in the rain. Montane make a bunch of lightweight stuff which is great. I do this for winter mountaineering with a pair of Simond mountaineering trousers (highly recommend) and a mammut eiger speed pant. and it works better than gore-tex for most days. Full hardshell is only necessary for pretty stormy days.