UKC

I turned 50 this summer just gone and treated myself to a, nominally, "once in a lifetime" type adventure - a week mountaineering course in Chamonix, theoretically culminating in a Matterhorn ascent; actually ending up doing Dent Du Geant, as the 'horn was still under too much snow for a realistic attempt. (Also did routes on l'Index, Cosmiques, Entreves)

I leant loads, had largely a great time, but equally some absolutely bonkers WTF moments.

One of the things I leant was that I loved moving high up on (semi) technical rock, in *that* light and with *those* views. Want/need/must do more of it. (wandering about on the Vallee Blanche was cool, but not the proper buzz that I got from the actual climbing)

So I'm thinking about 'summer 25, and how to get what I want in a cost effective way. The week course in Chamonix cost well in excess of £3k, not including travel and gear purchases by the time I'd covered food, lift passes etc. I can't justify that for a "run of the mill" holiday. 

I'm (currently) not overly fussed by climbing any specific peak. The challenge of the movement; learning stuff; location/views is what drives me. 

I also crave the "solitude of the mountains". Queuing to get onto the rock, then scrabbling around like its rush hour on the tube is not the experience I'm after, and largely what Cham seemed to offer up.

Both the above suggest heading away from Chamonix - but to where...?

I'm well aware I don't know near enough to head out solo, therefore a guide is an absolute necessity. Last summer, we were mostly 1:2 guided - but the luck of the draw put me with another guest who had zero climbing experience what so ever and was out of his depth in no short order - absolutely sound guy, and I enjoyed his company off the rock, but he definitely slowed us down until we moved to 1:1. (Very aware there was a 50% chance of me being the numpty, but I'd put a lot of effort in beforehand to make sure I wasn't a complete idiot!). I'd also much prefer a native english speaker guide. 5 or 6 days of 1:1 private guiding already blows the budget before considering anything else...! There's also the small matter of how to hook up with a guide privately if I go that route (I had some contact though this forum with Tom Ripley; a friend used a chap called Ross Hewitt for a couple of days - but I've no idea if I make a sensible match with either of them.)

Food and accomodation are places to save cash, but I've never been a fan of camping for more than the odd night, especially if its variable weather and most of my kit is lightweight single-night bikepacking type stuff; the missus also wouldn't buy into it. (the accomodation in the summer came as part of the course). Likewise - in theory we could self cater; practically after a big day out, summoning the wherewithal to do a supermarket run and cook, compared to gorging on melted cheese/cured pig at any one of many local hostelries will prove a challenge when actually faced with the reality! 

Certainly based on the summer gone, what I "want" and what I can "afford" are different things - so what I want to figure out is the tips/tricks/hacks to cut the corners on the non-essentials but get the headline items right. 

Ideally I'd fold it in with a week's biking elsewhere in the Alps, so travel amortized into that. If I could get a week of Alpinism for £2k all in, that I could afford/justify. More than that gets problematic.

Advice greatfully received!

Thanks,

BL

(a quick note about me. Pretty fit; good mountain biker/all round cyclist; climb indoors a bit; have an industrial access background; decent head for heights; lifelong outdoors lover - walk when I can't ride!)

Alpine Club Saas Aspirants meet?

Obviously there are courses based in Switzerland at a 1:2 ratio for the kind of things you might enjoy, but these are more expensive than Chamonix because a) Switzerland is more expensive and b) non-local Guides will need to be accommodated when in the valley (not the case in Chamonix, assuming they live there).

This is UKC so a lot of people will recommend the Ecrins!

Excellent questions!

I haven't been to the Alps since 2010 for various reasons, one being cost. It's not cheap, even for those of us who are very experienced.

With climbing & mountaineering (& with many things with life in general) there is a very clear trade between time & money.

Climbing with a Guide is massively time efficient but very expensive. Gradually learning the skills climbing with other mountaineers of similar abilities, whether through a traditional mountaineering club or otherwise is a vastly slower process although highly rewarding.

So you basically have two options:

1) Decide that you are going to stick with hiring a Guide, perhaps ever few years.

That means you ideally want to find a British Mountain Guide who you get along with and you can build a longer term relationship with. Many of them who I know, will be only too happy to visit amazing parts of the Alps away from Chamonix that are both quieter and slightly cheaper. It may be possible that once you have climbed with them, they may have other clients with similar aspirations and can offer future opportunities that are as cost efficient as possible.

Many British Mountain Guides will spend time in the UK, especially in Scotland during the Winter so it may be possible to get out with one of them for a day or two before committing to a more expensive trip back to the Alps with them.

The other thing is that most of the Guides all know each other and if they think that one of their friends or colleagues might be a better fit with you and your objectives or planned location, they are likely to make that recommendation rather than accept work that isn't an ideal fit on either side.

Most Guides prefer clients like you who want to enjoy spending time in the mountains rather than individuals who are obsessed with climbing a particular summit. So if you have some vague outline dates for 2025 or 2026, the best thing is to speak to a couple of Guides and see what they suggest.

2) The second option is to commit to gradually learning the skills and gaining enough experience to be more independent in the higher mountains.

That may involve hiring a guide for a couple of days on your next trip to teach/improve skills or guide you on a higher peak but additionally you would need to commit to getting out on some easier objectives before and/or afterwards.

It may also involve the rather cheaper option of going mountaineering in Scotland (late season, March/April is best) so that you get more time & experience spent using crampons. 

With this sort approach hardest part is finding some like minded people. A good starting point is finding out if there are any friends of friends who are keen mountaineers.

Even if you do plan on hiring a Guide again, that sort of networking and making contacts is probably not a bad option. Most mountaineers I know like nothing better than chatting to others about mountaineering!

Anyway, hope that makes some sense.

Guides are expensive, but you will, or should learn safely. When I started in the Alps in the 1970,s in the main only rich adventure tourists hired a guide as none of us had the money or desire to be shown how to climb, being fiercely independent. I would recommend joining a club and trying to pair with someone with greater experience. It worked really well for me and it led to a long rewarding climbing career. It’s also worth noting that almost exclusively Britains finest mountaineers didn’t start their climbing careers with a guide, though quite a few later became guides. So good luck whichever you choose and I wish I was starting out again!

If you want native Brits look at this lot, 

https://www.alpine-guides.com/climb/about-alpine-guides/

Either different levels of course, or something more bespoke. I've never hired them, but I have climbed with several of them, chilled, client focused and obviously very competent. 

I was in a similar position at about 50yrs. I had lots of general mountaineering/ scrambling experience, mostly Scotland and N Wales. Like you, a taster sort of course led me to want more alpine stuff! I started indoor  climbing which for me certainly helped with general climbing movement when going outside on alpine ridges etc. But I also did a couple of teaching week courses which really gave me far more confidence on glaciers etc. I used ISM , based in Leysin, an English based Alpine school with a long pedigree. Check out their summer Classic  Alpinism level 2 training course. It is around £2k for the week, so at the top end of what you are looking for. But I think you might be suited and gain a huge amount particularly on glacier safety. I also joined a club, but it helped that I had the knowledge from the courses, not rely on trying to pick it up from other club members. So was able to get out with others to build on the experiences, not just rely on others. Good luck. At 75 I have now had some wonderful Alpine experiences with friends. But it was getting over those initial hurdles , particularly glacier work, that was the key. 

As others have said, consider joining a club or two and finding like minded people to climb with. Where are you based? Someone on here may be able to recommend a club in your area.

A lot of good points by Mark S. I know a few British guides in Chamomix & Mark is right that they talk to each other, & don't just help each re suitability, but also availability. Happy to share some names contact details privately.

They're pretty much all grounded on UK & Scottish winter climbing so there's also a common 'mountain' language. They will happily taylor the activity / time to suit whilst  knowing where to go that's  away from the maddening crowds & according to conditions. 

The AC trip is also a worthy option & I think Austrian Alpine Club (UK branch) might also run these.

If you decide to go down the guides route , book them up early !

Anywhere!! Chamomix is bit rubbish really in many respects. Italy is cheaper, wilder and quieter. The Italian Aosta valley has a lifetime of alpine  climbing some quite popular some almost forgotten .If you really want solitude try Piedemont on the French Italian border. Switzerland is expensive and ....Swiss... but is unbeatable for proper pointy mountains 

Have you looked at the Slovakian Tatras. The ranges there are very quiet, especially on the Gerlack which although might be only around 3k high, packs a punch when you look at the routes up it. We did an 8 pitch mixed route last year and saw nobody up there. Guides are plentiful but we didn't bother. Amazing scenery, wild and has wildlife. Very cheap.

If you do not want to camp but keep costs lower then you are looking at an apartment.   The alps stretch a long way and further south and or east and you’ll find some cheaper options. For instance even just 100 miles south of Chamonix you’ll find apartments available next summer for between £700 to £1000 for two weeks.

Another hint, is to look at areas of the alps that don’t have an abundance of 4,000m peaks. In my experience these are often overlooked, but offer a quieter time, and still offer stunning high alpine outings.

Why don‘t you concentrate your efforts on finding a partner who‘s similarly experienced and enthusiastic? My first two Alpine trips were with a supposedly experienced partner, but he was slow and I just didn‘t feel safe, even though we were doing easier routes up to just under 4000m. I then went on a course in Austria which sounds similar to yours, and it gave me all I needed to feel safe and independent on moderate tours in the Alps. I then spent a winter reading everything I could find on all aspects of Alpine mountaineering, looked around and found a good partner, and never looked back. 
 

I‘d suggest that you already have an adequate foundation through your course and previous experience, and that you‘ll save tons of money, learn quicker and experience a much greater sense of satisfaction if you go independent with a suitable partner. You don‘t have to head for the honeypots or the widely recommended areas; half the fun is poring over guidebooks and maps while  planning the trip, and the Alps are huge!

If you can't work anything out in The Alps or make it financially viable go to the Pyrenees and solo some 3000ers. Bit of a wild card I know but it's what I like doing.

E

There are a few British Guides lurking on UKC...

It's disappointing that you were paired up with a guy with zero experience, especially if you were aiming for the Matterhorn! Any decent guiding company should be able to do better than that. 

Switzerland isn't that expensive compared to Chamonix. Italy is much cheaper of course. 

2k budget is tight for a 1:2 all inclusive guided week. Check carefully what's included in the package!

If you can find someone to climb with and book as a pair you can get decent discounts. 

Thanks all.

Some food for thought there, certainly.

Joining a local club is definitely possible (I'm in Sheffield), although given the choice I'm kind of not a very clubby type person.

In terms of self-guiding, I'd really be looking to work with someone a good load more experienced than me. I'd say I'm a (vaguley) competent second, but I simply don't have the snow/mountain technical mileage to feel I would be making good decisions with someone else at a similar level.

Hooking up with a guide, who I can then share with another of his solo punters would be a good call, but it feels like a lot of balls to get lined up to work - especially if I'm doing it as part of a longer trip.

Accom wise - we were in an apartment this time round, supplied as part of the package, so thats familiar territory.

Aosta/Italy sounds good. Better coffee too!

The other thing I need to consider is what my other half wants to get up to - she did a more "walky" type course while I was climbing, Some bits she absolutely loved, but other bits she had a complete nightmare on. I'd be "reasonably" happy to take her out on some simpler stuff that pushes my leadership abilities a bit, but I think she'd have very strong reservations about that, just because I'm suggesting it... We enjoy similar things but at radically different levels.

Part of this process is refining the needs -v- the wants and cost/benefit. I'm far from on the breadline, but there's a definite element of "if I afford this, then I can't afford that" and what compromises I'm prepared to make across the rest of my life. (One winner here is that I already have most of the kit, so there's less pre-trip expenditure this time round)

Something else to consider is not going alpine but heading to the Dolomites. The only glacier is on the Marmolada.  Plenty of spectacular climbing to go at. Great walking (and cycling). Plus Via Ferrata for getting that climbing up high feeling without actually climbing. The Via Ferrata are free to go on and in great situations and locations.