UKC

I used to be able to climb closer to my limit above trad gear and overcome fear that might have caused me to take. Now I struggle to even do it indoors. I don't know what's triggered it, it's just got worse as I have got older and have taken breaks for injuries. It's ruined the enjoyment of climbing outside for me, I now mostly just go indoors for the exercise and movement but I miss being able to even climb the big lead cave at my wall. In terms of physical climbing on a tight top rope, I'm on par with being as strong as I've ever been, so that's not the issue.

I can sometimes get back into it a little bit via a long process of dropping off the top of routes onto a not fully tight rope, then a slacker rope, then while leading easy climbs I'm not worried about falling off - more rope stretch. Doing this over time I can build up my ability to lead harder routes at the wall, but I still pick ones where I know the clips aren't too hard even if I have to do a hard move between clips. Occasionally I can drop off doing fall practice but never more then the clip at my feet. I haven't been able to get further than this. If I take a break from climbing due to illness or injury or other activities (because I want to be outside but climbing is not fun because of this) then it resets and I have to start again.

There is no thought to the fear like being worried about hurting myself on a specific fall, it's just an overwhelming feeling that blocks my mind from climbing and I end up taking or backing off. It's not as bad indoors but I will still find myself unable to make the move that I know I can do and taking.

I know that many climbers experience this but has anyone successfully overcome the feeling this bad?

There are aplenty of self help books dealing specifically with this, rock warriors way, climbing physiology etc... (I presume Hazel Findley must have done a book on this as well, she certainly does lots of on line stuff and coaching for it?). If you are really stuck and willing to pay there are also quite a few people who offer help with this professionally. I have had Dr Rebbeca Williams at  https://smartclimbing.co.uk/ reccomended

Has your life changed, do you have new responsibilities or perspective on our frailty?

It could be a perfectly reasonable response to things that happen to us. Climbing is a hobby, for the vast majority of us it is just not worth getting killed or worse for. If that fear is stripping your hobby of its joy then maybe do something else for a while, if it still matters to you in time then you'll drift back. If not you'll find something new. I just had the better part of a decade off, never knew I'd climbed my last, never missed it for a moment when it eventually dawned. Eventually the itch returned, different, but itchy.

Failing that, you can just work at familiarising yourself with the sensation of falling safely, basically more of what you're doing: more, bigger, less pre-prepared jumps graduating to real falls, gradually building up a reserve of trust and experience in both system and partner. It takes work but you can in my experience eventually get quite desensitised. That maybe isn't ideal away from grid-bolted ,floor-padded indoor walls, there could be a good reason you're now questioning past judgements.

Perhaps better to also have a good hard think about what's really at the root of your growing fear, you don't want to find yourself desensitised to and therefore failing to mitigate real risk.

jk

This really doesn't sound like an extreme case, I mean this in a positive way, it sounds fairly normal!

There is a good lattice video I worked through with a friend recently. https://youtu.be/33ODIivxhF8?si=SN4Y2OnNcGKYQMDM

We thought that the main point was about changing the internal dialogue to being positive and keeping things fun when doing fall practice.

progression
eg clip and then drop off when ready
clip and then drop instantly
clip make a move then drop
clip then make 2 moves etc

I think consistency and repeated practice is really important, when we have entrenched habits and behaviours we need multiple sessions to overcome.

There is, I think a middle way that possibly most climbers take most of the time and certainly for trad. That is to treat the rope a bit like the seatbelt in a car; you don't expect it to be needed but it is nice to know it is there if something goes wrong. You may still take an unexpected fall very occasionally but you never push expecting that you may well fall, just like you never get in your car expecting to crash but you know it might happen unexpectedly once or twice in a lifetime. It means you will always be climbing within your limits but there are still ways of increasing your limit (bouldering, top-roping) and therefore also the standard you actually climb at. 

This idea that you have to be taking falls regularly to improve is a relatively new idea from sport climbing and seems to have been transferred by some people, perhaps unwisely, to trad.

I suppose it depends what you enjoy most about climbing, I appreciate its different for everyone but my best experiences are when I push my self to just the right side of my physical and mental abilities, this is a fine line and sometimes it means you end up on the wrong side of the line and falling.

Mind you falling isn't something I've ever practised, it seems to happen naturally often enough!

I would agree practice falls on trad does seem quite a new, and I'm not sure a great thing, but to climb well you need to be able to commit to positions/sequences above gear and accept falling as a possible consequence.  for me this is the best thing ever and I certainly understand why others might seek it. 

Fear of falling? NO! Lovely, swooping through the air like a bird!

It's crashing into the ground that worries me 

It's not the rope that causes me concern, it's the gear.  Even when it's bolts!

​​​That's not really the issue I've never had that approach to trad I just used to be able to do actual moves about gear while onsight climbing.

First I'd like to be able to push myself indoors again and not be always taking before hard moves above the clip on lead. That's not really a genuine safety concern that's stopping me.

Thanks for the recommendation, I will definitely check out her book.

A few thoughts as someone who has been terrified of heights for decades (ironically, not when I first tried climbing as a kid.. not sure why). I've not solved it, but I never thought I would lead trad, so clearly made some massive inroads! 

As others have said, has your anxiety or stress (even subconscious from life pressures) changed? I find that how I'm feeling mentally about other stuff crosses over so much to how I'm feeling with climbing. That can vary from day to day as much year to year.

There is of course also the physical stuff - having slept poorly really impacts my fear climbing, and it took me a long time to realise that I was often trying to push myself to climb when I was unwell (particularly the beginning of vestibular migraines - it often took me a while to realise that that was what was happening) - so I assume there's nothing physical going on-?

For me, the idea of beating myself up and doing fall practice etc (so often lauded) was exactly the opposite of what I needed. I needed to start small and get to a place of feeling comfortable, however easy or slow or gentle I climbed. That includes feeling comfortable before you're even on the wall - ie a good relationship with your belayer, calm environment (the wrong music played too loud messes with me!), not being in a rush, etc etc.

I've swung back and forth into periods of really low confidence/high fear throughout my climbing career, and going back to the very simple stuff, or sometimes actually just *not* climbing for a while and leaving it until the psych comes back organically and takes over, tends to get me there eventually. It can be so easy to beat yourself up over not finding X grade comfortable, and then you just make the whole experience miserable. That doesn't force you to get braver - it actually teaches your brain that this *isn't* a psychologically safe environment, in my experience.

Of course it helps to have a Grit Diffs Club (or whatever you want to call yours) with some mates who don't make you feel under pressure to climb harder stuff. Make it silly. Take a picnic. Fancy dress. Whatever. 

Then, pushing yourself a bit on the days you feel braver is of course needed to make some headway. When I definitely *want* to try, but I'm just finding it scary, I do stupid little stuff like talk to myself in German or sing or just try to distract the panic part of my brain. 

I have seen some really great material on fear in climbing that really resonates with me. Will just try to remember whose it was...! 

Rebecca Williams, but just seen someone has already recommended her. Not used the resources but listened to a great talk by her that really chimed with me. 

Ofc feel free to ignore the above - I'm still ruddy terrified and I still avoid ever falling, so I definitely haven't fixed this any more than you have  

As other people have said, what you describe seems very normal and perhaps it only seems extreme to you because you are measuring it against past performance.

My personal approach to fear is not to focus on the fear and the falling: you can end up pathologising yourself and preoccupied with confronting stress and fear head on. This is a recipe for misery, IMHO.

Instead, be patient with yourself. Dial the difficulty back to a place where you can feel totally relaxed whilst climbing. Begin there and focus on the joy. Don't rush.

Gradually, the joy and excitement will push you on toward more challenging climbs because you're itching for it, whilst the ability to relax will spread into a wider and wider comfort zone.

This sounds like a fairly traditional approach (mileage!), but for me it's not centred on volume of climbing but on feeling relaxed and happy whilst climbing, and letting that become the emotion that dominates, rather than stress. You can still push a bit, but retreat to your comfortable place whenever it gets too stressful.

After having some fear of falling (like most) I did some research and chatted with a few people. The most important advice that came was that it's important to become *bored* of falling. I did it by doing 'clip drop' exercises. Basically just drop after each clip. If you do this from the third clip up on a few routes, you'll get pretty bored and thats the plan. Once you get bored (really bored) try making one move above the clip and dropping. 

Not sure this will help you but it seemed to do the trick for me (apart from the fear of hitting the wall when falling - I think that's partly sensible)

This is very important, in my experience. It’s not necessarily that falling should become boring (it really should), rather that each practice fall should be boring, or as close to boring as you can make it. No excitement at any point! Find the dull zone and work right on the edge of it, eventually it will expand. It also takes a lot of falls - in the hundreds. Log them so you know how many it takes, this is invaluable information about yourself and your psychological make up.

This is broadly my experience too, with respect to sport climbing and indoor lead climbing.

I found I have two problems with practice falls. Firstly, I got really good at intentionally jumping off, but it didn't translate into being calmer when faced with a situation where I might actually fall off (outside of my control). Secondly, it put way too much emphasis in my climbing on falling, I was constantly checking the position of the bolt, the length of the fall etc. This stopped me really focusing on climbing moves. 

What's been working way better for me is to work on focus. Focus on my breathing, focus on placing each foot and hand deliberately and confidently. 

Just focus 100% on the climbing, and the fear naturally diminishes. 

The other thing I've found helpful is to redpoint routes that are close to my physical limit as it forces me to focus more on the climbing. Then I consequently end up taking unexpected falls where I try hard, miss the hold and take an actual fall (not jumping off). Then you start to really diminish the fear of leaving a rest into a crux you might not make.

Trad or high bouldering is probably different, as you're facing very serious consequences. But even then, if you choose to set off on it, it's better to focus on what you're trying to execute than freaking out and shaking your way up a sketchy situation. 

Once you've dialled in the fall training on an indoor wall, I found Arno Ilgner's book 'Espresso Lessons' pretty useful for building a strategy for assessing fall risk outdoors; it helped me push through my plateau grade a bit.

FYI, expresso lessons is the shortened version of the rock warriors way.  I found expresso lessons a little hard to follow and not very inspiring personally whereas I thought the rock warriors way was really good in explaining the context and theory behind the condensed stuff.

I would also add re fall training, if this is somthing you want to get into (i'm not convinced its always the answer myself) you need to make sure you understand the process properly. If you do it badly I.e. taking small lobs just above a bolt with the belayer taking you tight you will end up with nasty falls slamming you into the wall which may make things worse!

Espresso

I used to be very fall-phobic as well as having a bit of a problem with needles when needing to give blood.  I found the issue with both was a fear of something that very rarely happened and was based on imagining the worst version of what could happen.  I would go literally decades without falling or needing a blood test.  More recently, I've done both a lot more frequently and consequently there's much less drama. 

Until something really goes wrong, of course!

I thought the book did the job, I didn’t need an inspiring read, just a framework to take outside. Agree about bad lobs, but fairly easy to avoid doing it badly given a bit of belaying experience. It worked very well for me.

Thank you. "Expresso" curdles my soul.

Alas being horribly dyslexic and not being able to see the difference curdles my soul. Just be thankful you don't have to deal with it on a daily basis.

Very similar experience here. I have a totally irrational fear which stops me in my tracks anywhere above a bolt (or even right by one) on sport or indoors if it's hard enough to possibly fall off, or just make the next clip a bit tough. I just freeze and say take. 

Oddly, I like highball bouldering, and after a few ups and jumps off I'll commit to a hard move pretty much at my limit, even with a not-nice fall below. Soloing is fine, don't care how high I am as long as I'm not getting pumped - I can be on pretty small holds and as long as I'm in control, it's all gravy even if it's supposedly not far from my lead grade. Trad climbing is terrifying if I'm anywhere near falling off, even if there's gear next to my face, but is totally fine if I'm in control even if I'm 10m above a shit RP.

There's no logic to it, except that I don't trust the rope.

There's reasons I ended up like this (experiencing and belaying a succession of bad trad groundfalls where gear ripped and someone ended up in hospital - you forget the uneventful ones), and I have tried a few things to get out of it, which haven't worked. If I really set my mind to it, I'm sure I could in theory overcome it.

For me, I've never liked sport climbing, I love soloing, bouldering, bold trad, adventurous climbing. So I can't be arsed to invest all the effort it would take to get better, which would be very useful for sport, indoors and well-protected trad. Which I'm not that bothered about, so I just do the stuff I enjoy, and still get utterly terrified 30cm above a bolt or double big blue cams. So be it.

Apologies ebdon: it wasn't meant to be a dig at you or your spelling. Rather, people often say "ex-presso", instead of "espresso", when they order coffee. And I have family ties to Italy, so it's a bit like pineapple on pizza or asking for two "paninis". I was thinking more of the cultural blasphemy than the spelling per se.

I have gone through phases of doing fall practice and then being prepared to take sport falls, but, three months ago, having done none for ages and having taken no indoor falls for ages and with a big sport trip coming up, I thought I better do some. So, a whole session of it with some definite progress. The very next day, going for a clip, I took my first real fall in ages and broke a finger. Trip cancelled and I've just got back to climbing at all, very much back to square one.

The best way to minimise the fear of falling for me is to climb with someone who loves you dearly or you owe money to.

Would you order a “panino” in the U.K. if you wanted just the one?

What if nobody loves you and you're not in debt?

This might sound a bit odd but I actually think jumping off auto belays helps my falling fear. I learned to climb long before we had autos so got used to the secure feeling of the tight rope before lowering off at the speed chosen by my trusted belayer. With the auto, you don't get to sit on the "rope" or have any control of the decent speed. There's no human trust to consider either so I think it just strips it right back whether (or not) you trust the safety system to do its job. I think its just about convincing your primitive brain that those relatively thin bits of metal and fibres that make up our equipment are actually capable of holding you. I think also maybe because nobody else has any responsibility for my safety with an auto, I'm forced to give in to gravity and be fully present in the acceptance of the fall as well as with the trust I'm choosing to place in the equipment. The fact that the equipment and setup is slightly different doesn't apparently stop me from gaining confidence that transfers into other systems, like leading. 

You don't say what grade of trad you want. Being scared of falling on anything below about e2, say, is very healthy in my opinion. 

I like the approach in this book Climbing Psychology by Kevin Roet https://www.climbers-shop.com/publications/reference-and-instruction/climbi...

Possibly the best page in it as about what a belayer should do to support their leader. The skills and empathy of the belayer can be a bit forgotten in the whole scheme of things.

Yes, I would because i can be pedantic.  But my partner is italian, so I understand the difference.  However, when i have said "one panino, two panini" to someone in a cafe, they just looked at me blankly.  It's wasted effort in this country.

I've struggled with this for years. Used to have a very good trad head and rarely, if ever fell, if I did fall then I took it in my stride. Then in my mid 20s I took a fall at Anglezarke on a climb I'd done loads before. Pulled off a flake going over an overhang, this unfortunately had my bomber gear behind it. Fell onto some RPs and marginal gear, it all ripped due to the impact and I decked. Hard, but not as hard as it could have been! Stripped a few wires.

Since then (like 20 years later) I've been so massively variable with trad that it's extremely annoying. Sometimes I'll be fine, other times can't even get on the end of the rope. Weirdly okay with scrambling and alpine stuff though...

Pedantry is rife in the UKC fora.

Fear of falling in climbing has some reoccurring themes/ causes. Most of these are discussed and some techniques for control outlined by many of the books like “the rock warriors way” and also general package workshops provided by Hazel Findlay and Lattice training.

I attended a small workshop hosted by The Performance Psychologist which I found beneficial, again this concentrated on common concerns and responsive techniques. I believe The Performance Psychologist also provides 1 on 1 mentoring focusing on mindset, which I imagine is personally tailored to your specific fear response.

https://www.theperformancepsychologist.com/

You should try leading easy routes at Harpur Hill.  You can climb confidently, in complete control, on good bolts and sooner or later a massive hold will snap off and you’ll fall miles.
 

All good practice, assuming your second survives.