UKC

Evening all

Im planning on taking the adult kids up Helvellyn from Thirlmere on Thursday.

The temp at 800 m is predicted to be subzero.

We have kahtoola microspikes but the fell top assessors have said crampons may be needed.

I’ve a pair of kahtoola KTS with me and will buy the girls some Grivel Monta Rosa.

Do you think that the KTS are suitable for this approach if hard water ice is encountered? I’ve never walked up from Thirlmere and it looks pretty steep around Brown Cove Crags.

ta

dave 

What boots will you have them on? That makes a big difference to how they perform. They show their limitations on ice or hard snow once you get past walking angle but up to that point they're fine. 

How experienced are your kids? I'd be more worried about inexperienced walkers on icy terrain regardless of what they had on their feet than an experienced walker on the same terrain in KTS crampons.

Thanks Dave

I would be wearing them and have used them at 45 degrees on ice where they got a bit sketchy.

They would be on a B1 boot Alltberg Nordkapp. The KTS are a few years old and probably not as sharp as they were, so I think I will just get some Monta Rosa too.

One of the girls has had crampons on regularly but the other is a novice.

They have B1 boots too so I will nip into the shop tomotrrow and see if they are suitable for Monta Rosa.

Are you familiar with the route from the Thirlmere car park to Browncive Crags/ Helvellyn? It looks a reasonable objective to take a novice if prepared to turn back?

ta

dave

Are you talking about the path going up via point 859 in the attached photo? I'm afraid I don't know that route but given the conditions at the moment I'd be very surprised if there were unavoidable sections of steep ice or snow on that.

Yes, that’s the one Dave.

We had a reasonable  view of it from Blencathra yesterday and there looked to be summit snow.

We were going to go up Helvellyn but the Monday forecast put me off due to the wind, but, it wasn’t too windy at all.

However, the forecast for tomorrow is snow above 700 m which will freeze by Thursday if the forecast is correct.

I think I’ll take their boots to Needle Sports tomorrow and see if the Monta Rosa will fit them and go from there

thanks for your input

cheers

dave

I came down that way a couple of weeks ago. You have lost a fair bit of height by the time you get to the steep bit down the end of BCC, so unless there is loads of snow down to relatively low, I'd be surprised if you need crampons. A few weeks a go it was mainly rocky there with hard bits of snow in patches between the rocks and that was really slippy, I had taken my crampons off before there as there was so little snow, so had to be careful to stand on the rocks not on the snow patches. I was quite jealous of the people with micro spikes as they definitely seemed like the best compromise in those conditions!

Thanks a lot  for the information Toby.

cheers

dave

I've bumped into one of the felltop assessors, Zack, a couple of times over the last 6 weeks because searching for winter has taken me twice to Helvellyn! Really nice chap and they all do a great job. I think they see lots of people with no winter gear at all regularly, so I understand why they stress that, but having googled your Kahtoolas, they are proper mini crampons so I'm sure those will be fine even with more snow. I suspect what they mean by microspikes is more the less aggressive chain and rubber ones which certainly have their place, but clearly have limits in heavier snow conditions particularly after a re freeze. 

Yes, they're proper walking crampons, not the same sort of thing as microspikes at all. Points are slightly shorter that the likes of a Grivel Monte Rosa and they have no horizontal front points but the difference is rarely noticeable on walking terrain.

A lot of the steeper part at the Thirlmere end of the ridge is paved steps

The steps can be a bit slippery lower down in the damp/wet if descending fast

I have used Kahtoolas a few times on Sharp Edge and up the slabs to the plateau on Blencathra.  In varying conditions from frosty and verglas rocks to thin water ice and they are amazing.  The balance (unlike 12 point crampons) is more like rock scrambling and you can move with speed and agility not possible with crampons on thin iced rock and without any of the foot and ankle strain introduced by crampons in thin conditions.  I didn't take the axes off my back and just used foot and hands even though the rocks were iced up.  They transformed the experience for me.

However, you have to be happy to explore this yourself - I'm not recommending people to do this without trying it out and finding how they do with them in less critical terrain

Thanks Toby and all

Ive just purchased the girls some crampons.

Skidda has snow to about 850 m and helvellyn too.

Hopefully a good winter day tomorrow 

But are you talking about the KTS or the Microspikes? They are quite different beasts!

Ah,

mea culpa.  I was using the name generically for their microspikes.  I stand corrected.

As a couple of others have already said the Kahtoola KTS is a totally different product to their Microspikes.

Microspikes are small (micro) spikes on a chain structure that attaches to footwear with a rubber band. Fantastic bits of kit, but not a crampon.

KTS are a proper crampon and at first glance very similar to Grivel G12. The obvious difference is that they are designed for running/walking so have a very flexible bar, which means they can be correctly fitted on flexible (B0) footwear. The spikes are a also a little shorter and they have no front points, so not suitable for climbing.

I'm not familiar with the conditions so can't say if they would be suitable for the OP, but assuming they will be walking rather than climbing and that front points aren't going to be required yes the KTS would probably be fine. As above, another benefit is that they are intended to be fitted to footwear that isn't rated by the manufacturer to be crampon compatible, so I believe popular with certain MRT teams when rescuing walkers who have been caught out with inadequate footwear.

Dave said in his original post that he has the KTS model so I'm sure knows all this. It was me who only realised on googling them that they are actual crampons not chain and rubber microspikes. 

Thanks Jenny and Toby.

I will feedback their limitations tomorrow hopefully compared to the girls Monta Rosa.

Comparing the KTS to the Monta Rosa, the KTS points are about half the length of the Monta Rosa.

Ive worn the KTS a lot on snowy hills and been fine, but the Monta Rosa’s are looking a lot more reassuring.

Forecast for helvellyn tomorrow is new snow of boot depth over old consolidated snow which is mainly on north and eastern aspects.

Hopefully my route choice for Helvellyn is a good one.

Cheers

dave

Everyone up there this morning was overcome by mountain joy so sublime a day was it.

Yes it was marvelous. We left Swirls at 1300 and got to the summit about 1500. Stunning views. Microspikes were fine for the entirety of this route and were needed.

We didn’t get to wear the crampons but nevermind.

The day was nearly ruined by two muppets with dogs. Two youngish blokes and two lurchery type dogs, one of which was thankfully on a lead near the trig point. The guys were happily vaping along and the unleashed dog bounded right to the edge of the cornice. They were feckin oblivious. Fortunately it came back when I shouted.

Anyway, it was a cracking day

cheers

dave