UKC

Dear Climbers. 

I am not entirely sure which forum this belongs to. This one is for ones seeking advice, so here we are, even though I am not a beginner really, more of an improver (I hope).

I will do my best to describe my problem. When I climb, I can't seem to understand or predict where or if there is going to be a rest position, or whether I'd be able to place gear there. For that reason I tend to stop mid sequence as soon as I see a gear possibility. I can't just climb past it because at that point in time I think what if this is the last gear I would find and there will be no more gear, or even if there is I would not be able to place it.

The other thing is I don't actually trust my gear, so again, I place something and immediately look to place a back up, then back up of a back up and so on. So there's little time or energy for actual climbing, just gear gear gear.

So if anyone was ever like this and you've managed to overcome it, how did you do it? I appreciate that for some people it just happens naturally with practice, but I don't think it does for me. So there's something I need to change in my approach or tactics or whatever. I just don't know what it might be.

Does anyone have any tips or drills to help me improve my onsight game? 

Thank you for reading. 

This seems a strange question from someone who lists E2 as their best onsite grade.

Sorry if I made it sound as if it stops me completely. I still manage to climb, just not in a style I would like.

No need to apologise, it just seemed a peculiar question from someone climbing at a good grade.

Would it be fair to assume that this is a problem at the higher grades, HVS, E1, E2, or is this all grades?

It's less of a problem at lower grades, but not because my approach is any different. It's just at lower grades, I obviously have more in reserve, so stopping mid-sequence to place gear is less tiring. Also the issue of not trusting gear is less pressing if you don't think you're going to fall anyway.

The only thing that helped me improve, in every sense, was to climb more but I can only climb 7a and E4 if I can climb every day for a month continuously with the odd rest day.  That's why my best climbing, grade wise, was after I retired from full time employement.

What sort of rock are you climbing generally?

One thing you can do is climb sport routes on gear, whilst also clipping the bolts, and take falls onto the intermediate gear (suggest you do this on 0 star routes in shiddy quarries, rather than blow out the holds on 3 star classics at Malham). That will help you build confidence in the quality of your gear and its ability to hold you. You can even do this on trad (again, ideally 0 star choss) by dangling a static with spaced draws clipped into it at regular intervals.

One thing I've seen people do is top-rope a route, placing an entire rack of gear however they can and as frequently as they can (this give you some right crap placements) on the way up a route. One the way back down, assess each piece and give it a score /10 then clip into it and get your belayer to pay out some slack. You'll be surprised what low numbers will hold you!

I'll caveat this with different rocks take a while to get your eye in for gear, and doing this sort of thing at Horseshoe will have diminishing returns for onsighting at Stanage. 

Edit to point out the obvious: some backup gear is not bad and it will always depend on an individuals appetite for risk. Perceived good gear does fail (or get kicked out - we've all been there), and if it's the difference between you and the ground when it didn't need to be then that's too much in the other direction. I'll usually sew up routes if I can, and often double-up on gear to have a bit on each rope where it's maybe not necessary. I don't climb hard (and am not too bothered about it) so would rather keep things PG. I'm sure I could be leading E4 if I just placed a bit every 4m and got on with it. 

What Gaston said. If you are very familiar with that rock type/crag then you'll know where there's likely to be good gear and you won't lace it unnecessarily before then. So lots of mileage on sighting as much as possible on lots of different rock types. 

I struggle with the same thing, but I don't think there is a magic bullet because so much of trad climbing is not black and white but about developing good judgement.

I would suggest that one thing you could do is to start consciously recognising good gear and thinking of each good piece of gear that comes with a rest as a safe haven. It then  gives you a positive way of thinking about moving efficiently from one safe haven to another. It's probably quite subtle, but being conscious and deliberate about this may help. It's a place to advance from and to retreat back to.

You may also find that it helps to think carefully about body position, as strenuous gear placement sometimes comes from placing gear without getting as much weight as possible on your feet. Perhaps on climbs within your comfort zone you could start being very deliberate about finding a good, balanced position before you place gear. Building this discipline and this awareness of holding excess tension or inefficient positions may then  begin to feed naturally into your harder climbing. I sometimes even have to remember to stretch my calves, rather than standing on tiptoes on good holds!

In line with what someone in the thread above said, sometimes "redundant" gear is helpful. I seem to remember James McHaffie mentioning in a vid somewhere that he always likes to have at least two pieces of gear between him and the ground, if possible. The video showed him climbing up and down a few times and hanging around on his arms in order to get that gear, before tackling the crux. So... even the best sometimes have to use a bit of caution rather than simply plugging and going. That caution can help you stay in one piece!

I think you need to find out why that is, and try to get over it.

How often have you fallen on your gear?

Have you had an experienced second comment on your placements?

How often does your gear come out once you have climbed above it?

The secret to onsighting is to climb LOTS! When you go climbing, get up 10 routes (or pitches) not three. Basically you need to become efficient at placing gear quickly and eeking out every resting position you can find. Also knowing when you can 'go for it' safely. I'm pretty sure I've climbed over 70 routes this month.

Mileage, mileage, mileage. 🙂🙂🙂

+1, or 2, 3  for mileage. Drop a grade and go for distance. Resting is almost always a feet and positioning. Sometimes good rests coincidence with gear placements, sometimes they don't, mileage will give confidence to pause briefly between gear if you feel it's a good spot. 

Climb more.

Second more, especially things at or above your lead limit. 
 

Pay attention to other climbers, and how they do things. Especially those who are better/more experienced. 

When climbing at your limit it’s good to place lots of gear, and back it up. 

I was very impressed with your stamina until I read your profile which says: “Tend to climb solely on grit”

I think your lack of trust in the gear is maybe the heart of all this. If you read guidebook descriptions well you should be able to determine if you're on something dangerous (plus the grade of course). Hence you can 'expect' to be able to find gear at reasonable intervals, or know where the runout sections are and plan for that. Select well described routes or listen to your mates advice about routes.

Then get someone with lots of experience to review your placements and your opinion of them too see if your judgement is off. I was of the old school in terms of not taking falls if I could help it. but i did manage to trust my judgement and not give a second thought to gear I thought was bomber.

Lol, I wrote that over 10 years ago. In the last few weeks I've climbed in Cornwall, Wales, Peak Lime, Malham & The Lakes. Although solo missions on grit definitely keep the numbers up 😅

Thank you for your thoughtful reply

I think this is basically what I want: to be able to move confidently from one safe haven to the next. But in practice, I don't know how to get there. I can't visualize in my head where the next safe haven will be. It is especially stressful for the first few metres when the ground is so close and looks so menacing.

I like your suggestion of being deliberate about finding a good, balanced position before gear placement when I am climbing in my comfort zone. I'll try it next time I am out. Maybe some new habit will start developing. 

I don't trust it because I know it can fail. I think I used to trust it more when I first started, but the trust has eroded over the years.

Not super-often, but enough. Hard to put the exact number. Possibly 1 fall per 100 routes

Yes, every time they struggle to get it out.

Almost never.

This sounds like a more generalised fear of falling. It seems your gear is good. When you say 'fail' do you mean the gear or the rock?

The first few metres can be fraught, again choose your routes, I was never that keen on routes that were full on right off the ground.

There is a reason routes are popular, so if you pick a 3* route with a tech grade to match the adjectival grade  (e.g. HVs 5am, E1 5b) and read the guidebook desicription carefully, you can have reasonable confidence that the gear will be there for it to be safe. 

So if you remove the doubt about where the next gear is coming from and know that it must be there, the next thing to practice is to try and enjoy that sensation of questing on from your last point of safety (good gear) into the unknown. Accept that this is the challenge and try to see the senations you are feeling differently. You're not scared; what you are you're feeling is a heightened sense of awareness etc.

The only other thing I woudl add to what is in the thread is that it is not just about finding a comfortable position to put in gear. Some of the skill of moving confidently is knowing when to pass a gear placement because you don't need it, or especially becuase to to stop and use it would be too strenuos and jeapordise your onsight.  Running it out for a few more moves and then placing gear from a place of comfort is a world of difference from pumping yourself stupid to get the gear in (but is sometimes necessary!).    

Not trusting or at least seriously questioning and placing plenty of trad gear isn't a bad starting point. Within reason.

Some gear is inherently questionable or becomes so as the rope run changes, some is simply solid and obviously reliable though still, single pieces be they well set wires or even bolts should be backed up putting something else between you and serious harm: ropes unclip, things occasionally fail in weird ways. You don't want to pare the system back too far.

How's your downclimbing, are you well able to explore a route incrementally, retreating to rest, augment or rearrange your protection as necessary? How do you feel about falling onto really good gear?

Ultimately you do need to develop a good idea of what good gear looks and feels like, what can compromise it and how far you'll go onto it in real world conditions. Also a good measure of where your physical and mental limits lie, how far you can press on to explore while still being able to safely escape the situation one way or another. From there you can actually choose the risks you're willing to take. Presuming you're familiar with the rock/crags where this happens it's going to boil down to getting really comfortable assessing risk quickly and accurately which mostly boils down to building experience and getting some trusted feedback to sense check your perceptions and decisions.

jk

Maybe find a very patient belayer, and set up a top rope. You climb up on another rope as if you were leading, but the top rope will always catch you. Place gear. Weight it with the "lead" rope, top rope stays just slack. If that works, try bounce testing the gear, again on a slack top rope. Maybe take some lobs on the gear (protected by the top rope). Repeat all the way up until you're happy you can place good gear. Swap places with your belayer (unless you're paying for a course)

You'll probably need to do multiple sessions, on different rock types. 

Don't do this on a 3* classic on a bank holiday.

Remember that this is training, not performing so don't focus on getting on a route at your limit.

Here are some useful ideas in this thread. Thank you all. Lots to ponder. Quite a few people suggested going for mileage, climb lots, etc. I can see where you're coming from, but wouldn't it be like the proverbial doing the same thing, expecting a different result? Let's say I climbed 1000 routes in this terrible style. Wouldn't this mileage only ingrain the bad habits even more? So I feel like there must be a missing ingredient. 

I think climbing past obvious gear is very difficult but at certain times the best thing to do. I never managed to get up London Wall at Millstone Edge without hanging on gear for this very reason.  Might I suggest practising this on routes that are within your comfort zone.  If you ever discover the secret to overcome this please let me know

I think the missing ingredient is usually our own consistent effort to improve subtle skills, like route reading, "manufacturing a rest" and assessing gear. Read, test, take on new situations, take notice of the nuances. But, if that isn't working and you have the spare cash, perhaps a day with a good instructor could boost you through this plateau to the next level? Just an idea Best of luck!

A few things for you, particularly noting that there is no magic cure-all and that there are exceptions and outliers to every tip or principle.

1.  Climbing more is always going to help, but depends on your circumstances.

2. Read the guide.  It will tell you a lot.  Be aware of grades to be approached with caution, unless the guide says 'sustained, but well-protected'.  Of note here are HVS 4c, E1 5a, E3 5b and E4 5c.  I can't say I have ever managed to categorise an E2 in this way, but they must be there.

3.  Be rational.  Your purpose is to climb a route, not to fill every nook and cranny with gear. 

4.  Breathe, and periodically have a firm word with yourself.

5.  Place gear as well as you can, and assess it critically for three things.  Its inherent qualities, the probability of it being tested in earnest and the consequences should it fail.  If these elements are incompatible, then place something better, retreat or accept the risk.  If they align, crack on.  'Two pieces between you and hospital' is a good maxim.

6.  Falling on natural gear as an exercise will teach you that the subject placement was OK (or not).  It teaches you very little about the next placement.  You know that the system of belayer, ropes and runners works.  Beyond that, most things are variable and have to be assessed and value judgements made about them every time.  Bear in mind also, that a fall will have an effect on the runners that are not taking the fall (typically with a sideways pull for which they were not originally conceived).  This is particularly relevant if the top runner fails to hold the fall successfully, but enough to apply unhelpful forces to the others (cp 'two pieces between you and hospital')

7. Try and adjust your position to a less stressful one when placing gear.  Not always possible, but hugely beneficial if you can.  And relax - don't over-grip.

8.  Be prepared for the conundrum - 'If I stop to place gear, I will probably fall off somewhere above.  If I keep going, I'll probably make it.'  The choice is yours....

9.  Make sure you can find your gear efficiently.  For me, wires and short QDs go on a bandolier and are easily accessible with either hand.  Cams go front left and long QDs front right.  The other loops on my harness are empty.  Works for me, but I rarely see anyone else with a bandolier.  

10.  If you're placing lots of runners, rope drag may be your enemy.  One thing that it took me a depressingly long time to learn is how to gauge the length of a sling under an overlap or roof.  Clip you chosen sling and then hold the rope up to where it will cross the lip - if the sling causes an angle, it's too short.  A sling measured against the roof is often too short.  In a similar vein (ie it took me years to realise), if wires are racked so that they curve the same way, it's easier to compare sizes.

Hope something in that helps.

I don't know if anyone has already suggested this but something I used to do was to rack up with my full trad rack then boulder/traverse along a few feet above the ground. Good for the training of fingers/forearms, good for looking for placements and no stress on your state of mind (unless you oafishly pick a busy day on a popular crag).

I definitely don't remember you climbing how you describe 11 or so years ago when we last climbed together but then as you said above your mistrust in gear has grown over time - I find that interesting given your seconds struggle to remove it, and it doesn't fall out when you climb above it - can you pinpoint anything which has changed to make you lose trust? 

It also sounds like a general fear of falling problem to solve to me too, but it seems like you do plenty of trad mileage to me, so I think you are right in needing to do things slightly differently. 

As others have said: on many classic routes between E1 - E3 (and often above that too) it is very rare that you can actually "climb into trouble" and you can generally trust that some gear will come.

Placing extra (but perhaps not needed) pieces from a restful position is one thing, but stopping to place bits of gear in the middle of the crux/steep section when you're facing a safe fall is another, and I'd focus on that part if I were you. 

I wonder if you could try some exposure therapy. Get on some routes of whatever grade you find this problem starts happening at and set yourself the challenge of placing one or two bits, then climbing X moves, place a bit more, climb X moves and repeat to the top. Perhaps it would help if you did this on a route with an obvious crack where you could literally stop and place gear every move as that will force you to get used to deciding not to.

Dave Macleod has lots of good videos on this topic of gaining confidence for trad which might be helpful
youtube.com/watch?v=o3JuLbLZ3wc& and youtube.com/watch?v=KqoZQIbkWYs& in particular come to mind. 

Had a quick scroll but disappointed to report  that none of your fabled (non grit) 10 pitch days jumped out at me…

Is it a case of do as I say, not as I do? 

However, I do think that a steady build up through the grades is a good base even if it’s  not the whole story. Everyone is different and boldness changes at different points in your life.

It seems to me that the OP is acting in the way a normal well adjusted person might be expected to in risky situations. Maybe some maladjusting is required to help them run it out with confidence.

High achieving climbers seem to major on spectacular levels of ego and arrogance, OCDness, cavalier approach to mortality and/or competitiveness all built on a basic passion for climbing. Maybe the OP should get in touch with the less savoury aspects of their personality to score higher grades! or even question whether it’s worth the pain (and risk) given sport and bouldering provide safer outlets to scratch the climbing itch.

Also a good couple of lobs helps to remind that gear actually works. 

Oh well, I only log routes that I've led or soloed clean. None of the routes I've seconded, dogged or repeated are on there. I'd expect my logbook would have twice as many routes on there if I included these.  Most importantly though, is that I don't fill my logbook in to impress you, or to try and 'jump out' at you. 😅

It’s not to do with impressing but rather whether you actually practice what you have preached which is to do 10 proper pitches a day. 

I did a quick Google and found Stomach Traverse (E2 5a); nobody‘s logged it and there‘s no route info, which must tell us something - anybody have any info/anecdotes on this hidden gem?

Mousetrap at Gogarth is E2 5a

Though it's questionable whether it really deserves the E2 part.

Hi Conor. Was it really 11 years? That's crazy! Hope all is good with you. Do you still get out regularly? Would be great to catch up!

I think I've always been a nervous and timid leader. It may not always be obvious to an observer, but in my head there's a lot going on, that I could do without. 

It's an interesting idea Dave Macleod talks about in one of those videos. The ability  vs the comfort zone and whether those two match or not. My takeaway is that I may benefit if I seek out the routes that have sections that feel bold, but ultimately safe. So that's what I am going to try.

To everyone else in this thread,  thank you very much for your time and your thoughts on the subject. I will reread it a few times and think it all over. There's probably already the answer to my problem there somewhere, but it will take time for me to see it.

A couple of questions that might help you process:

1. How do you find falling on bolts, and especially bigger run outs on bolts? (eg Malham.)

2. How do you cope with run outs with simply no gear available? Can you commit and focus or are you thinking about the fall?

The reason I ask is that it could be that you fear falling itself or it could be that you are being distracted by gear at the wrong time. Or if you genuinely don't trust your assessment of gear then the practice tips others have suggested may help.

Having made an assessment that it's ok to commit, it helps if you can then switch off that bit of your brain and focus on the moves. Remain aware of gear and be flexible obviously, but moving can be above gear in the priority list. Obviously you are constantly assessing the situation and consequences, but the key is focusing on the right thing at the right time. Second guessing the decision to commit is unlikely to help. Even if the consequences are severe, if committed, you still have to focus.

It might help if you vocalise your thought process by telling your belayer whats going on: "I've got something but I'm looking for better gear", " This is good gear, I'm going for it" 

Finally I tend to identify resting positions by noticing good footholds. If I can get on my feet, I can generally rest.