UKC

Most of all, and most of the time, I love it. I hoover up comps online, the gym is a home with its own eccentric family members, and I have watched countless youth climbers mature into adult crushers with joy and admiration. Climbing is my happy place inside and outside, in the UK and abroad.

Most of the time.

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Thanks for posting this Ingrid - it's great to hear more older women's voices (though, if I've got my calculations correct and you're in your early 50s, you're not really that old and there are plenty of women in their 60s and 70s out on the crags).

Personally, I find the assumptions of other climbers quite amusing, and enjoy confounding them, especially if I can do it by climbing better than them.  Interestingly I find it's older men who are most likely to make  assumptions, rather than younger people, male or female.

However, I appreciate that these assumptions can pose more of a barrier to less bloody-minded women.

A couple of tips for older women climbers:

1.  HRT is a game-changer.  Recent studies have shown that long- and short-term health benefits outweigh the risks in most cases, and GPs are now far more happy to prescribe it than they were a few years ago.

2.  A diagnosis of osteoporosis can mess with your headgame and bump up travel insurance premiums, as I've found to my cost.  With hindsight, I'd think carefully about having a DEXA bone density scan unless there's a good reason for doing so. 

(For more information about climbing and bone health, see my article at https://verticalyoga.org/2022/09/19/bone-health-climbing-and-yoga/.)

Excellent article.  Thank you.

Enjoyed that…good read.

Thank you for writing this! You've expressed so clearly how I've started to feel more regularly when out climbing. I've wondered lately why am I still trying so hard to climb harder and be stronger. Perhaps I should just focus on my 2 aspiring climbing children. But you've reminded me of why I climb (the post climb Mythos at Fatolitos bar being a key one!) and that I've got to hold my place at the wall and the crag. Especially as an older female climber but mostly because I love climbing. 

Interesting piece. Keep on climbing!! I had to look up "heteronormative cis-gendered" and think I am a heteronormative cis-gendered man. 

If you had to look it up, you almost certainly are. ;⁠-⁠)

I enjoyed Ingrid's article too. As another 51 year old with an, at times stressful, full time job and aches and pains from still trying to climb, there's lots I empathize with. But also the descriptions of gyms, comps and trips (I only know mythos as the classic La Sportiva shoes, didn't know there was - if I understand correctly - a drink of that name! 😀) brought it home to me just how different people's experience of what "climbing" is from mine, yet we still all love it. 

Hey Ingrid. 

Great article, thank you. 
There’s a whole other article around age and perception of normality in society these days. A subject my climbing partner and I were discussing while training on Sunday. To step out from what is considered normal can be hard (especially for women, as you point out) and always leads to weird looks and strange questions, but for me ‘they’ can keep the pub, the soaps, and the 2 car PCP’s!!! 
Hope to see you for that Mythos through the winter, but make it on the mainland

Mike. 

Old woman!

Man!

Man, sorry. What knight lives in that castle over there?

I’m thirty-seven.

What?

I’m thirty-seven. I’m not old!

Well, I can’t just call you ‘man.’

Well, you could say Dennis.

Well, I didn’t know you were called Dennis.

Well, you didn’t bother to find out, did you?

I'm have no doubt the writer of the article, nor you or anyone else contributing this thread meant no harm, but heteronormative really isn't a term you ought to start or continue to use.  It's a somewhat discriminatory term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronormativity 

Gosh; what a can of non-heteronormative worms.

What do you mean by this comment? Heteronormative isn't discriminatory as far as I know, it's just a descriptor attached to structures, systems, assumptions, which consider heterosexuality as 'the norm'. Heternormativity (the thing, not the word) is considered by some a form of discrimination against those outside of it, but the term itself isn't considered discriminatory by most (or anyone I know)? I don't think the way the author uses it is problematic either unless I've missed something?

Not having a pop, just curious as it's perfectly possible that I'm in the wrong here!

Off on a bit of tangent here - but it's also in a weird way a bit of an oxymoron. 'heterogenous' being from a greek root literally meaning 'diversity'.

Great article, thanks OP. 

(Trying valiantly to avoid getting swept into enticing etymological side quests...)

That is really funny. The evolution of language is so cool!

Yes, homogenous is sameness, lack of diversity. 'Hetero' could be translated as other, another or different (in the way that male and female are different). Despite the definitions which seem to come up when I put in 'heteronormative', I'd understood it to be a wider term about the normalisation of male/female in society in general. So that would also include a resistance to gender identities which broke from the norm, a resistance to crossdressing etc.

But yes, I can't really see how the term in of itself could be discriminatory.    

I don't "mean" anything by it, just thought that the poster would appreciate the info that the word they had apparently for the first time is not entirely without issue.  If I'd innocently used a word which some may find offensive, I'd probably want to politely be made aware of it too.  

Gentle suggestion that you could google "is hetronormative an offensive term?"

Edit:  I did it for you

While not inherently a slur, "heteronormative" can be used in a way that is offensive due to its implications. It describes a system of thought that assumes everyone is heterosexual and that this is the "normal" or superior way to be, which can be hurtful to LGBTQ+ individuals. 

Here's why it can be offensive:

Reinforces oppression:

Heteronormativity normalizes heterosexuality while marginalizing other sexual orientations and gender identities, creating a hierarchy where LGBTQ+ people are seen as deviant or abnormal. 

Leads to discrimination:

This perspective can lead to discrimination in various social institutions, including marriage, employment, and legal rights. 

Invalidates LGBTQ+ experiences:

By assuming everyone is heterosexual, heteronormativity invalidates the lived experiences and identities of LGBTQ+ individuals, making them feel unseen, unheard, and abnormal. 

Creates a hostile environment:

The constant reinforcement of heteronormativity can create a hostile environment for LGBTQ+ individuals, where they may feel pressured to conform or hide their true selves. 

While the term itself is not inherently a slur, it's important to be mindful of how it's used and the impact it can have on LGBTQ+ individuals. Using language that assumes heterosexuality or devalues other sexual orientations can be harmful and contribute to a discriminatory environment. 

Yeah, you can find a lot of things googling. Seems a bit like saying the term 'racism' is discriminatory. Being racist is, certainly.

If anything the term is used more by minority groups! I can't imagine many straight folk use it as part of their general vocabulary.  

It's a very different beast. While heterosexual might describe the most common class of sexual persuasion, the word heteronormative implies that this is the norm, which implicitly suggests that other persuasions are abnormal. If you see a room full of people inclusing some with Down's Syndrome, would you be fine with calling the others 'the normal ones'?

Racism simply describes the nature of a particular class of discrimination.

That would be a can of hermaphrodite-normative worms if you don’t mind.

To be fair, it is the norm. That is different to saying 'normal people' or some such, as you well know.

The poster above me suggests that like a lot of things it's context dependent. But I'm struggling to find a context in which the word would be problematic unless it's being used incorrectly. Talking about 'heteronormative people' would be a misuse of the term. A lot of words could be unacceptable if used wrongly. But that's not the way the term is applied.

Yes, but as a criticism of exactly that assumption rather than an endorsement of it. Or at least that's the only way I've ever heard it used. The AI answer that Iamgregp posted completely misses the point. It's describing why heteronormativity is an offensive attitude for people to adopt, not giving any reason why the term itself would be offensive to use.

A closer equivalent than racism might be "ableism". The attitude is offensive, not using the term to call it out.

Which is true to a point. But a 'norm' is also commonly something to be conformed to, something society holds up as being a worthy objective. To justify use of a term by focusing on only one definition (common, more prevalent) while ignoring other widespread meanings (acceptable standard, desirable goal) is to leave a gate open for unwanted misinterpretation.

Exactly. And I'm unconvinced as yet that the term is only a reference to sexual orientation. In a recent novel I read, one of the protagonists who identifies as 'gender fluid' describes much of wider society as heteronormative bullshit. Doesn't sound like too problematic a use of the term?   

Like the google search referenced above, I could pen some good reasons off the top of my head why 'queer' is discriminatory. But the term has been embraced by many gay people, and is therefore deemed acceptable.

Oh, that is just brilliant!

It's often used in a negative (not offensive or discrimatory way) sense to describe a world, a culture, or a thing designed such that those outside of "the norm" (here being heterosexuality) are not made to feel accepted, catered for, or welcome. It isn't really like "queer" in being reclaimed - it's just a critical descriptor. 

@iamgrep I think despite your best intentions, I think you've been led down a blind alley by an AI chat bot. I would modify your prompt from "how could X" be considered offensive to "is X generally considered offensive". Or better yet, ask a friend who is not heterosexual what they think!

Nonsense -using the word racism doesn't reenforce the view that any race is superior to another, you've used a completely false equivalence here.

The equivalence in these terms would be if a people started referring to themselves as "Whitenormative" thus reenforcing the view that other races are abnormal.  which of course would be unacceptable, yet the "heteronormative" word is ok in your eyes?  

You should ask yourself why that is.

Sure the term queer has been embraced by the LGBTQI+ community, but  that doesn't make it's use universally acceptable if I shourted it at a group gay men on the street I could rightly be accused of commiting a hate crime.

The N word has been embraced by black people.  Do you deem that word acceptable?

There's nothing inherently wrong with the term heteronormative.

It's perfectly acceptable for me to say: "I think the UK is an example of a heteronormative society.".

It is probably not acceptable* for me to say: "I think heteronormative societies are good.".

The article and Chris_Mellor in this thread have used heteronormative to describe a person. Article:  "many heteronormative cis-gendered women of my generation". Chris_M: "I am a heteronormative man".

I imagine in both cases they meant that the person/people they're describing fit in to heteronormative society, i.e. they are heterosexual. Unfortunately I think it reads (and probably does mean) that the person they're describing upholds heteronormative ideals, i.e. they think only heterosexual relationships are correct/right. The latter is discriminatory, the former is not. Given that the latter is, in my view, the way most people are likely to read it, describing people that don't hold heteronormative views as heteronormative is probably best avoided.

Fwiw dictionaries are not very consistent on what heteronormative means.

Oxford Languages (the google definitions):
"denoting or relating to a world view that promotes heterosexuality as the normal or preferred sexual orientation."

Collins:
"Heteronormative means regarding heterosexual relationships and behaviour as normal."

Cambridge:
"suggesting or believing that only heterosexual relationships are normal or right and that men and women have naturally different roles"

The Cambridge definition adds quite a significant extra chunk to the other two definitions and oversteps what I understand heteronormative to mean.

*Obviously some people will think this is acceptable/right, but let's imagine we're woke (side note, I think woke may now be under fire for being cultural appropriation).

Yes I agree with yuo 100%.  If you were to use Heteronormative as a criticism or obeservation of society then that would be completely acceptable.  It's in this context the term was first coined.

If you're using it to describe yourself, or other persons as substitute for heterosexual, then that problematic in my eyes.  Which is why I advised that people ought to stay clear of the term in the first place as I don't think they quite grasped the nuance.

In short, if you're not quite sure, just use heterosexual.

You're saying that most people in the world are classed as white? Nope, don't think that's correct.

"yet the "heteronormative" word is ok in your eyes?"  

I will accept it could be context dependent, and in particular it appears to be being misused by the person writing the article. There's nothing wrong with the word in of itself, but it's meant to describe wider society, not an individual.

Not many. And therefore, no, I don't deem it acceptable.

What a silly counter argument.  At what point did I say I held that view?  It was a hypothetical example to show you how weak your point was.  And this reply is perhaps even weaker.

Agreed.  I'm glad you're starting to understand the issues around this word.

It was a bloody useless example. How can something that isn't the norm be normative?

Only when it's used incorrectly. 

Is that perhaps enough posts about this bit of semantic wrangling now?  It isn't (supposed to be) the topic of this thread. 

Clearly nobody is about to change their mind, maybe time to agree to disagree and move on?   (I do realise the irony of it being me saying this.)

What seems to be getting missed here is that normality and normativity aren't the same. One reflects the norm and the other (usually) asserts what that norm should be.

In the article it's being misused, but in a common way, because people assume hetero-normative means conforming to the norm, but it actually means asserting heterosexuality as the preferred norm.

It's only a useless example when applied to the world's population, which I didn't, that was you =r addition which you added to make your strawman argument make sense.

But anyway this is kind of the crux of the whole issue - it is normal to be gay, trans, bi, intersex etc despite the fact that most people aren't.  So yes, something that isn't the norm (as in most frequent) can still be normative (as in normal).

However I'm starting to wonder if you think non Cis, heterosexual people are normal.

I think the problem is that you think that "normative" is a synonym of "normal" when it isn't. To use your alternative example, we do already live in a "white-normative" - a society where those of us are white have certain privileges because within the structures of power, being white is seen as the norm and being non-white is not seen as the norm. 

https://blog.smu.edu/ot8317/2016/05/09/heteronormativity/#:~:text=According...

Wonder all you like.

I wonder why there’s so few women’s voices on here?

Totally. 3 or 4 women posting to say the article resonates with them, then 30-odd posts from men arguing about politically correct terminology. 

In some cases, the actual subject of the argument might not be as important as the act of arguing and that might be a man trait thing which lends itself readily to discussion forums.

An article some may find interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/jun/26/i-was-one-of-those-men...

Hmmmmm. Let me think for a nanosecond.........

Ps. Great article 

Yes, apologies for my part in derailing the thread. I really loved this article and would love to see more like it and on connected themes.

Surely the beauty of a forum is that you can't talk over people like in real life.

Yeah apologies on my part too.  Quite embarrassed that I allow myself to get involved these tit for tat arguments.

I'll make an effort to not do so on other threads in the future.

Better things to do ... 

Back on topic, I thought the article was well worth reading.

I can definitely relate to the inspirational point - I'd not noticed it was connected to my age but there's been a distinct uptick in women telling me I'm inspirational during my warm up since I hit my 40s. I find a bit insulting as it's pretty obvious they wouldn't be saying that to a man or a younger woman, but at the same time I'm conscious that there aren't loads of slightly pudgy 43 year old women cranking up steep walls at my local so I try to take it in the spirit it's intended. 

That said, there was a lot of the article that seemed less about being an "old woman" so much as being a mum. I'm not a parent so I'm always treated as an independent climber. And I've always been a total tomboy so I don't feel any social pressure not to get dirty or bruised or to avoid risks.

I'm loitering at the cusp of that hormonal timebomb at the moment. Feels like I spend a lot of time googling whether this or that is a menopause symptom! I'm not averse to HRT, just not sure when is the right time to start.

Speaking from a 78 year old viewpoint 50 is not old. It is middle-aged. It is nice to hear from a middle-aged woman but, personally I'd love to hear from a 70+ year-old woman about how she finds rock climbing? How does she find recovery time? Is strength training effective? Has her suppleness and agility changed? Has her mental attitude changed? Does she find other climbers at the wall welcoming?