UKC

Just listening to the radio, and there was an article about Skin Cancer, and I thought about the current wild camping campaign and thought maybe it would be more useful to inform more about skin cancer. I know I know, overthinking here.

I googled "british+mountaineering+council skin+cancer -ai" and the top result was The BMC selling a CAC skin cancer T shirt.

I then went to the BMC main site and used the search “skin+cancer” with one result about an Alpine information thing https://www.thebmc.co.uk/en/search?q=skin%2Bcancer

One of my climbing partners always makes a point of using sun protection, however I have never particularly noticed any others doing so, though they do seem to use sun cream to varying levels.

Also I was chatting with a bloke in a hut recently who was a health and safety person in construction and he mentioned about as well as hard hats, hi viz etc how telling the workers or even possibly providing sun cream was a thing.

So to finish, no criticism of the BMC, just wondered if people think it would be a good thing if the BMC had a skin cancer awareness campaign.

In reply to Godwin:

That's a very good idea for an article at least. Agreed restrictions on UV access for good reasons, skin conservation and hopefully a more sustainable life.

In reply to Godwin:

Given the membership profile advice about prostate cancer would probably more effective!

In reply to Godwin: Mountaineering Scotland have this https://www.mountaineering.scot/news/sunguarding-sport-in-the-hills#:~:text....

In reply to DaveHK: Sadly age seems to be a big factor in skin cancer incidence though, presumably, the damage is done from much younger ages. I think back with horror at some of the days when I didn’t slather on sunscreen.

In reply to Godwin:

It was definitely discussed as part of my Jonathan Conville Trust supported alpine mountaineering course, albeit the depth was "lots more UV at altitude, you need suitable sunglasses and want to use factor 50 sun cream when up high, snow blindness and skin cancer aren't fun". I haven't consciously bought anything less than Factor 50 since then and slather it on from mid spring until the end of September when I go to the hills or go swimming outdoors (unless it's wet).

Given Dom's involvement with CAC I would imagine that he'd be supportive of an article discussing the hazard and measures to address it, it wouldn't need discussion at council to be given the go ahead, but I think the idea would find support if it did require discussion. The voluntary resource to do it would be different to those involved in the current wild camping campaign so both pieces of work could run in parallel. Something larger could be done if the membership wanted it, however this would take staff and volunteer time from elsewhere to run.

RE: Construction and Skin Cancer/ UV exposure, the HSE has various bits and pieces (some of which can probably be used to help draft something relevant or be linked as supporting info):

https://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/healthrisks/cancer-and-construction/ski...

https://www.hse.gov.uk/skin/sunprotect.htm

https://www.sunsafeworkplaces.co.uk/

I'm not involved in outdoor instruction work so I don't know how much stuff like this which is targeted at construction and farm work etc makes it into the outdoor instruction sector, particularly given that the latter has a lot of one man bands and small businesses who don't necessarily have the capacity to proactively keep up with changes in regulations and health and safety advice etc.

They also reference the UK Skin Cancer Charity who might be willing/ able to provide additional publicity depending on what is created.

In reply to Godwin:

No.

It isn't their job, it isn't their area of expertise, it isn't ultimately anything to do with them.  But should they make a note of the risks and link to others that can provide informed advice?

Yes.

T.

In reply to Tony Buckley:

Resources already exist (see the second link) and aside from a useful article it could easily be used as additional information for the superb BMC mountain medicine weekends.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/en/mountain-medicine-weekend

https://www.skincancer.org/blog/high-altitude-high-risk-part-1/

In reply to Godwin:

Very timely shout out as climbers are highly susceptible - we just ran an article about skin cancer as a part of Melanoma Awareness Month, with specific advice for climbers:

https://climbersagainstcancer.org/melanoma-may-awareness-month/

Throughout May, June and July we're collaborating with Melanoma UK and profits from every black (the Melanoma Awareness Colour) item sold from the CAC Shop during that time will go directly to MUK.

https://climbersagainstcancer.org/shop

We've also just teamed up with Dussl for a £10-off special offer to CAC supporters with a further £5 going straight to the charity.

https://climbersagainstcancer.org/shop/dussl-daily-protection-moisturiser-s...

Stay safe everyone! Cheers, Dom 

In reply to spenser:

Thanks Spenser - replied below with my CAC hat on (very effective at blocking UV!) and I will also pass on the suggestion to the Summit team  

Cheers, Dom

https://climbersagainstcancer.org/shop/vintage-style-baseball-cap/

In reply to dominic o:

No worries Dom!

In reply to dominic o:

Baseball caps are a bad hat to suggest in this context: they provide no protection for the neck and ears.

After American ranchers swapped their Stetsons for baseball caps, there was a noticeable increase in skin cancer rates. Nowadays, there are campaigns encouraging ranchers to ditch the baseball caps, and go back to hats with a full brim.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

I've got a good friend who is an oncologist. She was always pretty hard line on the sunscreen. Back in the days when I smoked she would regularly tell me that it would make my willy fall off. I'm not sure that's exactly how it works but it did give me pause for thought. 

In reply to abcdefg:

Fair point - we'll check out the possibility of adding a regular sun hat to the range (though maybe not a stetson!) We're also investigating a long sleeve sun-hoodie. Watch this space. 

In reply to Tony Buckley:

I would say one of the BMCs jobs is to facilitate and encourage people to get out into the hills and enjoy them in a safe way, and making people are aware of the risks posed by UV radiation could be part of this.

An article in Summit and UKC and a few flyers on the subject, is not going to break the bank.

In reply to spenser:

Thanks for a thoughtful and considered reply.

Offwidth, yes an article would be good.

Dom, I knew John, keep up the good work.

All the dislikers, kiss my …….

In reply to Godwin:

Whether for the BMC or not (but an article here maybe?), this has rather sheepishly reminded me of some of the horrific sunburn I've got belaying in a sports bra over the years. It's always that one first climb where you remember just after your mate's set off and the sun comes round during that climb and you're stuck there, frying... 

Can't say this member is too concerned about her prostate.

In reply to Godwin:

Different outdoor professions have different risks - a cross-sectional study comparing non-melanoma skin cancer risk among farmers, gardeners and mountain guides

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29806193/

NMSC incl. actinic keratosis was diagnosed in 33.3% of mountain guides, 27.4% of farmers, 19.5% of gardeners and in 5.6% of indoor workers. Significant differences were seen between the outdoor professions with mountain guides at highest risk compared to farmers.

————

So while most climbers are out as much as guides (though some are probably more) the high incidence is enough to make you think.

I bumped into two Aussies last spring sea kayaking off Ardnamurchan, they had wide brimmed hats, neck covers, gloves, one had a face cover, the other tape/paste over cheek bones and nose, as well as factor 50.  Plus sunnies.  Put our baseball caps and a bit of factor fifty into the ‘not taking UV seriously’ category.

In reply to Climbers Against Cancer:

Possibly worth a look at a legionnaire's hat type of thing?

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/sports/camping/expedition-clothing?pdt-highligh...

Although it's probably best that no-one takes advice from me on the subject of avoiding sunburn from me (last minute decision to wear the vest, after I'd put on sun cream, yes, it was unpleasant)!

In reply to spenser: re the Health and Safety advice it’s obviously sinking in. Stepped out the door this morning to see two roofers working opposite us. The young lad was rubbing sunscreen into the back of the older roofer🤣

In reply to Neil Morrison:

But I bet HSE adherence didn’t go as far as stopping them decking if they slipped. Yours using a time served local roofer whom is no longer bilaterally symmetrical, due to a couple of decks in his career. 

hmm …climbers deck in the pursuit of fun but not remuneration, roofers deck during the daily drudge and in the pursuit of money…….whom is more misguided ???

In reply to Neil Morrison:

Everything changes, and everything stays the same. That is reminiscent of Miners cleaning each other's backs in the Pit showers.

In reply to Godwin:

I thought of exactly the same thing.

In reply to spenser:

I’ve been wearing caps with neck flaps that also give some side coverage for over a quarter of a century.   All SPF 50+ treated fabric.   Probably because I’m blonde and fair skinned and needed to protect myself from burning at young age (t shirt worn when swimming in sea etc).

In reply to Godwin:

Hi Godwin 

Just closing the loop on this, I've been in touch with the Summit editorial team and can confirm we will be publishing some advice and raising awareness across our channels. 

Slip/Slap/Slop and Stay safe out there! 

Cheers, Dom 

In reply to Dominic Oughton - BMC President:

Good effort 👌 

In reply to Godwin:

Maybe we also need to consider a skin exposure campaign to ensure we improve our Vitamin D levels, as well as ensure the release of skin reservoirs of Nitric oxide, which should help to keep blood pressure low, and probably is part (alongside diet) for better Mediterranean lifespan.

It's complicated.

In reply to Dominic Oughton - BMC President:

For the record, it's actually 'Slip, Slop, Slap.' But you don't have have to take my word for that; here's Sid the Seagull to tell you all about it:

https://youtu.be/b7nocIenCYg?si=HtS7aWI-PbaKHv3V

I find suncream to be a bit unreliable when climbing as I sweat a lot so I wear a long sleeved top with a hood made from polyester which is a good UV absorber (cotton and nylon don't do much). You can get UPF (fabric equivalent of UV) 50 clothes from Decathlon cheaply enough.

Also if I was going to climb at high altitudes or in Morocco etc. I might wear 2 of them then it's UPF 2,500 because if 2% gets through 1 top then 2% of 2% makes it through 2 tops. 

In reply to KP_3030:

I've always been a bit confused by special UV-protective clothes. Or rather by the implication that other fabrics don't give much protection. I've never seen even the slightest hint of a colour change to skin that's covered by any standard clothing. Why is my torso so pasty white and never sunburnt if the average t-shirt is letting through loads of UV?

In reply to Luke90:

I agree, cotton is technically bad at UV absorption and it's perfectly realistic for something to be opaque to visible light and transparent to UV. I have got sunburn through cotton sleeves but not through the body. My theory is that the body of a tshirt is loose so even though it's a bad absorber there it's thick enough to be OK, and the sleeves are stretched out a bit while climbing so the UV gets through. I'm not really bothered though as the UPF hoodies aren't expensive so I might as well. 

In reply to Godwin:

No. It is not the business of the BMC to promote individual  health issues. None of their business anymore than they should promote helmet use. 

In reply to Luke90:

I wondered about this. The other day I bought a lightweight fluorescent jacket for wind protection more than anything, that also claims to be DWP, all good but then I wondered does it protect against UV, as I hope this will be more a factor than rain on my forthcoming tour.

A quick google brought up loads of people trying to sell UV SPF clothing, however a quick look here https://www.skincancer.org/skin-cancer-prevention/sun-protection/sun-protec... revealed this

"What makes clothing sun safe?

Yes, your clothing shields you from the sun, but not all fabrics and colors provide equal protection. Luckily, you have plenty of options. When shopping for apparel that can effectively shield you from harmful rays, keep these factors in mind:

Color: Dark or bright colors keep UV rays from reaching your skin by absorbing them rather than allowing them to penetrate. That’s why these colors offer better protection than lighter shades.

Construction: Densely woven cloth, like denim, canvas, wool or synthetic fibers, are more protective than sheer, thin or loosely woven cloth. Check a fabric’s sun safety by holding it up to the light. If you can see through, UV radiation can easily penetrate the fabric and reach your skin.

Content: The composition of your fabric really matters. Unbleached cotton contains natural lignins that act as UV absorbers. Shiny polyesters and even lightweight satiny silks can be highly protective because they reflect radiation. High-tech fabrics treated with chemical UV absorbers or dyes prevent some penetration from UV rays.

Fit: Loose-fitting apparel is preferable. Tight clothing can stretch and reduce the level of protection offered, as the fibers pull away from each other and allow more UV light to pass through.

UPF: Some clothing makers provide UPF labels, which indicate exactly how much of the sun’s rays the garment can shield. Look for our Seal of Recommendation whenever you shop.

Coverage: The more skin your outfit covers, the better your protection. Whenever possible, choose long-sleeved shirts and long pants or skirts.

Activity: Regardless of UPF, if your clothing gets stretched or wet, it will lose some of its protective ability and become more transparent, exposing your skin to more UV light.”
 

I am guessing my synthetic, DWP coated bright flourescent yellow jacket will give good sun protection, but when the sun comes out next week, I shall hold it up to the sun*

*Wait for OP,  HELP blinded by sun light coming through jacket fabric.
 

In reply to Dominic Oughton - BMC President:

Could you also mention the importance (especially when deep water soloing or off-grid and washing in rivers) of choosing brands that are rreef/marine safe?

In reply to Jenny C:

Just stay in the shade as much as possible.

In reply to Godwin:

Would this be as contentious if they put out warnings about the dangers of alcohol I wonder.  What about if doctors suddenly started warning about the dangers of climbing?

I find it all a little infantalising and unnecessary for me personally but lets be realistic there really are some numpties out there.

In reply to Godwin:

I’m a fan of the sun hoody. It helps to protect from midges too, I discovered recently.

https://www.mountain-equipment.com/products/glace-hooded-mens-top?srsltid=A...

In reply to GCO:

There's also a cheaper version on Decathlon, this is what I use:

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/fishing-anti-uv-t-shirt-500-with-hood-blue/_/...

In reply to Godwin:

Not sure if I should be posting this with my BMC or CAC hat on (both high SPF and providing neck and ear coverage of course!) There's now an article on the BMC website, developed in collaboration between the two:

https://thebmc.co.uk/en/melanoma-awareness-why-every-climber-hill-walker-an...

Cheers, Dom 

In reply to Dominic Oughton - BMC President:

Thanks Dom, but pedants alert - melanoma is the least common form of skin cancer. Basal cell carcinoma and squamous cell carcinoma are more common, tho usually less aggressive. All have sun exposure as a risk factor, and all have unpleasant treatments to a greater or lesser extent, so worth following the advice you've stated.

In reply to Dominic Oughton - BMC President:

Bravo 👏 

In reply to abcdefg:

For keeping the sun off your neck, I would recommend to anyone one of the long sleeve "sun hoodies" that many brands now have on sale in the UK. Also great as a base layer!

Although there is a disappointing lack of women’s options available in the UK (even from UK based brands that sell them in the US / Canada such as Rab)