UKC

Afternoon all,

I'm seeking route recommendations in and around the Chamonix valley for classic alpine routes (single axe, not mixed climbing) at PD or above standard that reach a summit.

This is to tick as many pre-requisites of the BMG training scheme as reasonably possible in a short trip. I'll be in the Chamonix valley in September and would like to reach 1 summit per day over a week, making decent headway into this section of the application.

My understanding, based on conversations I have had with other interested folks and aspirant guides, is that any summit accessed via a route with an alpine grade of PD or above counts. Route length and summit height are less important. Use of lifts is allowed within reason, for example a summit of Mont Blanc via Trois Monts Route (PD+) from the midi.

For anyone else interested in this sort of thing, I have made a UKC tick list for this section of the application and will populate it when I receive suggestions. I also plan to make one for each of the other sections and will come back and add the links as and when they get set up:

50 x E1 5b multi pitch rock routes (UK)

30 x Grade III winter routes (Scotland)

20 x Grade V winter routes (Scotland)

10 x WI 3 ice routes (Europe)

20 x PD alpine summits (Europe) - https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/ticklists/british_mountain_guides_ifmga_...

10 x alpine mixed routes (Europe)

5 x alpine mixed routes TD or above (Europe)

5 x alpine mixed routes TD or above and at least 800m in length (Europe)

Hi Connor. 

Isn't there a skiing element to the scheme including off-piste and Ski Mountaineering?

Sav

I'd just get out and climb, climb what appeals, follow the weather and conditions, try to not repeat stuff. A logbook for any qualification will fill itself if your actively operating at that level. 

Note. Ticking PDs off the chamonix phrique then back down in the valley for lunch, offer much less experience and look less good on paper than walking from the valley, going from hut to hut etc.... it's the whole mountain experience, not route ticking which counts. Spread your experience across the whole of the alpine region. 

Extra Note. I don't think anyone passes who isn't comfortable doing at least 1 or 2 grades over the 'minimum' prerequisites.

Just get out and have fun climbing. 

The Guies committee will also want to see a broader range of experince than purley Cham, so dont forgot, Arolla, Saas  Fee, Zermatt, and Zinal.

IMo there are also much better PD/AD routes in Switzerland..

JC

Hey Connor,

PM me and I'll try and point you in the right direction. Or better, email Neil, the BMG's technical director - [email protected]

I'd point out that all the prerequisites are minimums in both in terms of grade and quantity.  

I'd focus on doing more involved alpine routes in more remote parts of the Alps. Things in the AD to TD range that go to a major summit, and have a complex descent. 

For example:

South Ridge of Dent Blanche

Arbengrat on Obergable Horn

Mittleggi Ridge on the Eiger

North Ridge of Piz Badile

South Ridge or West Face of Aiguille Noire du Peutery

Traverse of the Grandes Jorassess

Traverse of Lyskamn

Full Traverse of the Breithorn

Good luck. It's a great career. 

Yes, but my original post only highlighted the climbing portion as I’ll be putting together tick lists for these sections which I can’t do for the skiing on UKC unfortunately. 
 

I’m 90% there on the ski stuff anyway, so it’s less of a concern for me. 

Appreciate on paper that midi served PD summits don’t have the same level of involvement or judgement as a valley to summit attempt, but I’m treating this section of the application as the low hanging fruit if you will, to tick off a few of the prerequisites in a short amount of time. 
 

The requirements also cover 5 x 800m TD or above ‘grand courses’ which will give me ample opportunity to show I’m climbing at the standard required. 
 

I think due to the depth and breadth of the BMG scheme, a focused approach is needed, simply climbing won’t get me where I need to be in time. 
 

Appreciate your advice though. 

Agree, but I’m on a work trip to Martigny in September and already have a friend in Chamonix hence my request for recommendations here. I plan to explore other areas in time. 

Thanks for the advice Tom. My climbing partner for this trip does not want to get involved in any mixed climbing and is more comfortable on ridges and snow plods, so I was looking at suggestions that mean we get to climb together whilst also getting some application ticks. 

I’ll be returning to the alps, to Chamonix and elsewhere, in the future and will sink some time into the more committing mixed lines and TD grand courses. 
 

Thanks for the route list, I’m sure it’ll come in very helpful in the future. 

Hi Connor.

That is great about the ski stuff.

Good luck and all the best.

Sav

If it has to be chamonix then Dômes de Miage Traverse (NE to SW) (PD) is pretty good and not some shit route straight off the cable car. 

Pointe Isabella is another very good snow route but it does have a short section of easy rock/mixed

Most PD summits around chamonix aren't just snow plods tbh

Hello Tom,

Couple of questions about the scheme that I've been wondering about after talking to guide mates and aspirants.

Why is it so much harder than other countries schemes? Whats the justification, regarding the qualification in the end is the same for all. Some schemes require 10 WI4s and mulitpitches with 10 pitches for example. 

How easy is it for guides and aspirants to get work authorisation in France, Italy,  etc these days with Brexit? In the end poor sods could work their balls off for decades just to be told "non". Will guides working insurance be valid if one doesn't have working authorisation in a country?

Are the requirements logical for largely alpine based guides? Why do often alpine based guides need such a high UK and Scottish winter standard. I heard one say "its good practice for the alps" but most euro guides manage without having set foot in the UK. Brits lucky enough to have a euro residence permit now risk losing it for being out of the UK for extended periods. I've known several who have done plenty of grandes voies or been alpine based for years that have had to leave the Alps to go spend several winters in Scotland (wasn't this year's Scottish winter exam delayed due to conditions as it was scheduled for March?) only to go straight back to the Alps for work. 

Last one. With any new potential non resident aspirants only having 90 days a year to achieve the euro requirements have they considered a typical time frame to achieve the prerequisites? Especially given the drastic change in alpine conditions the past decades making "grandes voies" conditions more fickle for example.

Cheers

PD trips cf. Camp2camp:

Petit Aig. Verte
Grande Lui, Grand Darrey
Tour Noir 
Aig. du Tour
Petit Fourche
Aig. du Toule
Aig. Marbrees
...

Take care, lots of PD+ require optimum conditions that nowadays have become rare.
E.g. Pointe Isabelle is reported to have tricky crevasse situation.
Mont Dolent normal route slope is often icy and than much harder than PD.
etc.

https://ifmga.net/professional-mountain-guide/training-and-assessment

In theory it should be the same across countries. The keyword I'd take from literally every line is 'minimum' in terms of length, grade and number of. 

Summer Mountaineering

• general mountaineering, snow and ice: a minimum of 15 routes of which five must be of difficulty D+ and with a vertical height gain of at least 800 metres
• rock: a minimum of 15 routes with a vertical height gain of at least 300 metres (or at least 15 pitches), of minimum difficulty 5c  (VI / UIAA) . The routes have to be belayed by oneself and should therefore not be equipped with bolts.
• the ascent and descent for these routes must have taken place on mountainous terrain and/or on glaciers
• in descent, only a small number of the 30 routes can be carried out using fixed and established rappel stations, most descents should be by a route other than that of the ascent and must be in terrain, alpine in character
• routes that appear twice in the route report will be counted only once

Technical Climbs .....     

• multi-pitch rock routes, grade 6a (VI+) minimum
• several pitches on steep ice, grade 4 (WI) minimum

Well no it says theyre the entry requirements. They are enough as further training will be provided. 

"3.3 Any experienced mountaineer who complies with the requirements of the IFMGA standard can start the training to become a qualified IFMGA Mountain Guide. Training, assessment and certification are organised by the responsible institution in a Member Association, or may also take place through the IFMGA in especially organised multinational training."

Hey Connor. Cool that you’re going for it. I think what Tom Ripley said is pretty bang on.

Speaking as a jaded would-be here, so apologies in advance for the chip on my shoulder. But I doubt the BMG would be impressed with any admission that you’re going for low hanging fruit. 

Having spent eight years and three winters in Scotland on this little quest, I spoke with the current tech director recently to see where I was at with an application. I was told to do more, and that “thick logbooks generally lead to successful outcomes.”

I get the sense that they’re not interested in people who have got plenty of experience doing day hits up the midi, or low-commitment lift-accessed routes. As I understand it, they would rather see big, committing AD / D grade routes for your major summit section. Täsch-Dom traverse, Sudgrat on the Salbit, Dent Blanche south ridge, Lenspitze Nadelhorn traverse, Mittellegi on the Eiger etc etc etc etc etc etc…

800m+ TDs that are rock routes don’t count as part of your big 5 routes, like the Cassin on the Piz Badile or the South Ridge of the Peuterey (speaking from recent experience). They have to be mixed: snow and ice climbs. With heatwaves every summer these days, you’re probably going to have to climb these in spring, autumn or winter.
 

Your other TD routes need to be to an actual summit, with a proper mountaineering descent. I had 16 TD routes on my application recently (not including the 800m section) and was told that 15 of them don’t count because they’ve got an abseil descent or are day-hits (examples: Rebuffat on Aiguille du Midi SF; German Gully on Mont Blanc du Tacul, Profit-Perroux on Aiguille du Midi, Contamine on Pointe Lachenal, Pas D’Agonie on the Gros Rognon, Fil à Plomb on the Col du Plan). You need to be going big with these or you will be told they aren’t what they’re looking for.

In hindsight, I wish I had realised all of this a few years ago, as it would have saved me untold amounts of time and stress. If I could give some advice to myself eight years ago, it would be to shop around for other guides’ associations before committing to the Brits. But also to ask yourself as honestly as you can, whether you love climbing and mountains more than anything else in your life, and whether you think there’s a chance that this might change as you get older and your priorities change. Because if you’re not a beast who’s comfortably above the standard, it will erode many, many other parts of life while you try and bring yourself up to the ‘minimums’.

Good luck, and of course, don’t you listen to those nay-sayers.

I had to shadow some French guides several years ago.  I won't go into the boring details but they were superbly fit and skied like demons but their rock climbing ability seemed to be about VS.  Make of that what you will

Great. What goods climbing e4 for a walk up the mont blanc tho?

Entry requirements, yes, but at the given grade in any of the activities you are expected to be very comfortable, not at risk of fall off testing your clients belaying ability. This is obviously at assessment, not beginning training, but much like the uk's mountain instructor schemes when it says list X number of routes for whatever class you should be picking your best examples from a much larger field of experience. 

French requirements to enter their training programme are explained here

https://www.ensm.sports.gouv.fr/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Liste-de-courses... (in French)

Interesting to see it includes some aid climbing

Because the next day a client might have their eye on a route up the Pyramid? Or ticking off Rebuffat lines?

The french love a ski test! 

Realistically the brunt of work is mont blanc, grand paradiso and similar tho isnt it?

I bet there are several climbing rock on the Aiguilles right now, on the Moine, south face of midi, geant, rochefort, tour ronde, maybe on the Verte(moine ridge), Etc etc and that's just in that very small area of the Alps. 

Extra.....

that's a very uk centric view, it's different elsewhere. A person from France on holiday with the family might pay for a day or two rock climbing with a guide between family stuff, they likely did MB 20 years ago and just want a low stress day on good rock in the mountains, something challenging but not an all out slog on porridge like snow. 

Geant most popular is AD+ 4C and has fixed ropes. Rochefort is a ridge walk. Tour ronde most common is also a AD ridge or D3 north face when in nick. Aiguille vert is a very serious undertaking which is still more mountaineering and the moine ridge is AD+ 2. 

Do you need to be an E2 climber for these? 

Of course there will be rock climbing work but in the alps its most likely to be mountaineering, MB, Swiss peaks and winter skiing. Is that controversial?

No its from discussing with guide mates their planned work for the summer. 

This one always strikes me as a bit odd. I'd imagine if you've done all the rest of it you could tick off the 10x WI3 routes in a solo day. Guess I'm surprised it's not WI4 or higher.

My understanding for the differences is when you look at the courses as a whole.

The BMG scheme has a higher entry level. Because once you have joined it is more short courses and assessments, mentoring, and ticking things off yourself. A bit like most UK awards. The French have a lower entry requirement. But then they treat it more like a college course, with more input and time in ENSA. This is like most French awards.

Even saying that, each guide scheme is a little different, they focus more on certain things. I know a few guys who have shopped around to find a scheme that gives them the best chance.  

Hey,

I don’t think our scheme is particularly harder, we just start with more experienced mountaineers than the French/Swiss do. Also we don’t have a competitive entry test to whittle down 300 applicants to 30. I’d also expect most recently qualified guides to of a roughly similar level of competence. 

I also don’t think the technical standards are particularly high either, and they haven’t really changed for a long time. Being able to Guide E1, Scottish V, and ski like a skier seem like good minimums for a professional. 
 

From a personal point of view, I think it is a good idea to have a reasonable amount of technical capacity in reserve, as you can’t exactly rely on your clients to take over. Or the weather might come in, or the route might be verglassed. 
 

I guided the Geant when it was covered in Verglas once. We wore crampons the whole time and it felt pretty sporting. I was equally glad that it was neither at my limit or any harder.

Hello Tom, cheers for the response. 

Aye I understand that its good to have in reserve once qualified and guiding but its more about trying to understand the justification behind the extra prerequisites. 

Other countries have a lower entry but more emphasis on education and training it seems. From discussing with a Norwegian guide friend they also have a lower entry but have more emphasis on the training and education.

How is it looking for newly qualified non-EU residents to be allowed to work in France and Italy these days?

I struggle to believe that. As to start French guide training you need to climb Arve Valley 6c+… which in my, somewhat limited, experience is far from easy. 

It’s fairly straightforward, but slightly long winded to get your qualification recognised by the relevant authority in each country. With this you can apply for a self employed work visa. 

I’m fairly certain we ask for 10 WI4s. 

People don't want a guide scraping up routes, they should be cruising them effortlessly. Plus if it's your day job and it's the top tier mountain qualification, the grades aren't that hard relatively speaking. On a uk level it's 2 grades harder than mountain instructor.

Note. The better route up the Geant is up the side, not the gym ropes.  

Hi Tom,

This is a bit tangential to the OP but, out of interest, what percentage of guides are married with children?  It was a career I considered pursuing about 20 years ago and decided that although I'd love the lifestyle it probably wouldn't have allowed me to have a family and interact with them the way I would want to.  I'm a geography teacher now and mostly very happy with my life decisions but I've always wondered how things might have worked out differently had I followed another path.

Thanks

SSB

Well, I can assure you that I am not lying but this was back in the 80's/90's so perhaps things have changed.

Some good advice on this thread. Worth listening to those who've been through it and succeeded (Tom) and those who have started it , still doing it or stopped, for whatever reason.

Slightly off topic but I am surprised that people think the BMG pre requisites are too hard, to meet them you have to be a very good well rounded climber but it's not sponsored hero territory. I realise there is quite a time commitment to tick everything off but if you are as passionate about climbing and the mountains as I would like any guide I hired to be, surely that's not an issue?

From both the guides and clients perspective, the guide needs to working well within their comfort zone. Any less than E1/Scottish V, something a punter like me is capable of (on a good day/fair wind etc) would seem too low to me.

The point was more what is the reasoning for the higher prerequisites considering the IFMGA and other schemes require lower. 

As adequately described above, the BMG system expects your personal level good enough at the start, and the training system to teach you to guide (via some training but mainly mentoring as I understand it). You are guiding under supervision as an aspirant pretty much from day one so you need to have an appropriate level to apply.

Other systems have more scope to improve your individual level during the training as you spend most of your time at the start doing courses etc. with no/less time actually guiding early on.

They are different systems and people are welcome to chose a different one to the BMG way if they would like. The French pre-requisites may seem lower (I don't know if they actually are) but it's pretty competitive to get into ENSA so I would be surprised if anyone thought that was the easy way in!

(According to a friend who was the Director of the Guide Education programme at ENSA, he implemented quite a few BMG practices into their training/programme as he thought he BMG mentoring system was producing better guides (not in individual climbing ability, but in their ability and experience with managing clients)

I'm getting the impression mrbird's query is more about the quantity of routes. I suppose you could apply the same selective logging as BMG currently do to the prereqs to a smaller proportion of routes and still get a feel for a candidates abilities. As another would've if I could've who's ended up at a late stage going done the MCI road after an 18 year break, I looked at doing it through Trentino guides, the prereq's were substantially more straightforward and achievable than BMG's road. I guess the thing is you're reducing the number of applicants just by having those number as they are and removing stuff like the ENSA speed test (which IMO is an awful way of working out if someone would be a good guide). 

What I still haven't quite got my head around (and which maybe Tom can throw some light on) is why on earth MCI and WMCI aren't on the roadmap to BMG, much like the US system. The AMGA qualifies at Rock Guide (more or less an direct equivalent of MCI), Ice guide (more or less WMCI), Ski Guide (sort of pretty much International Mountain Safety through BASI)  and Alpine guide. Once qualified you operate within your remit but the sum of the qualifications eventually earns you IFMGA at the end of it. Bearing in mind that having talked to aspirants who have said that the MCI assessment is basically the summer rock test for BMG, and I'd imagine the same applies for WMCI, why would this not be the way to operate? It means that instructors are earning both financially and more importantly building their repertoire of client handling skills. To move on to the next level, you'd have to prove your personal climbing skills were at the required standard, but surely that would be a pretty simple thing to achieve? It seems utterly mad to me that you can go through the whole of MCI, and WMCI and then arrive at the end of it and still have to go through the whole of BMG to get to the end goal. Or you can jump on the BMG guide with zero experience and not bother with the MCI route but have no client skills. Considering all the way through training you have it drummed into you that learning should progressive and achievable, the current system doesn't seem to be what they are preaching...  

The website states 10 WI4's, the application form 10 WI3's. In any case, this isn't the section of the application I'm concerned with.

Even an old giff like me can do WI 4 - I'd assume the WI3 is a typo...

Agree, it seems baffling. There's a whole progression system via the various mountain training awards and then as you say........ the BMG system starts from scratch!

I believe you can get exemption from some aspects of the uk based summer and winter BMG training if you passed the respective instructor courses. Obviously assessments are still necessary, as the climbing grade is higher.

It's only 4 days I think in the very first part of the training year, most people do it anyway.

Two different organisations both interested in making as much money as possible...

(Or that's my slightly cynical take on it)

You say that but the technical aspects of the exam are the same, all apart from the personal climbing. It would seem logical to me that if you have passed the grade at MCI that you should handle the technical aspects of the summer exam just fine and that you should be able to take out the personal climbing aspect and save that for a later date. If you think about it, it would mean that you would hone your personal abilities as you climb more due to working in the field. 

Mountain training administer both schemes though?

This is slightly beyond my pay grade, and I don't hold MCI or WMCI. 

Whilst the BMG and Mountain Training share administrative capacity, they are totally separate organisations. 

In my view, they are very different qualifications too. For a MCI/WMCI teaching climbing, rather than guiding it, is the primary focus.  

I would also say that starting Guide training as either a MCI or WMCI puts you at a substantial advantage. As you are on a much shallower learning curve, at least to begin with. A MCI/WMCI who is training to be a Guide should be getting their working practice critiqued and improved, rather than trying to learn how to look after people from scratch.

Also, when working in the outdoors, opportunities to have one's working practice critiqued by an outsider are few and far between. And it is great to see how other people do things. 

However you'd probably be better asking recently qualified Guides, who also hold MCI/WMCI how they found the process. 

If only, I don't think anyone makes any money out of the training of Mountain Guides or Mountaineering Instructors. 

Guides courses are generally charged out at the costs of the trainer's time time and expenses, divided by the number of candidates, plus a small margin to cover administration.

And MCI/WMCI are subsidised (or at least PYB/The Lodge love to remind you they are).

It was the case 20 plus years ago that in the national centres the higher governing body courses we slightly subsidised by other centre activities. The staff ratio on mountain instructor courses makes them quite expensive to run, nearly every day is 1:2. 

I'm not sure on percentages, but the vast majority of guides are married or in long term relationships, many with children. I think it's a career that's far more compatible with a stable family life than you might think. Depending on where you live, there's lots of opportunities to do 'day' work where you're home for children's bed time, and whilst short trips away from home are sometimes necesary I'm sure that's true in many jobs.  

If you were going to design a national training scheme from scratch, then having an integrated system like the AMGA would indeed make sense in my opinion, but getting there from where we are today would be very tricky.

Having not completed the MCI/WMCI but being aware of what's involved, whilst the same skills are examined by both schemes they're tested in different terrain, so it doesn't seem that doing your MCI then turning up and climbing an E1 is the same thing (which I know is not what you're suggesting...). On my BMG summer test my technicl rescue day took place on a traversing, in place slightly overhanging E2 at gogarth, and on the days where guiding a member of public was observed this took place on E1's and E2's. My point is, that to meet the IFMGA standard I think the MCI would need to be assessed on this type of ground, which might or might not be right for those who want to mostly teach climbing in the UK.

Why was that ?

To give a more accurate idea of what guiding involves for those interested in it as a career:

You have quite a lot of control over what types of work you do. I'm in my 7th summer season guiding in the alps and I've worked on Mont Blanc six times in total during that time, a few more on Gran Paradiso etc. but this isn't the bulk of what I do.

I do quite a bit of technical rock climbing at work, on the Chamonix granite and further afield. Lots of clients regularly climb at the wall, so seconding E1 or E2 on an encouraging toprope is no problem for them. Being able to quickly and efficiently lead lots of pitches at this standard is a neccesity.

A week or two each summer is teaching alpine skills to people who want to learn how to go climbing in the alps on their own. 

Quite a lot of time is speant guiding classic routes in the PD-AD grade range or occasianally a bit harder, doing whatever matches the clients abilities and desires along with the weather and conditions. Often in a week that will mix in some rock climbing. Guiding long mixed routes on 4000m peaks feels like the most committing work that I do, and whilst at a lower technical standard than the big routes needed for the application, the same skillset and occasional perseverance is definitely needed.

In the winter I predominantly work on skis, day tours around Chamonix in the early season and then a few weeks on hut to hut trips or outside of the alps towards the end.

I'll do a few days of ice or alpine gully guiding each winter. Clients can often second WI4 or a bit harder. Cascade ice climbing is a different skill to scottish winter climbing, which I think is why it's specifially required on the application.

In all, it's a varied job that doesn't have to involve the cliche'd endless laps of the same trade routes. 

Hello Will,

Cheers for the info. I have no interest in the scheme but after talking to guides and aspirants from the BMG and foreign schemes I was curious about the differences for what in the end is the same badge. Does a British IFMGA get paid more than a French IFMGA?

I was only trying to understand the difference in prerequisites which the best answer so far is "youre expected to guide under supervision straight away and its not course based like other schemes".

I was also interested in how the alpine guiding ties in now with brexit regs. Does a guide need to wait to be qualified before he applies then has to wait for a decision from France for example? The requirements will be more time consuming these days especially for those without a residence permit which could then be complicated by work regs. Is a guide insured to work there without a working permit?

I am Norway based so if I wanted to try their scheme their entry tests are 6+ in rock shoes then 5+ in boots. Then mulitpitches of 10 pitches. I can ask an aspirant friend to clarify exactly if needed. 

Just trying to understand the reasoning behind the BMG requirements compared to others. As well as understand how post Brexit brits can work in the Alps legally and be covered in case of an accident which should be made clear to applicants. Imagine putting in a decade of work to find out you can't work there? 

I think that all of the  different countries training schemes are different, but all in the end produce good, safe guides who should all be able to do the same job. No course should be harder than another to pass. I'm often working on routes alongside colleagues from different nations, and whilst we might do some things differently I'm usually impressed by their competence, professionalism, and counter to stereotypes friendliness. 

As others have said above, the British scheme has a longer prerequisit list, but slightly less contact time than some others during training.

Compare this with the French approach. They have a shorter appliction list, combined with a very hard to pass competitve entrance exam, and then a further list of routes to complete during the training phase. I think that on balance it's probably easier to join the British scheme than the French, as for ours you've just got to do quite a bit of climbing at a medium-good standard rather than outcompete lots of other strong french alpinists. 

I think a really large part of maybe what's missing from your understanding of the prereqs (and I'd say this is true for all the schemes I have come in contact with) is that they are just there to showcase your ability and that in all cases you will have done far more than that minimum. If ALL you've done is chase the ticks you will fail miserably as you just won't have the background to pass the exams.

I can speak to the trentino prereqs which when I was looking were:

10 multipitch alpine rock routes at a minimum of IV+, 5 at 250m and VI

10 alpine routes, 5 at 500m and D/IV

10 100m high WI4 cascade ice falls

10 BSA ski tours, 5 more than 1000mh

10 multipitch sport routes to 6a and 100m plus

The reality is that although that is on the face of it easier than BMG, you're going to have to collect a substantial amount of experience to gain that list, and will have completed hundreds of routes. So if the Trentino guides were to apply the same numbers, it's actually pretty likely that you'd be able to muster the same numbers simply because you'll be operating at that level anyway. Most likely well above the stated level. 

If you read the documents about MCI, it says most applicants who pass will have completed in excess of 100 MP VS routes. Everybody I met doing it was climbing VS really comfortably, so most likely climbing MP E1s, sometimes E2. So in some respects I think the numbers aspect is misleading. Its just simply the case that if you took a candidate from one area and compared to another, they're going to be able to get on a route together and climb it as a pair of peers. It's just that the regions have different ways of getting to the same point, and that they tailor the requirements to guiding in their home nation. Hence a big Scottish requirement in BMG, and evidence of sea cliff climbing etc to a high standard. But the UK still needs to adhere to the international standard, and I guess the reality for most UK climbers is that they will have to go and live in the Alps for a few seasons to collect the list. That's as it should be really as it's not our back yard, like it might be for a French candidate. 

With regards ease of work, it's not straight forward unless you have citizenship or at least residence. I'm going through IML currently and the red tape in Italy where I would like to work is mental, even for me with a German passport. I need to have the carnet I would receive recognised by the ministry of sport, who defer to the national college of guides to do so. So far so good. But then you also have to register with the college of guides for the region in which you wish to work, of which there are many. The requirements are mostly the same but some differ. So for example in South tirol you must be an EU resident, not just an EU citizen to register freely. I.e. if your fiscally resident in the UK, its a no go. There are work arounds but its just a pain, and it's been left murky on purpose I suspect so people just give up. But where there's a will there's a way... and of course where I want to operate is on the border of three regions so that will require 3 separate registrations annually. If you're not an EU citizen, there is zero chance of you working anywhere in Italy if your qualification was gain post brexit as its no longer recognised, they've left the UIAA at the moment and there's no recourse for getting it sorted.

That's all really useful perspective. I mean I'd imagine there must be a way of assessing those same skills at a slightly higher standard post MCI? Just seems like a cackhanded way to go about the whole thing, and less progressive than it could be.

CAI rejoined the UIAA in 2022.

In my view a Guides Test already does that. They require candidates to do similar skills to what would be expected on a MCI/WMCI, but to do them on harder terrain in a wilder place. 
 

For example Will did his rescue day on Atlantis True Moments Freebird, on a pretty wet and wild day. That isn’t the sort of terrain or standard a MCI assessment would be conducted on. 

Sure. So you have a level 1 and level 2 exam - would be a simple fix no? Thing is that gives you a feedback loop - i.e. rather than having one big day where you either pass or fail, you have an MCI day and then a BMG day. My point is more about having a qualification system which flows from one to the next. Like you say MCI's coming into the guides scheme seem to have an advantage in some respects so why not apply that?

Fair - maybe they've updated the website as when I looked last October it didn't show that.

I only know as I am on the UIAA Safety Commission, otherwise I would be merrily ignorant of the political machinations of the various federations......

Actually thinking about it it was because I was looking at the MQL system, which accredits equivalent schemes across member nations and Italy isn't on the map. I think it was because I was looking at whether there was any possibility of equivalence in Italy for the MCI in a reduced remit.

I’m personally not convinced about a modular system. Currently a British Mountain Guides is a Mountain Guide.

If we had BMG Rock Guides and BMG Winter Guides, I think it would devalue the brand and confuse the customer.

I think for a small island located very closely to the European Alps a stand alone qualification - that can be completed relatively quickly compared to other nations - works well. 

I get where you are coming from a practical point of view but from the brand point of view, the customer has NO idea the difference between a guide and an instructor and even less idea what PCI, MCI and WMCI mean!

I think the general public sees a MCI or WCMI as a "guide".

So don't brand it BMG? All I'm saying is why not incorporate the learning you gain as an MCI and WMCI into becoming a BMG? 

In terms of how quick the scheme is, from the point at which you decided to become a guide to the point at which you qualified, how long did it take you? I partly know the answer because I remember an email convo with you when you were a nipper... I personally wouldn't say it's a short process...

Relatively quickly compared to who?

According to IFMGA..

"3.7   Once the entry exam has been passed, the overall training, including all exams and the 14 days of Practical Learning with a mentor / supervisor, must be 94 days minimum and it has to be completed within 3 years minimum and 6 years maximum."

This year's aspirant winter test was delayed due to conditions. That's another year they have to wait then the lads will go back to cham and never set foot in aviemore again. 

With non-residents only allowed 90 days a year in Europe, how long is it expected to take now? In 5 years youve got 450 days max to do all your TDs, PDs, summits and skiing. Then conditions, bad seasons, etc. Don't forget routes often having a day extra at either side for approach and descent. 

Then once qualified (for France) you will have to get your French residence and carte professionelle to even start working.

I think it's tough for the public to understand the various remits. The more complex the system the harder it is, especially now when you can be an 'instructor', but only indoors etc.. however it does work within the industry and hopefully means those leading groups, kids etc are appropriately qualified. 

I think he meant the stand alone MCI/WMCI is "quick", not becoming a BMG which as, as it should be, a longer process.

(looking at his socials, Tom is having a whale of a time in NZ so I'm surprised he's even on UKC!?)

Totally, it is very confusing, Rock Climbing Instructor, Summer Guide and Winter Guide would be much easier, but BMG/IFMGA might be upset with those terms!

My point was more that keeping them separate (BMG and MCI/WMCI) isn't required for customer clarity, as Tom argued, as the customer has no idea even that two separate schemes exist anyway.

I will concede on his technical reasons for separation.

Hmm, I not sure I agree and I've spent 25 years marketing this stuff.

I spend a fair amount of effort trying to communicate the difference between being 'instructed' (taught skills) and being 'guided' (taken up routes). I think most people get it. 

So you spend a lot of time trying to explain what being instructed and guided means? Doesn't that imply the general public don't know, and unless they contact an outfit like yours, probably don't get it explained? Or do they ask about the qualifications the guide/instructor holds? I would imagine your clients are generally at the more informed end of the spectrum?

(I do bow to your actual experience by the way, my opinion is formed just through anecdote from discussing with non-climbing/beginner acquaintances who have looked to get instruction. In every case I can remember, they had "booked a guide" who was anything from an RCI to a WMCI. This extends to skiing too, lots of friends have "booked a guide" for off-piste skiing when its really an ISTD from the local ski school)

If your British, you get 180 days a year. 2 x 90, just with a bit of time in blighty between your 90s..........

Lots of good discussion in this thread! 

By September you might be limited on route choice by dry conditions - if you're in Martigny it's easy to go to Saas, Zermatt or Zinal if you can persuade your friend to travel. Getting to know other areas of the Alps (outside of Chamonix) will be a big help as you work towards becoming a guide. 

Although the French pre-requirements may seem easier, they also have an entry test which is essentially a competition. Meeting the pre-requirements might get you a place in the entry test but it's hard to pass and only happens once a year - I know people who have needed several goes. The BMG also has 3 test days but usually everyone will pass - you need to climb E1, grade 5 and ski, all of those in control and comfortably!

As a qualified guide you could work all Summer on Mont Blanc Courses and all Winter skiing the Vallée Blanche but not many guides do! I've been up MB once in 4 years and skied the VB twice last year. 

I'm surprised that the BMG Technical Standards aren't higher, especially for rock climbing. It was E1 and Grade 5 when I applied 22 years ago! 

oh, and I'm married with kids...

Other nations Guide training schemes. If you get through BMG training first time it takes just shy of 3 years. I think the French, Swiss, and Swedish schemes all take a minimum of 4. Also, it would be unusual, for someone to get all the way through the Mountain Training pathway (from ML training to MIC assessment) in 3 years 

I’m not sure about that. I’ve been to Aviemore in a professional context since qualifying, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. Talented Tim Miller lives nearby. 

I think you’re allowed to spend 90 out of every 180 days in the Europe. Which whilst far from ideal isn’t quite as dire as you’re making out. I also have friends who are currently training to be Guides, who applied for a 1 year tourist visa whilst completing their prerequisites.

You get a carte professionelle when you compete alpine training, and can use this to apply for a work visa. 

I hope this answers your questions. 

Never said dire im just emphasising the issues for potential applicants. Gone are the days of rocking up to cham and driving the Alpybus to allow you time to do everything like nearly every guide and aspirant I know. 

I've heard BMG staff say working in France is "a grey area" when it isnt. It's only fair to be clear to potential applicants what they'll need to do exactly to work in the future in said country. 

Yes the French scheme may be competitive but thats to be expected for the heart of the western Alps and a country with a massive culture of skiing and climbing. Is BMG snowed under with applicants? Several other schemes dont have the same numbers but have the same entry requirements so you can't always use the French as a comparison.

You have to factor in France is just a bit more special with anything involving snow, be it guide, ski instructor etc even their French language test for instructors. 

I don't understand people on this thread saying that the entry requirements are too difficult.

Alpine climbing is extremely dangerous. A professional organisation IMO has a great responsibility to ensure that people doing that job are not in unnecessary peril and that clients have their danger mitigated as much as possible. To me that requires a massive margin of safety in terms of climbing ability/experience.

My (decades ago, unguided) experience of Alpine climbing was that in bad conditions, routes can become very very much more difficult. All it takes is an unexpected storm to turn perfect conditions into appalling conditions whilst you are on the route. Add into that various things such as medical emergencies, accidents/whatever. A guide can't be someone who is feeling stretched doing the route in normal circumstances. 

Jesus, what's with the hyper fixation on grades and French scheme?   The question was why the entry requirements were different from the actual IFMGA requirements and how is it getting work in Europe once qualified. 

I think most countries’ scheme’s requirements are different to the IFMGA’s baseline requirement, and are skewed towards that particular nation’s mountains/guiding culture.

For example: here in New Zealand I understand that they spend hardly any time training or assessing ice climbing or winter climbing. However they do far more steep snow climbing than a British guide would do during their guide training.

The reasons the British training scheme has high prerequisites could be outlined as follows:

We have always (and by always I mean since our organisation was founded in 1975) taken, typically older, more experienced mountaineers and trained them to be Guides. This is in contrast to European schemes which typically took/take less experience, but able, younger climbers/skiers and trained them to be guides/mountaineers concurrently. 

Once you’re are on the scheme the BMG doesn’t require candidates to do further personal climbs. The French, for example, require their candidates to climb a Grand Course with a prof. 

The Brits don’t have a competitive entry test that candidates are required to pass before starting training. 

As mentioned above it is nowhere near as simple as it was pre Brexit, but there are workable solutions for most countries. 
 

I would also add that there is far more to being a Mountain Guide than Mont Blanc, the Matterhorn, and the Vallee Blanche - fine objectives that they all are. 

Are they actually that different? Vi+ seems pretty inclined with E1 to me...

I’ll add my perspective. When I applied,  I think I had about 100 multipitch routes in the E1-E5 range and several hundred single pitch in the same range. E1 was (is) fairly steady for me - not straightforward, as you still have to respect them and they can be a bit tricky, but they weren’t (aren’t) hard for me. I still managed to fail the summer test - too many mistakes and generally not efficient enough. Technical climbing ability is only small part of it. The summer rock assessment is already hard in lots of ways and that’s the easiest assessment out of the lot.

I didn’t try again for various reasons but I’ve used what I learned in my personal climbing. If there is one thing I could change about the scheme, it would be to have more tuition time and some formal mock assessments. However that might place too much of a burden on the assessors and it would make the scheme even (more) expensive.

I suspect the BMG will need to rethink the Scottish winter element in the years to come. The wag things are going with winter conditions, I can’t see it being part of the scheme is say 20 years’ time. Would be nice if I’m wrong on this but Scottish winter conditions anre only going in one direction. 

Fixation on the grade: could it be due to poor grade equivalence ?

French scheme: aren’t we, the French, the dreaded cousins? 😉

People could go as a mock client on their courses/assessments, just as you can on instructor assessments. But that's not the same as a personal pre assessment, i think having some crag time with guide referees is a way to prepare too. 

It's an interesting question about the entry requirements more generally.... speaking as a 47 year old punter, so bear that in mind, most of the guides I know (mainly from tom and will's generation) have been what I would call climber's climbers and have committed most of their lives to climbing, going on extended trips, doing seasons in the alps, living in/near the mountains before even thinking about being a guide.

My two p's worth is that if you want to be a guide then simply working through a numbered list of grades in different types of climbing to get to point x just won't cut it as if you are doing it solely for that purpose you wont have the breadth of general experience. If you only have the pre-requisties in most of the categories (most people will excel in one compared to others) you wont have enough breadth on your dance card to get through the separate training elements. 

The guy earlier who talked about not having done the 'types of routes they were looking for' is a good example (not criticising that approach or the individual themselves who climbs to a great all round standard) that illustrates the point I think, where the route grades/numbers you have achieved  are much less important than the approach you have taken to do it (in a holistic sense).

I would suggest a bit of psychology in asking yourself why you want to do it, really be honest about it and just go climbing for a few years across all genres before you enter the scheme if you still feel the same.

If you see the PD's as the low hanging fruit to tick off a list rather  than days out climbing to enjoy you may be starting from the wrong standpoint.

also, from your profile you are 23 so you have plenty of time, dont worry about that..... If I recall correctly most people are 30ish before they qualify and anyone younger has pretty much spent their whole adult life in cham/ the greater ranges and/or is a mega wad at most types of climbing (Will Sim springs to mind).

In a similar vein, the heavy focus on climbing CV over other things seems a bit odd to me.  Clearly climbing ability is a vital element and needs to be there, but aren't the interpersonal aspects at least as vital?  The difference between a guide clearly bored stiff, or hating their clients (or other climbers), and one enjoying the company and lifting everyone's day is blatantly clear when you see parties in the alps and elsewhere.

didn't Stevie Haston fail to qualify as a guide due to his lack of 'soft skills' with clients ? or is that an urban myth?

He failed his Scottish winter test and didn't take it well apparently. 

When you see guides working in Chamonix it's pretty clear that soft skills like that aren't a priority at all.

It’s true. I think he threw a chair at Jim Kerr for being failed. Stevie wouldn’t be the most understanding of client shortfalls, but that’s not to detract from his palmares

I think nowadays with a total lack of summer ice climbs E3 should be a min. grade (Alan McArdy once told me he thought you should be able to solo E3, but that seems harsh) and qualifying climbs TD and above grande courses. What happens when you’re at your E2 limit and a big storm blows in? I never joined qualification despite being asked, as at that time in the 80,s the management were trying to up the guides ability and sideline “chaff” as they put it, but nothing would persuade me to hang around in  the rain for weeks in Fort William. In my opinion current British guides are some of the most competent guides and climbers in the world.

Shouting "Don't you (forget about me)". 

I would be very curious to read why you didn't continue with the guiding! And I suppose I'm not alone here. Sorry if that's too personal.

There’s no exemptions for UK Mountaineering Instructors, there may have been once upon a time.