UKC

Does this e bike look legit or tampered with ?  Thinking about the lack of gears on the back wheel, but i know next to nothing about this sort of stuff.  The bike has been taken by the police, and the owner has been told that prior to them picking it up, they need to produce registration details (i.e. a registration plate number), but to my untrained eye this bike just looks like a standard e bike that does not require a registration number and insurance (like you would a motorbike).

Not possible to tell visually. To be allowed on the road without a plate and be ridden without a motorbike license, it has to have a motor that cuts out above 15.5mph and have a maximum power of 250W. The rules are at the link below. AIUI there is a big problem with people modding e-bikes to make them more powerful or buying ones that breach the limits from the factory and should actually be classed as motorbikes, then riding them without a license. That can obviously be very dangerous.

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

Motor looks a bit big for the legal 250W but hard to say for sure.

That saddle is enormous!

Doesn't look like an obvious mod, but the police have small rollers they can use to test speed. It's also obvious if you don't need to pedal for the motor to kick in. I'd be surprised if they requested a registration without having tested that it was not compliant with e-bike regs in some way.

The motor pictured (on the rear hub) looks the same size as the one on my legit Decathlon bike, and the battery is of a fairly normal size too.

It might be a DIY conversion but it doesn't otherwise look like an "e-motorbike".

Why not ask the owner? You have the photo,  you know (some of) the back story ... call me sceptical, but is there something you're not telling us here?

As others have said its basically impossible to tell whether its a legal e-bicycle or not from a photo. You could buy a legal bike and then hack the speed sensor breaking the 15.5 limit but still appearing the same for all intents and purposes.

Looking at that though I would be a tad suspicious. The saddle is mammoth and doesnt look great for actual cycling and the multiple wires going up to the handlebars would make me wonder if one is a throttle.

Nope, told everything. The owner might be keeping something from me though. Chances are, given the timescales, that the bike may have already been crushed. 

No probs. I'd wondered if you were maybe thinking of buying it but evidently not.

Edit: I was also kind of wondering how you knew the police had it and what they'd told the owner.

It belongs to a refugee client of ours who has come for help to get it back and we are trying to work out why the police took the bike in the first place as it appears to be legit (and he says it is, but we take everything with a big punch of  salt). 

Gotcha, cheers. I'd guess too that it's very likely not legit, (was it being used for food delivery by any chance?) hence request for the reg. details.

Ask them whether they could make it go without pedalling. If the answer is that pedalling wasn't necessary, then it's not a legal EAPC.

I'd say it looks modified. I can certainly see why the police would take a look, that's not a pedalling seat.

There's actually one brand - Wisper - that have gone so far as to get type approval for a fully throttled e-bike, and they're road legal even though you don't need to pedal them. They remain sub 250W and limited to 15.5mph.

This isn't one of those, though. The stubby little pedals that aren't intended to actually be used and the wide seat are giveaways. 

It is, therefore, almost certainly an unregistered, uninsured electric motorbike, and I don't think the owner will have any chance of getting it back.

As others have intimated, if it has a throttle, it's no longer classed as a normal ebike, and will need registration, insurance, and I think the rider will need a motorcycle helmet.

Visually, there's often no difference between a motor that puts out 250W/25kmh when you pedal, and one that can put out 2000W/52kmh pedalling or with a thumb throttle. The difference is internal in the electronics of the motor's controller.

Looking at those they seem the worse of both worlds. Restrictions on speed vs a normal moped but as far as I can tell moped laws apply to them and hence not permitted on cycle paths etc.

I guess no mot and I dont think a helmet but I would prefer the extra speed.

I am surprised its just the bike which was taken and not charged with riding without insurance etc etc.

You can even see the throttle on the right side of the bars, unless it’s a very odd shifter that only works one way and the gears are in the hub.

As others have said, it's hard to tell just from a picture but saddle and pedals both suggest that this isn't for 'pedalling'. It is likely throttle powered i.e illegal for public use as a bike

The shifter just looks like one of those that has two separate levers for thumb and forefinger and an indicator in a little window to me.

Hang on a sec..  here's a pic as an example of what I mean, this one is a Shimano Altus.

I agree with those saying the saddle doesn't look ideal for pedalling, but it does look quite comfy and would be far from the most ridiculous thing I've seen people pedalling.  My gran used to ride a bike with a leather saddle even bigger than that one. 

Hard to tell but the pedal just looks like an ordinary platform/rat trap type thing that's side-on to the camera to me.

I can't see a throttle mounted to the bars of that bike.

Kids often fit motorbike-like features to their pushbikes and have done for years.  It doesn't make them illegal.

If you look carefully at the right grip there is something going on. 2 cables one going to the break, and the other? Also three clamps next to the grip.

It has a derailleur, you can see the loop of gear cable going to it. The mech itself is hidden in the photo. The thing on the right side of the bars could just be a shifter. Legit ebikes and dodgy ones alike can and often do have gears. The motor controller is on the left but you can't tell anything from that alone as again, both dodgy and legit bikes have these. 

It has a derailleur, you can see the loop of gear cable going to it. The mech itself is hidden in the photo. The thing on the right side of the bars could just be a shifter. Legit ebikes and dodgy ones alike can and often do have gears. The motor controller is on the left but you can't tell anything from that alone as again, both dodgy and legit bikes have these. 

The second cable going past the brake lever is a bit odd. I cant think of any real reason for that other than throttle.

Seems to be a variant of an allegro which have a mix of cycling legal and "private land" models. 

https://www.atonbikes.co.uk/products/allegro-tdl6131

Actually that could be a signal wire to tell the controller the brake is on, so turn power off. There's also one in the link you posted from the brake lever. It's the extra clamp that does it for me.

And, we are looking at a low res photo when this has been inspected in person.

Surely there's no need for such an external signal. The motor shouldn't be 'on' if you're not pedalling for propulsion and are coasting or braking. The sensor would be in the motor itself, wouldn't it? 

The elephant in the room here, is that if you are pedalling your ebike at 15.5mph or under, and in a sensible manner, there is no way that plod would bother pulling you over.

They've got too much else to do.

It got pulled because it was obviously illegal, or dangerously driven.

It may well be legit where made/marketed, but maybe not necessarily in the UK. Your client probably believes it is legal especially if he owned it abroad.

There appears to be an EU mtb model named M10 which appears on frame if I’ve read it right and if (a big if) it is the same standard current spec and not altered, etc, etc, for UK market, that bike wouldn’t be legal in UK as current specified.

It seems to be a geared bike and pedal assistance given EU spec, so down to motor output and max speed. As others have said it is usually impossible to visually tell if it is UK legit or not, so I guess the Police have knowledge and/or tested it to determine it is does not meet the UK requirements. Given there is a clamp down on illegal e-bikes, I think it will probably be impossible for your client to get it back unless he can prove it meets UK requirements.

Or, being a tad cynical here perhaps, just possibly because one of Bottom Clinger's clients was riding it.

"There's no way you would have been pulled over for no reason" smacks ever so slightly of 'white privilege' if you see what I mean.

Round here, the Police wouldn't have batted an eyelid... We're overrun with illegal unregulated e-bikes and gangs of yoof haring around on e-trials bikes...

Round here, the Police wouldn't have batted an eyelid... We're overrun with illegal unregulated e-bikes and gangs of yoof haring around on e-trials bikes...

Nothing to add to Si dH’s first post on the technical front.  

What strikes me as odd is that the police could have sufficient evidentiary grounds to confiscate the bike without having sufficient evidence to compel them to act on the rider for riding a motorbike unfit for the road (eg indicator or brake light), without a registration, or tax, or insurance, or MOT, or a suitable motorbike helmet.  It makes me wonder if they picked it up when parked at the roadside?

If your client was stopped on the road, and the bike was confiscated, and it isn’t compliant, and the police aren’t taking any further action, well I’d probably chalk that painful loss up as the lesser of two possible woes.

It seems perfectly reasonable your client wasn’t aware of precisely what is or isn’t compliant.  I would suggest precise questions to ask to find out but I’m never sure I’m 100% clear on it myself.  If it uses the motor over 15.5 mph though that’s probably out, as is a hand throttle that powers it without cycling; I don’t think the later is absolutely impossible to make compliant but it’s unlikely.

I would expect it is a deliberately soft approach - confiscate the illegal bike, but don't waste any more of the police or court's time prosecuting someone for something so minor.

You haven’t seen grips with clamps before? They do exist.

There’s nothing concrete in the photo. However, I strongly suspect that Plod wouldn’t have seized it, if it was legit. Surely that would be a potential can of worms for them if they aren’t sure of themselves…?

It’s a funny thing because it’s both pretty minor in terms of potential risks posed and very major in terms of just how many different serious motoring offences it ticks.  If the police were to start systematically stopping and prosecuting for this it’d probably bring the courts to their knees…

Compare to the other side, just one clamp for the brake lever.

Yes I agree and I think speculation the bike has been unlawfully seized is inappropriate.

A seizure notice will have been issued with the reason, the OP needs to see that if he wants to get involved.

Well it is a feature of disc brakes for ebikes eg

https://mudandblack.co.uk/products/clarks-hd-m3000-hydraulic-disc-brake-set

Don't have an ebike but I would want this feature for safety if I did.

That seems aimed at e motorbikes (eg the 45kmph). It seems a bit redundant on a legal e-bicycle.

Did you notice the bold text in the second sentence of the specification for what appears to be an after-market product? I do have an e-bike and the sensor is in the motor. 

Yes, I'm not at all suggesting this is a reason the bike is road legal, it was just a technical observation.

I think the bike in question has a twist throttle and we can't see the throttle cable for the handlebar.

Good point. Still not a clincher though. The right hand grip looks pretty beat up, the left hand may have been even worse and replaced at some point with one without a clamp. That aside, I think we agreed the bike looks very suspicious.

Understood, it was the statement that "Well it is a feature of disc brakes for ebikes..." that I disagreed with. It's a feature of that particular after-market disk brake, nothing more.

And a feature of the ebike Mondite posted above which drew my attention to it.

Yes, which has a 1000W motor with 45kph capabilities, so not exactly a 'street-legal' e-bike.

I'm not sure why you are trying to argue about that. Mine was a  pedantic technical reply to Mondite on the purpose of the second cable, I've made it very clear on this thread I don't think the bike is legal.

Fair enough, I didn't realise I was being seen as arguing, apologies.

Hmm.  I do get that point.  But, Greater Manchester police have ramped up Operation Wolverine (clamping down on dodgy e push bikes and e motorbikes etc) over the past couple of months, and I've got loads of examples of other issues where asylum seekers and refugees do appear to be targeted more ruthlessly. It does feel a bit like Open Season for asylum seekers/refugees.

What doesn't help though is that it is obvious that lots of our service users don't understand some of the detail, but their ignorance is no excuse.  And there will be plenty of folk that know full well that their bike is dodgy but plead ignorance.

Reckon you're right.  In order for him to get his bike back, he needs certificate of insurance, a V5C form, possibly other forms of proof of ownership, and if he's not got an MOT certificate then he can only take it to an MOT centre or arrange for it to get picked up.  He has none of these, but these requirements will certainly get folk thinking if they have been caught (without prosecuting them).

https://www.gmp.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/vr/vehicle-recovery...

No worries, me over grumpy due to stuffy restless night.

Having read that interesting GMP webpage I'm pretty certain that it's bye bye bike.

Especially since the cost of getting it back is apparently £192 + £13/day.

Always has done

Isn't this as much about asylum seekers' right to work (or lack of), as it is about the illegal and dangerous bikes themselves? Seizing illegal bikes might be an easier way to disrupt the cash-in-hand economy compared to trying to pursue the gangs that employ (/take advantage of) these people.

Big tyres and saddles are not illegal.  A motor might be but I didn't mean that.

Does a playing card attached to the frame and positioned so that it makes a motorbike type noise when hit by the spokes count?

Looks nothing like a standard e-bike. I suspect it is an electric motorbike.

Think you’re right. Annoyingly, I saw one of our lads on his ‘e bike’, with his take away food bag on his back, going up a hill without pedalling. As someone upthread said, seems sensible (fair ? or lenient ?)  to simply confiscate their bike rather than push all the other charges. 

Apart from (to me anyway), the lack of gears, lots of e bikes do look like this.

HOWEVER: he came into work today, and appears more concerned that he might get ‘done’ for the other illegalities. I asked him ‘does it have gears’ and he basically said no. I expect plenty of other ‘doctored’ bikes to get confiscated. Im planning on designing some English lessons on this to help educate them etc etc.  

Other than online marketplaces wilfully selling unsafe or unfit for legal purpose devices, I wonder where they’re getting them from?  Someone is presumably assembling/selling them and quite happily taking money from your clients who I would expect are going to struggle in good faith to tell what’s legal and what’s not (just look at the range of opinions on this thread).

It’s a bind though because so much of the urban delivery gig economy uses them that it’s perhaps going to be hard for anyone to compete without going to dodgy machines.

The get out used is they are legal for use on "private land with permission".  I found several stores selling the bike above all of which must be targeting farmers and the like. Maybe its the latest trend for grouse and pheasant shooting having all the customers pop between drives on e motorbikes?

To show how common it is although not e-motorbikes just pop into your local Halfords to look at the e-scooter range. Same legal restrictions apply

https://www.halfords.com/scooters/electric-scooters/

That's what I was thinking! Reason enough to impound the thing I should say.

I think accelerators and non-pedalling should be legal with whatever the speed/power limits are for legal e-bikes. I see no good reason to discriminate against disabled people who can't pedal. I doubt it's worth the hassle of getting GPs to issue disability certificates so just make pedalling optional for all.

Pedalling does nothing to change you into a responsible, considerate and observant road user. If it did, we'd insist drivers had to pedal too.

The problems are excess (and illegal) power/speed and irresponsible behaviour rather than the details of electronic control such as pedalling fast with push button from eco to legal boost mode versus accelerator control of same power/speed.

Well yeah, but big tyres and saddles are not 'e-bike like', just in line with the modern styling of these illegal e-mopeds. I assumed you meant some kind of motor. 

I said motorbike like.  Kids have done it for years.  Crikey, the iconic Raleigh Chopper is designed to look a bit like a motorbike and that is not by accident.

"It’s a bind though because so much of the urban delivery gig economy uses them that it’s perhaps going to be hard for anyone to compete without going to dodgy machines."

The answer is simple IMO. Make it so that the companies and takeaways are liable for those taking the deliveries. Stop the sharing of delivery accounts, fine the companies if their riders are breaking the law and block takeaways from the platforms if they give food to riders who are obviously riding illegal bikes.

Which would have some interesting knock ons regarding general employment status for the riders.

Since having a substitution clause is one of the key factors in being able to claim someone is a contractor vs employee.

You are just demonstrating you know nothing about the subject as per what you said in your OP.  Go check out the main bike manufacturers and share a link to a stock e-bike looking like that.

It's everywhere but I did see a photo of a huge haul of illegal ebikes by our local police coupled with prosecution for illegal delivery work. Its possible your client was pulled for this? Or was he just taking a leisure cycle and randomly pulled over? 

The issue is that the delivery riders are paid so little per delivery that they need to cover a ridiculous number of miles to scrape together a living. That means they need a moped (basically). In addition, they are treated as "self-employed" so the companies employing them can shirk responsibility for ensuring that their workers are safe (for themselves and others) and legal. The legal loophole needs closing, so that the employees are properly looked after instead of being exploited as they currently are.

There could really do with being more legal AM class vehicles (<28mph top speed*) for this sort of purpose.  Electric cars have taken off, but electric small motorcycles and scooters (the sit on type, not e-scooters) do have potentially quite a lot of value in the urban transport sphere yet barely exist at all, probably because these illegal knock-offs exist with hardly any enforcement.

Of course these require insurance, helmet etc, but delivery people managed that before when most deliveries were done on 50cc scooters ten years or so ago.

* As an update from a maximum engine size of 50cc I guess which meant only ICE mopeds could fit this class.  Didn't know it had been updated but glad it has.  A1 probably still needs an update as it refers to engine size rather than purely power output.

There are plenty of them but I suspect they just arent noticed beyond a vague thought "no annoying 50cc buzzing".

A random top ten list showing a mix of traditional scooter brands and new ones.

https://www.lexhaminsurance.co.uk/blog/top-10-electric-mopeds/

My comment on liability was angling towards the idea that it would force the employers to give the riders better conditions. 

One of the reasons the market is flooded with desperate people who can't legally work in other situations is because the conditions are terrible so nobody with other options does it. 

I honestly think the whole thing of door to door delivery is ridiculous. Getting stupid things delivered, any time of day in 20 minutes. Surely we don't need this.

I can't see an issue with it to be honest.  But like with couriers we really need to be paying the going rate, not doing it on the cheap so it's impossible to earn the minimum wage legally doing it.

I've long thought a parcel delivery should cost around £10 minimum and a food delivery (as you can only do a few at once) probably not a dissimilar sum.  Maybe it'd be less popular at those prices, though.

TBH if it had existed when I was a student I'd have done some on my bicycle - being paid to get exercise would have been great.