UKC

Hi everyone, 

Does anybody take collagen supplements for climbing fitness ?

I'm wondering if it's worth a try while I'm climbing more often . 

any opinions welcome 

AP

When I had bad elbow pain (golfers) I took a scoop of collagen in my protein shake after training plus I also took a vitamin C tablet too. 
That was more to try and cure the pain but it didn’t really solve it. Helped keep it at an acceptable level but didn’t cure it. 
A forced rest in lockdown cured it. 
I know take a collagen scoop to help with the ligaments and tendons in my fingers. I feel sore the day after climbing. I guess age has caught up with me a bit so I’m doing everything I can to prevent Injury. I would say it works but it’s minimal. Not a wonder drug. 

I did full 6 months with the Collagen + Vit C protocol, did it work? I'm not sure. I stopped taking it and I didn't get injured again. Process Physio did a review of the paper the science was based on and seem to be not worth the money. I seem to remember the issue was on the synthesis process, collagen needs to be synthesised from protein, then can be used in the synovial fluid used by your tendons, but the body can't synthesise collagen from collagen, or something along those lines. I think the study all this was based on was a lab experiment using bits of ACL ligament in a petri dish if I recall correctly. Anyways, it won't harm you and if you are trying everything (like I did when I was injured) it might be worth a try. Bulkpowders was the cheapest and with the right amount of Vit C

As Ramon says the science looks sketchy - unless you're Eric Hörst and making money out of promoting it - so I'd say no point in spending time and money on it.

But unless you're vegetarian there's no harm in keeping the skin on your fish and chicken - tastes better than supplements and if there is something in it you'll get the benefit.

Spend your money on a better diet with food you enjoy eating.

I seem to remember that Dave MacLeod highlighted this before Eric Horst did.

He did, based on the same v dodgy paper. 

The level of scientific (not anacdotal) evidence for their effectivness does not seem commensurate with the profits made by their sale. (wink wink)

Thanks for the replies everyone .

I shall pass on the opportunity to bother with supplementation .

AP 

This may be a supplement where having a bad diet actually helps. I am thinking burgers, sauages and cheap mince. Ear oles, eye oles and arse oles stuff. Loads of collagen in that 

That's my strategy - lots of amorphous connective tissue in a scotch egg. Not sure what No More Scotch Eggs has against them - as a lapsed vegetarian married to a vegetarian they are unobtrusive and reasonably delicious as long as you stay away from Tesco's Finest gristly horrors...

There’s lots of endurance athlete coaches who recommend it. It’s a difficult one; just because it lacks research doesnt mean it’s not beneficial. I took it to help a high hamstring tendon issue; it seemed to help but I couldn’t say whether it was just placebo.

I've updated my thinking a little recently, but not much.

It may well have some application in tendinopathy rehab for some people. But if your diet is sound this is likely not you.

There is no research ( i am aware of ) regarding its use as an injury reduction intervention - despite what Eric Horst strongly suggests.

It has very few side effects, but to recommend it to just try it and see if it helps doesn't sit that well with me now due to the cost of 'premium' collagen products that are no better than taking gelatin powder and ribena. If you've got the money and you understand the protocol go for it.

What hasn't been tested yet is whether it's the protocol plus vitamin C and not the collagen at all that is having an effect. All human studies so far have been on fasted subjects, so we don't know what happens when we just eat a good diet.  I use the protocol a lot with tendinopathies, not the collagen.

If it's Baar's work (which it likely is as he is involved in pretty much all the collagen research) it is not dodgy research. It's high quality research from a very open and respected scientist. 

It just doesn't say what marketing people say it does.....

I recommend the Marks and Sparks Scottish eggs that you have to cook. I have 'em for breakfast on occasion. 

Sorry yes poorly worded in my behalf. I was very surprised to read the paper (taking collagen and skipping with sugar as a control I think) and seeing what proposals in terms of supplementation were being made from it. Here’s the paper for those interested https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5183725/

think there was also another one I read around soaking tendons in collagen or something? 

If this is typical of his work then it is not high quality research.

Just reading a paper from Tim Gabbett about the responses of different tissues to mechanical loading. 

"For example, the collagen synthesis in the patellar tendon doubles within 24 h of exercise-related loading"

from a 2005 paper. No collagen supplementation needed to make that synthesis happen, it's the mechanical loading that does that and if you have the amino acids available in your body they'll get sucked up and used. A diet with complete proteins should provide this.

Go on, i'll bite. What's your critique of it? I'm not after an internet argument, i'm genuinely interested. I've reviewed it elsewhere and it'll be interesting to see if we see the same factors as strengths or limitations.

This was my main point when this was discussed on the other channel previously; I couldn’t see that there was any advantage of eating actual collagen compared to getting the relevant amount of complete protein (and therefore all the amino acids you need) at an appropriate timing. There didn’t seem to be any research comparing just eating complete protein vs collagen supplementation.

Apologies as I don’t have time to go into detail but the main issue is the study design (carbohydrate vs protein feeding). Feeding prepares the body for anabolism so it is little surprise we see changes in collagen turnover when feeding protein (pro/hypro can be endogenous too). The cell culture studies add nothing given how many aspects of postprandial blood can affect cell growth.

The author’s conclusion might have been ‘feeding  protein may alter both synthesis and degradation of collagen’. There is nothing in this study to justify using the language they have used ‘improved’ and ‘beneficial role’.

I’ve spent the last 15 years growing mainly ACL cells in a lab and this sort of poorly designed research really annoys me.

Ooh we could chat for a while! I never cease to be amazed at what/who the internet can seemingly randomly put you in touch with. Thanks for replying. Very interesting and a different aspect to what I’d considered. 

My interpretation (physio level biology and the ability to critique a study) was similar. There is nothing provided by the research (I’ve seen) that says we need to supplement collagen. Not for injury treatment and certainly not for injury reduction.

Yet it was (supposedly) the most searched supplement of 2020. 

But I think you have another level of understanding of this subject. 

I do know that Keith Baar does not believe his work supports many of the claims made by manufacturers and says so publicly. He seems to be methodically trying to work his way through something that has so many confounding factors it may actually be impossible to tease it out. He does not appear to be on a ‘sell collagen’ trajectory. 

An individual study set up to investigate one specific aspect often doesn’t even answer that question, but just leads to further research requirements. Again I’m sure you know that. I’m more speaking to any interested parties reading this. 

But your criticism of his choice of words regarding improved and beneficial is very interesting to me. Mainly because that is what the advertisers use! 
 

Baar wants to do that research as far as I know. I think it is actually mentioned in that paper as a recommendation. I’ve read a fair few Baar papers so I may be getting muddled. 

Collagen is useless for protein synthesis for muscles. It seems quite likely that complete protein may contain all the amino acids for collagen and muscle protein synthesis. 

The research has still to be done to show we are short of the required amino acids in our diet anyway I believe. Even though we eat less gristly bits nowadays. 

More than happy to chat matrix biology more! 
 

My old physiology Professor said collagen supplementation was giving a bricklayer more bricks and my old MB prof said it was like feeding bald men hair. However looking at the effects of chondroitin on the microbiome and undenatured type 2 collagen on T cell activity makes me open to unknown effects of macromolecules.

I did see an interesting paper on type 2 undenatured collagen and arthritic knees. I chatted with a nutritionist about what that actually was and it made some sense to me at the time. 

It seems we don’t understand very much once you get beyond one thing interacting with one other thing. Goodness knows how we start to understand the gut microbe. 

I love the feeding bald men hair analogy. I am going to use that.