UKC

What is better about loose chalk?

There must be a reason, though I can't think of one, because many wads insist on using it at the wall despite the numerous signs that it is not allowed. Clearly they know that this is a rule worth breaking to unlock the door to climbing brilliance!

As long as I know there is a good reason I wont mind having chalk dropped all over me, in my eyes, and on my rope when I'm next down there.

I did ask a loose chalk user about this but was shrugged off - maybe I just have to find out for myself by spending my every evening dogging up 7C's with my shirt off. Staff don't seem to want to tell the regulars that chalk balls are the more sociable option either.

Its a small but sizable minority - is this the case at other walls? Should I have a word with staff? Am I being petty? But most of all are there advantages to loose chalk?

In reply to Shonkhor:


I'd say it's logical to assume it's a fact, that getting chalk easily and quicky and effectively is more important the harder the climbing becomes and hence smaller the holds are?

It's also pretty logical to assume it's a fact that harder climbers should follow the rules of the wall like anyone else.

Make a stand and tell the wall staff if it concerns you enough!

Often the staff are just young people who would be far too frightened to approach a 'high profile' topless badass dude who's giving it Monica Sellas grunts up a 7c and taking multiple arching wingers and say..

"excuse me your honour, but you're not supposed to use loose chalk here"

In reply to Shonkhor:

Whilst I wouldn't claim to be in the same league as the people to which you refer, I've always found that loose chalk or a mix of that and a chalk ball is far better than a chalk ball alone. I found this out whilst climbing at fairly lowly grades (even lower than those I climb now), and assumed that since chalk balls were clearly inferior that they only existed to keep down loose chalk dust, not to actually be that good on their own for chalking up.

I also only own one chalk bag, and I can't imagine that many other people have a special wall chalkbag either...

Mind you, clouds of it drifting everywhere is either a massive exaggeration or serious chalking!

In reply to Shonkhor:

Why would it bother you? I've always thought it an odd rule, that at best saves a bit of vacuuming if any is spilled. Chalk balls have finer chalk dust in them that hangs in the air longer and is more easily breathed in and so more of a health hazard if anything.

Loose chalk feels less slippy and is a bit faster to chalk up with.

In reply to Shonkhor:


Any chance of a hint as to which wall or in what area of the UK?

The scene you describe is very familiar - some of these guys have truly remarkable physiques. They are truly remarkable because they are only visible in a mirror!

In reply to Alan_2468:

The other thing that gets me going is when they expect to be able to keep "their route" by leaving their rope and bags strewn around the base of it whilst they wander off for 10 or 15min to take their rest break. This keeps all the other routes on that line out of action also.

In reply to Castor:

I think the point that chalk balls having finer dust is a good one. Anyone know anything about the critical size for particles to get stuck in lungs? (I seem to remember too small comes out, too big don't go down, has to be just right - asbestos size - I'm guessing no chalk is the right size or it might be banned outright). I find loose chalk unpleasant primarily when I'm belaying adjacent to someone using it - becasue it is bigger it falls right down. At its worst it is like standing in light snow, getting in your hair, eyes, and on your rope bag. The flurry is almost continuous on steep overhanging routes as chalk bags wobble about.

I did not know that it was faster to chalk up with loose chalk - I never find it takes long anyway. Are "relatively good for the grade rests" still so poor at higher grades that taking a couple of seconds to grip a chalk ball is too hard?

I've climbed at a few walls around the country and abroad and found that it is rarely a problem, but when it is it is quite annoying. I guess if I'm bothered in the future I'll be a nark and bring it up with staff.

In reply to Alan_2468:

They are truly remarkable to you... probably because you don't have one

In reply to Alan_2468:

I don't really want to discuss my terrible inferiority complex. Mainly I enjoy watching and learning from climbers better than me (esp when they're showing of such marvellous physiques!).

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Yes, I probably don't, so I know better than to get my top off at the wall!

In reply to Alan_2468:

At which point, I politely and humbly pull their rope!

In reply to Alan_2468:

Try talking to them .. I'm sure they wouldn't mind you climbing either next to their rope or have their rope pulled if you need it out of the way.

In reply to Shonkhor: no your right if the rules of a wall state chalk balls only then everyone should abide by it.i personally wouldnt climb at a wall with this rule as i hate chalk balls and find they contain lesser quality chalk and are way harder to use especially if your route climbing.i have a big boulder bucket a quarter full of loose chalk which i never spill and dont use excessively so theres not really any problems and the size of the bucket means i can rub my hands inside rather than in the air

In reply to Shonkhor:

It is possible to chalk up efficiently with it - personally I find chalk balls virtually useless. I admit that I always ignore those ridiculous anti loose chalk rules; if threatened with expusion I reluctantly buy a chalk ball and accidentally make a big hole in it.

As for leaving a rope up, I would always offer to pull it down if anyone looked like they might want that line. If I had wandered off, then it would certainly be fair game for them to pull it anyway - I think civil communication is the key here.

In reply to Shonkhor: I work in a climbing wall, and have frequented many. Chalk is a bitch, but not to hoover. Swore eyes, black and crusted nostrils, heavy chest and excessively dry skin are all side effects. I favour a refillable chalk ball and indeed some loose in the bottom also.

In reply to Shonkhor:

If they're like me, it's because the damn chalk ball split after about 5 minutes of use!

In reply to LastBoyScout:

Surely not! I always find them surprisingly difficult to open so that I can get at the chalk.

In reply to Shonkhor:

Yes.

Nothing significant but then I'm not an 'wad' so maybe it doesn't work the same on my skin. I suspect you though are a 'troll'.

jk

In reply to Shonkhor:
Loose chalk is thicker and protects your skin better (especially useful on roughly gritstone bouldering). Loose chalk can require a lot of faff to remove the chalk.
James

In reply to James Oswald:

You have got to be yanking my chain here!

In reply to Fraser: Difficult to chalk-up the back of your hands for hand-jamming with a chalk ball!

I climbed a few times with a wad. He said the last thing you want to do when you're pumped is squeeze a chalk ball. It's not rocket science when you think about it.

In reply to wayno265:

Show me a wad who chalks his hands (with loose or whatever) to protect them and I'll eat my chalk-ball.

In reply to jkarran:

Hi, no not a troll, well depending on what definition you use I suppose. I've learn't what I wanted to from this thread and will reconsider my petty greivance the next time it raises its ugly head.

Seems getting lots of chalk on your fingers quick is pretty critical to some people. I like the solution of a pretty much empty chalk ball to keep chalk from getting out and some loose chalk in the bottom of the bag for a good dose quick. A regular ball seems to dry my hands alright at the moment though. Maybe I'm just not working hard enough to get a proper sweat on.

A friend of mine unpicks the stitching of his old balls and refills them. Perhaps this is a good way of getting top quality chalk on your paws when there are rules disallowing loose chalk. He's just being tight though.

In reply to AJM:


I do, and boots ...

Found I prefer loose chalk for fingerboard work and the added bonus that it is cheaper and no-one can tell me off for using it is nice!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Nope, this one went pop all on it's own.

I used to use a re-fillable chalk ball, but I've lost the bag it's in

In reply to Shonkhor:


Fair enough if you're genuinely interested, it's just your question is phrased in a fairly provocative way.


That's my solution too, several scraps of old ball and bits of rag in a little bit of block chalk. Gives me something to rub my tips/palms on and breaking up the little blocks between my finger tips clears the sweat out of my skin better than simply wiping them on a ball. The other issue is actually fitting you fingers in around a full chalkball but I guess that's my distinctly old fashioned bag to blame!

All that said, it's a minor thing, I'd happily borrow a chalk bag for a hard route.


I'm not very good with rules, especially silly ones.
jk

In reply to Shonkhor:

Chalk use is actually pretty personal, as the amount you need (or indeed whether you need it at all) depends entirely on how much you sweat through your hands.

A chalk ball may work fine for you in most situations but you can't really extrapolate that to other people.

In reply to Shonkhor:
I think the point that chalk balls having finer dust is a good one. Anyone know anything about the critical size for particles to get stuck in lungs? (I seem to remember too small comes out, too big don't go down, has to be just right - asbestos size - I'm guessing no chalk is the right size or it might be banned outright).

Inhaled particles are a bit of a funny one as you need to think about shape as well as size. Asbestos particles are needle like so lodge in the lining of the lungs causing physical damage although they are fairly chemically inert.

Generally as a rule of thumb when looking at clouds of dust you'll swallow anything over 100 microns and cough up anything between 100 and 5 microns. Stuff smaller than 5 microns will typically get into the deeper recesses of the lung and won't get back out again. This is further complicated by the fact that particles have a physical size and an effective aerodynamic size which can be vastly different depending on their physical properties.

I don't have any particular data to support this but a gut feeling is that chalk particles are normally going to be sufficiently coarse that they'll come back out again although balled chalk seems substancially finer than loose.

Mike

In reply to Shonkhor:

I use loose chalk.

I'd consider using a chalk ball indoors (even though they're terrible) but the prospect of emptying my loose chalk and inserting a ball every time I go to the wall sounds like far too much effort (i'm to cheap to buy a second chalk bag).

My hands explode into sweat instantly and stay that way so I have to use a layer of liquid chalk as a base and regularly apply extra layers of loose chalk. From what people I climb with have said, it seems that different people's hands sweat differently (obviously). Chalk balls might work well for people who don't sweat much and so on..

In reply to Shonkhor:
>> A friend of mine unpicks the stitching of his old balls and refills them. Perhaps this is a good way of getting top quality chalk on your paws when there are rules disallowing loose chalk.

got a refilable chalk sock full of "super chalk" chalk was slippery and got chucked, but when filled with crumbled block chalk is satisfingly crunchy

In reply to Shonkhor:

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned their tips. The reason I always have a layer of loose chalk in with a ball is to easily chalk up my sweaty, little points of crimpy contact and nothing does this better than poking the bottom of a loose chalk bag! Particularly with full chalk balls you reach in grope it a bit then bring your hand out and there's chalk on the obvious points of contact but often lacking from inner joints even the main curve of my palm, extra loose chalk tends to billow around and fill these gaps, and give a bit of texture back.

Whilst priimarily I'm a boulderer and rarely dab mid problem, I can also agree with the speed thing, reach squeeze roll around and out is a lot more of a faff than dip shake out.

What's interesting at 'The Climbing Academy' where I work is a new sample product of 'one use chalk' it's almost like a gluey soap powder in feel and you rub your hands in a tiny amount of it and it stops the sweating and benefits traction for nearly a whole session. It's weird because I'm so used to dabbing for chalk nervously when eyeing up a problem that the idea of no longer having to use chalk is a bit of a worry that said Sports Climbing members of staff there are really enamoured by it.

In reply to Shonkhor:

>


I've never had a problem with a chalk ball, and never needed loose chalk, even when climbing 7c+ at the wall (although I would often keep my shirt on too - I'm just not cool enough, clearly). Maybe I don't sweat as much as others? I do know that some top coaches recommend loose chalk, ergo loose chalk is cool. I have used loose chalk, and to be honest, I find that it over plasters my hands, adding a layer that I don't want. I am a fan of liquid chalk though - definitely helps on sport routes and longer boulder problems.

In reply to Lil_Pete:


ooh more info please. Any idea what it is or where to find out?

In reply to i.munro:

Eco grip, ask your local shop for it

In reply to zoobizooretta:

thanks

In reply to i.munro:

Can't remember exactly but Ecogrip sounds right! Is it Holdz or Core who are producing it?

Incidently, for the record I don't like the stuff, prefer chalk (of the loose, non-balled variety!)

In reply to Shonkhor:

I am someone who sweats a lot, especially through my hands. This leads me to use loose super chalk in vast quantities (and it has never affected my hands even though I rarely wash it off at the end of a session and I never use any moisturising products).

I also find that keeping my top on will cause me to fall off a route because I'm too sweaty, not too pumped. Outdoors I've figured the difference between t-shirt or topless depends on whether I need my down jacket at the crag. Indoors I don't find I can ever climb at my limit because it's always too warm. So if anyone has a problem with somebody climbing topless; sort your life out and stop blaming others for your insecurities.

And squeezing chalk balls to get what little chalk you can from them (when totally boxed and sweating buckets on some bold route) is the last thing you want to be doing!

In reply to Shonkhor: I'm a fan of avoiding causing offence wherever possible, so normally just stick to the guidelines at whatever wall I'm using. However I must admit that though I have noticed the young wads at my local wall using loose chalk it doesn't really bother me.

Al

In reply to Shonkhor:
i'm not good enough to notice the difference, but it annoys me getting involuntarily showered with chalk.

In reply to Shonkhor: I'm not into breaking the rules, if you want to use loose chalk why not just try and find a wall that allows it. I usually go bouldering indoors and they don't have a problem with it where I climb (the owners tend to use chalk buckets when they climb).

I personally use one of those refillable socks (metolius one). The chalk seems to go on better and feels a little looser (larger particles?) than a proper ball. If I'm in the mood (or sharing) I use a bucket of loose chalk (but only where I'm allowed).

In reply to Shonkhor: It might be worth doing some research on the DAV website if you can speak German - At their wall in Munich airvents automatically open every 1/2 hour or so to remove the dust from the atmosphere, and I've seen an article in their magazine about it (but couldn't understand it). Given the amount of chalk that comes out my nose after a session at the wall significant amounts must collect in the lungs - whether it causes harm or not is another question though.
Personally I'm a great fan of liquid chalk (mega-grip was better though). I find 'sweaty fingers' is actually more psychological than anything else - if I feel the palm of my hands or gaps between fingers getting sweaty then I chalk up, even if my tips are bone dry. Using liquid chalk stops this sweaty feeling so I chalk less.

In reply to Toerag:
Given the amount of chalk that comes out my nose after a session at the wall significant amounts must collect in the lungs - whether it causes harm or not is another question though.

I think it is important to keep things in context, just because something collects in your nose doesn't mean it ends up in the lungs; I can get my finger up my nose but I couldn't inhale it

The nose is a fairly well designed dust trap, but if you are worried about inhaling it then I'd stick to loose chalk (see my earlier post).

In reply to Shonkhor: I dont allow the use of it at my wall, we are in a large public facility that has to be kept clean, and for one i cant abide the mess & having my nose blocked with it.