UKC

Hi. 

What word is better for a lead climber to tell the belayer to pay out slack?

• Slack or
• Clipping
• Any other words 

What strategies do people use to work out when to pay out/give slack? Anybody route read before they belay?

Sav

Note: the option should be slack and not slick.

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

At a wall a belayer should be able to anticipate the need for slack by observing the distance to the next clip and judging the leader's position w.r.t. the clip.

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

+1 for Andv’s reply. Otherwise, the belayer should always take care to keep a tight rope when the leader is about to attempt a dynamic move; this keeps the potential fall distance to a minimum.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Yep. The only word I need to listen for as a belayer (indoors) is 'take'. Slack is just given when it's needed

In reply to Jimbo C: No. whether a leader chooses to clip when a bolt is at waist level or maximum reach will usually depend on when and where they are in a comfortable position to clip, which may not be obvious to a belayer, particularly indoors where bolts are closer together and often the risk more serious of a ground fall due to mis clipping a first or second bolt. Good discipline for sport climbing is to only use two calls, “slack” or “take” anything else may be open to misinterpretation, so why wouldn’t you use the same indoors? 

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

At a wall, you should be able to see when they reach for the rope and give slack in time, no need for calls. 

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

If the lead climber decides to stop for something to eat they should alert their belayer by calling either “snack” or “break”. 

In reply to McHeath:

Ok guys, I bow to the dislikes - the bit about the tight rope was an ill- considered joke. So Sav - do not do this, that’ll probably be a situation where the leader could ask for a bit of slack. Sorry @all!

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Very occasionally "slack" if you want to do a high clip that the belayer might not be expecting.

More than 90% of the time nothing: a competent & attentive belayer can see when you're clipping and anticipate how much rope you need, especially if it's somebody you climb with regularly.

"Clipping" seems to be an American thing.

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Eranu and Uvavu usually suffice for us. 

In reply to kevin stephens:

The leader could say slack if they needed to, but they barely ever need to because I can see and feel exactly what they're doing, and they know that I can 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I think this is where I struggle a bit 

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Shooting Stars fan?

In reply to Thugitty Jugitty:

'Snack' is too close to 'slack' for me - I prefer 'snacking on'. If conditions are favourable for communication, you can even elaborate by tagging what you're snacking on to the end.

In reply to midgen:

I am an attentive belayer but I don't much experience off lead belaying.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

You've neglected to mention the dove calls while gesturing to alert the belayer of your intention to start climbing 

In reply to AlanLittle:

Hi Alan

When I lead myself, sometimes I do go for a high clip.

I actually got clipping from The MM where HR pretends to be a novice climber and it is his first time at the wall.

S

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Haven't watched that one, I got bored with Magnus' gimmick videos. Was it by any chance an American wall?

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

You should maybe start with someone who can introduce you bit by bit to the practical side of belaying a lead climber and who’s also willing to give you experience with holding a few practice falls. Or do a course?

In reply to McHeath:

I did an Advanced Lead Belaying coaching clinic bit it was tailored tonight participants needs and I did a very stupid mistake. I have caught toprope falls and lead belayed at the two roped walls in Sheffield. Great advice anyway.

In reply to AlanLittle:

I am not sure if it was an American Wall.

In reply to McHeath:

Interesting....

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Don't say "clipping" unless you are, in fact, clipping.

"Slack", or "rope please", or just fall off are my three favourites.  Coming in fourth place is yarding on the rope so hard I get what I need.  Sometimes, in the right position, you can loop it over your knee and stand up to get full body weight behind it.

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

It comes with experience. We've all been there, and all still misjudge it from time to time 

In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

I pay out too much slack but I think I am improving.

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Yes, you are right: slick, slack, clip and clap, or any other words will suffice. All actions should be slick, except slack, which should be held tightly. Clipping will get you a clap, and clapping a clip; but, any other words result in the need to pay out, although not until the end of your go, in which case, do not collect £200.

I hope that lends clarity.

In reply to C Witter:

Yes it does apart from 'clapping a clip' and the reference to monopoly. 

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Good! I'm relieved. I'm not sure everyone is as capable as you, Sav, in terms of their reading ability.

Sarcastic clapping will earn you a playful clip round the ear, or possibly a slap from your climbing partner.

If you use other words to demand slack, particularly if they are filthy, irritable and impatient, you will need to pay out, preferably in the form of cake, or you may find your climbing partners unwilling to climb again.

Hope that's clearer than mud now.

In reply to C Witter:

Thank you. 

Now I get it.

Are the words or the climbing partners filthy, irritable and impatient? 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Hi Andy.

Happy New Year 

This holds true for CWI but for CWDI the trainee needs to demonstrate communication.

Sav

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Happy new year to you too.

I never realised there was any requirement for a specific call, and tbh, I'm a bit surprised. Walls can be noisy places, what happens if you hear "slack" a moment before your leader slips? 

I suppose you could arrange a signal - maybe arm out backwards and down? But honestly, just pay attention, it's not that hard.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

There isn't a specified set of calls. The CWDI syllabus point states:
7.1.4. Effective communication between leader and belayer

In reply to jezb1:

Happy New Year 

When I lead belayed, I told the climber to say slack when he needed slack but in a video I heard clipping.

This is a what I remember reading in the CWDI candidate handbook. 

Sav

P.S. 

I did buy the La Sportiva Solution Comps at the end.

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

To all those people saying “you can see indoors anyway” come and climb on the big overhang at my local place - the belayer is essentially in a cave and can’t see anything past the first roof. You can’t hear anything amongst the noise of other climbers either so it’s all on feel. Proper sea cliff training. 

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Slack (for slack) and SLLLAAAACKKK you ******!: for when your belayer has [gone to sleep | is rolling a fag | answering a phone | searching for a werthers original in the bottom of their bag | ogling the hench guy on the next line | fumbling the ropes | jammed the belay plate etc].

Take (for tight):  Assuming your belayer is alert then they should make a judgement as to whether or not this should be interpreted literally (as in really tight) or just as "be ready to catch".  No one wants to be yanked off the wall by an over-enthusiastic belayer.

Watch (me): Be prepared for anything - usually a low margin move that might require slack or take in a hurry.

Never, ever:  "take in the slack" - because it is possible that only one of the words will be heard and it might be the wrong one. While you can usually get away with this indoors it is a very bad habit especially for outdoors where a bit of wind and a climber out of sight might mean you do exactly the wrong thing.

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

I usually call for slack when I go for a clip, and realise the belayer hasn't let enough out.

The belayer has probably realised at this point so calling for slack is probably irrelevant, but best to be sure they are alerted to something not being right.

In reply to SilentDai:

A lot of walls do have lead walls with overhangs and or roofs and I remember ROF51 in Newton Aycliffe being mainly overhangs and roofs. Good walk sounds interesting.

S

In reply to camstoppa:

I like this. Too right. The belayer is being in attentive. 

I have never yanked a climbing partner if the wall.

Good one. Are you talking about something like a dyno? I once top-roped belayed a guy on a F6b route and he asked me to pay out slack because the moves were very balancy.

Sav

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

No such thing as a silly question, so you don't get a thumbs down from me. 

I tend to lead climb indoors for endurance training and make a real effort to climb up to clips whenever possible; I rarely clip above head height. As such, my belayers generally have a pretty easy job and if I do decide to clip really early (by that I mean when the next quickdraw is at full stretch) it is not unreasonable for them not to necessarily expect this. In that situation, I do often call out "clipping" as I reach down, along with perhaps a tiny pause before pulling rope up.

Conversely, one of my old climbing partners repeatedly makes massive reaches to clip, so anyone who belays him regularly is always ready to yard out loads of slack. 

However, what I find more of an issue, especially indoors, is when I decide to clip two quickdraws from the same position. In that case, it is unlikely that my belayer will actually expect this. As such, I probably call down "clipping again" more often than I call "clipping".

FWIW, I think, especially when indoors, "clipping" is a more descriptive call than other alternatives.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

^This. I'll always try and remember to let my belayer know in this situation, and particularly if I decide to ski the nearer draw all together

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

What a strange post. "Slack" and "Take in" have served me well for nearly sixty years and I still teach them. One is a harsh, distinctive word and the other has two syllables. 

In reply to McHeath:

I did a typo: tonight should have been towards.

In reply to SilentDai:

I did a typo: Food walk sounds interesting should have been your wall sounds interesting.

In reply to camstoppa:

I did a typo: if the wall should be off the wall.

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

"Clipping" is bad practice, it has 2 syllables and sounds too similar to "take in", leaving an error trap. Also don't buy a black rope, or agree a name for it which doesn't sound like "slack".

Other languages may have other problems.

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Through many years of practice I've discovered that when the leader reaches down with their hand towards to the rope, this usually indicates they want slack to clip. To enhance this I look at the leader, not other climbers, routes, the cafe menu, the floor etc.. 

In reply to AlanLittle:

I did a typo: HR should have been he.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Thank you. You hold the MCI?!

I think a lot of people lead climb indoors for endurance training. I tend to clip just above my head but apparently it is best to clip from that waist. I don't think I have ever clipped from full stretch. The last sentence is useful to read.

​​​​​> However, what I find more of an issue, especially indoors, is when I decide to clip two quickdraws from the same position. In that case, it is unlikely that my belayer will actually expect this. As such, I probably call down "clipping again" more often than I call "clipping".

Is "ready to clip" another good one?

Sav

In reply to ExiledScot:

Is it better to look at the leader more or your rope more?

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Leader, you should be able to pay out or take in without constantly looking at your hands. 

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

Other than a short length uselessly looped around Bear Grills’ torso, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a black rope.

Thought I had once but when I remarked on it the owner admitted that it was actually a bright colour, just really, really dirty.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Yes - the Edelweiss 'Black Whip' would have been before your time!

In reply to Iamgregp:

Some manufacturers have been commissioned in the past to do special production runs of black harnesses, ropes, karabiners and slings for the military. They don't usually do them for public sale. The black ropes are usually only pre stretched / low stretch, not dynamic, but as said above one or two manufacturers have dabbled.

In reply to Iamgregp:

I had one once, black with yellow flecks and it's partner the inverse. This is how I learned that black and slack sound the same.

I still see similar pairs out and about.

In reply to ExiledScot:

I remember reading about the black military gear in another read here a while back - I think it was to do with equipment companies and ethics.

In reply to ExiledScot:

You should be able to feel if your roof is tight enough?!

In reply to SilentDai:

At the White Spider where I lead climb, there are roof problems near the comp wall and even artificial stalactite features to lead climb.

In reply to ExiledScot:

Typo:  It should have been: You should be able to feel if your rope is tight enough?!

In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Just look at your leader 95% of the time, a half second glance down will let you see if you've a loop of slack there, you shouldn't need to look continously at your hands to belay, it's not safe, you're there for the leader, so watch them. You can't belay someone leading with a tight rope, every time they move up they'd be yanked off balance. You watch them (at the risk of repeating myself) paying out or taking in accordingly. If a leader is searching for the move, then retreating, you pay out, you take in, you pay out... that's your job. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Totally. Thank you.