UKC

Apparently more people die on Ben Nevis than on Mt Everest. What are they dying from? Heart attacks? Just curious.

In reply to Death Star Constructor:

I suppose when people go to Everest they (practically) all go prepared, whereas you get a lot of people who climb Ben Nevis who don't realise that it is actually dangerous, especially if they've been to Snowdon, which in comparison is quite tame.

In reply to Death Star Constructor:

last time i did the ben it was bad visibility,very cold and lots of snow on the top.the day before a guy had walked through the corniche's and fallen down the north face!!
most people do this or fall down five finger gully when coming down in bad weather!all it takes is a compas and some bearings and your ok but this is too much for some people!
lots more people go up the ben every year than everest and also most people who attempt everest dont go in shorts with no waterproofs ect!!


rich

In reply to Death Star Constructor:
When I saw the nick of some of them on Saturday I'm not surprised. Thin cagouls and jeans when the top had freezing driving rain. Glad we just used the tourist route for descent, far too depressing otherwise. BTW what a fckin' mess on the top. If you want some Stella to celebrate your ascent, take the bloody cans down with you...

In reply to Death Star Constructor:
More people die in Cheltenham than on Ben Nevis . What from ?

In reply to Death Star Constructor:

The Law of Chance. It's a matter of numbers against degree of risk. If the same number of people who attempt Ben Nevis every year attemped Everest I supect you would see substantial swing towards a higher death rate on the latter.

In reply to Removed User:
Did you get Ledge Route done then? Enjoy it?

In reply to Removed UserDeath Star Constructor:
Most of them die from the sudden stop at the bottom, often after wandering into Five Finger Gully by mistake in poor visibility, although there's quite a big drop on the North side of the hill too. A few die from suffocation (in avalanches) or from exposure. There may be a few heart attacks too I suppose - a lot of people walk up that tourist path.
It's a wee bit more popular than Everest.

In reply to Death Star Constructor: I suspect having studied mountain accidents in Scotland at one point and having read report on Everest in climbing mags and websites for over 15 years that this isn't true.

In reply to TobyA: It may be more people HAVE died, not DO die,

The number of deaths on everest must be higher all the time as more people now attempt it.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:



As a percentage of people trying to climb it, possibly.

In comparison to the number of people who attempt Ben Nevis - via whatever route - the number attempting Everest will be very, very small... (eg a normal weekend on Ben Nevis - let alone a Bank Holiday weekend - vs a whole year on Everest)

The "stat" in the OP needs explaining. It's documented (to a certain degree) how many people pay a "summit" fee for Everest every year. Whereas the number of people who attempt to get up Ben Nevis will not be accurately accounted for...

In reply to Dominion: Yes but I mean that each year more people now die on everest than on Ben Nevis, but 30 years ago this probably wasn't the case, so in terms of overall deaths Ben Nevis ranks higher, in terms of deaths/year Everest probably ranks higher.

Of course though, as you say, deaths/people on the mountain would be higher for everest, and many many more people climb the Ben.

In reply to Dominion: im not sure about the OP's claim however ive climbed on the ben 6 times in the last 2 winters and the MRT were out everytime.

its a busy place and its a serious summit with very changable weather. not a great mix really.

In reply to Death Star Constructor: A guy was going up in a pair of sandals a few years ago.

In reply to Marts:

Dear Marts

I returned safely by the way.

Norrie

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

I'd be interested in seeing the stats that the OP was basing his original post on.

Without actual numbers of attempts, plus numbers of deaths - it's a pointless statistic.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I'm suprised you didn't get arrested for wearing nothing but a pair of sandals. Wasn't it a bit cold?

In reply to Death Star Constructor:

They're dying because of the recent rise in stupidity. Anyone with a ski-pole and a pair of sunglasses now seems to think they are capable of handling the highest and most unpredictable mountain in the UK, irrespective of fitness, navigation skills, common sense, clothing or general ability to handle the terrain.

In reply to Death Star Constructor: I recall a February week years ago, when 6 died when I was camping at the CIC. A party fell on Zero and took another party with them including a mate of mine. Others died in Castle Gully I think. Plus there was also 2 fatalities on Five Finger Gully. This was on top of other rescues that week. The RAF rescue chopper was out every day or so it seemed. As they say it's a steep learning curve on the Ben in winter.

In reply to Dominion:

Dear Dominion

There was no fashion police about. Cold, what do you think I am, a southern softie.

Norrie

In reply to Steve Parker:

however the death rate is also increasing becasue the hills are more acsesable and the sport is less extreme.

ask you self this. would you climb as hard as you do in the weather that you have climbed in if the gear was the same as in the 70's

i wouldnt. even falling in that stuff hurts.
in a way advances in tecnology is also killing more people who otherwise would not have been there

In reply to Rob Reglinski:

Agreed, but I also think the rise in popularity of outdoor stuff generally is giving people a false confidence. I have encountered a lot of bloody silly hillwalkers (rarely climbers) getting into all sorts of stupid situations in popular areas like the Lakes and around the Ben. A lot of people are just about winging it with little skill or knowledge or respect, many of whom become casualties.

In reply to Rob Reglinski:

Dear Rob

I winter climbed on the Ben in the 70's and there was nothing wrong with what I wore or climbed with at the time. The only thing that would have made me climb harder would be modern axes.

Modern gear is saving climber, not killing them.

Norrie

In reply to Iain Forrest:

What a cracking wee route up. Managed to get some good views of the cliffs before the clag came in. Brother in law was most impressed. The Scrambles In Lochaber route description was spot on, which was just as well as we could see hee haw. Will redo it some sunny summer day or possibly the winter. If I do it in the summer I'll come back down Carn Mhor Dearg; that path is way too depressing.

In reply to Removed User:
Nice one. It's pleasant but very easy in winter - I think overgraded at the II it gets in the current guide. Great situations, and pretty exposed though!
Aye, the tourist path is best avoided when you have the choice...

In reply to Iain Forrest:
Amazing how relaxed you are when you can't see anything though!! Peering over the edge of the Great Buttress and all I could see was grey "aye I think there's a bit of a drop here...."

Given my winter experience it would still be a good day out for me. I'm going to take the boy up there when he is old enough.

In reply to Removed User:
Next winter then?

In reply to Removed User: Nice winter route, stunning situation, too good to do it again in the clag if you can avoid it, but we still used a rope, pretty exposed, though easy route. Also probably big steps cut as it is so popular.

In reply to Iain Forrest:
Crampons and a baby walker then??? That would take us back to the thread title, me in the jail and the front cover of the Daily Record.

Iain R deffo going back on a good day. It was my bro in laws annual visit and the only opportunity to get up a hill and leave the kids with the wimmin folk. Shit happens. Last year we had Curved Ridge to ourselves on a sunny day, August Bank holiday Saturday. Given though he is normally as hard core as the Vale Of Evesham he enjoyed his day, clag or not!!

I've lost the link to the source of my info.

I wasn't aware that Ben Nevis is so popular in winter. Apart from the freak accidents, I guess insufficient clothing, no map/compass etc explains a lot.

In reply to Death Star Constructor:

Dear Death

Ben Nevis is one of the premier winter climbing venues in the world.

Norrie

PS What planet are you from?

In reply to Norrie Muir:

If he's constructing a Death Star, he might be from that planet where they have the Ewoks.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Boredom?

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I think the death star is referred to as a planetoid rather than a planet.

In reply to Removed User:


Don't be silly.

You'd just need a haul-sack, Yosemite-style.

In reply to Chris Fryer:


That's no moon...........it's a Space Station.

Obi wan Kenobi circa 1977

In reply to Norrie Muir: Preferrably in a galaxy far far away, but in this world I'm an expat, originally Africa, now Norway where I mainly do winter summitting.

I've only been to Ben Nevis in October and was under the impression that the inexperienced mountaineers stick to the summer season, and only the somewhat experienced climbers (who usually avoid anything but freak accidents) attempt it during winter.

In reply to SimonW:

Dear Simon

Death Star should do Spacewalk on the Ben in winter.

Norrie

In reply to DougG:
You mentioned me and style in the same post. Never correct!!

On thread I did worry about the wee soul in the flared jeans on Saturday; I've never seen anybody so wet and cold since I was at Motherwell during the Centenary season.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I think he got’s too much on with constructing a new space station to worry about ice climbing on the Ben……………………

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Hey Norrie, do you agree that they should put those navigation poles back on the summit with handrail wires between them to clip into so you can't get lost?

In reply to Steve Parker:

I’d much prefer a gondola from the summit direct to an ale house in Fort Bill, would save me trashing my knees walking down that bloody path………………..

In reply to Steve Parker:

Dear Steve

I have yet to be lost on the Ben, may be because I never take a map or compass in the first place. There should be no navigation aides on the hills, other than a cairn/trig point on the summit.

Norrie

In reply to SimonW: aye, a gondola direct to the lochaber bar in caol, sounds perfect, think ill buy a season ticket

In reply to Steve Parker: I reckon navigation hungarians would be more apt as theres hunners of them working in the fort at the moment

In reply to Erik B: Could you guarantee those pesky hungarians would stand in the right places though and not scamper about? They might have to be bolted down.

In reply to tony:

Likewise. Never seen that view before!

In reply to Steve Parker:


sorry if its a bit " bleached" Steve


Its about 20 mins from the summit

I heard once that the you have a 1 in 8 chance of dying on Everest...?

In reply to Death Star Constructor:

It would be nice if this were the case. Sadly a lot of people who have no experience of winter conditions but are into the old rock climbing have a habit of turning up at the Ben with some shiny axes and doing silly things like gearing up at the bottom of their climb half way up the face and then falling down the approach slope/cliff with a crampon stuck in their harness, or getting to the top and then being unable to find their way off in a blizzard. If it were only down to freak accidents happening to capable and experienced mountaineers then I'm sure the stats would be a lot lower.

In reply to Carpe Diem:
What a beautiful photo. I remember that view and the day that we were up there, actually passed a woman who was walking in high heels!..

In reply to Postmanpat:

boredom

In reply to mzzzv:

Thanks.

It was a good day.It was clouded over as we went up ( via anoch mor and CMD arete) as we got to the top about 7PM the clouds all lifted..... so worth the slog up.....have a look here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/author.html?id=9447&nstart=24

In reply to Death Star Constructor: very interesting responses on this thread...a lot of critical comment about people's equipment, competence etc. Now when I innocently raised a similar point earlier this year about people on Helvellyn in winter, the mountain rescue gurus said in no uncertain terms that it was fine by them and that if people wanted to do their own thing...well, that was fine by them...the rest of us seem to want to exercise jusgment and commonsense about the inadequately prepared...

In reply to potted shrimp:

There was a lot of shite posted on that thread by people who were arguing and without using much common sense, for the sake of it.

Mind you that seems to the case on a lot of threads on UKC………

In reply to potted shrimp:

The other point being made last time was that it's very hard to judge competence from equipment - but that's what many people were apparently doing.

Personally, I don't doubt Norrie could get himself safely up and down the Ben in decent summer conditions in sandals if he wanted to. But I'm sure if the UKClimbing Police spotted him doing it, there'd be uproar.........

Equally, whilst there are doubtless many accidents on the Ben due to poor clothing & equipment, I'd be surprised if that accounted for many of the fatalities.

In reply to Carolyn:

seconded - you really can't judge peoples competencies from their kit; all the gear - no idea brigade; bloke in sandals might just be taking a stretch up the Ben after several months climbing in the greater ranges; fell runners in pumps and vests etc etc.

In reply to Dux:

True, but there were people implying on that thread that people who didn't go out prepared for the conditions they were likely to encounter were not foolhardy.

The arguments usually followed the 'well I do x in so and so weather and have never died' or 'i went out once and didn't need an axe/crampons when it was an snowy and didn't die'.

In reply to Death Star Constructor: See link for a comprehensive anaylsis of what causes accidents in the Scotish hills.
http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/documents/mountain%20accidents.pd...

100+ casualties in the mountains between 1996 and 1999. Basically 40% are simple slips and most accidents happen to hillwalkers. However the 7/8% or incidents that are rock climibng and 15% that are snow/ice climbing are likely to be much more serious and lead to more than their share of fatalities.

Mark

PS I can't find any accurate figures online but I'd say 3-10 people die on the Ben each year so that's probably more than on Everest.

In reply to SimonW:


The trouble is, it's very hard to agree on what 'prepared' actually means, as to a large extent it's dependent on experience.

Going out fell running in trainers in fresh snow might not be foolhardy if you're fully aware of the conditions and are prepared to turn back/take an alternative route as necessary. Going out with the 'proper' kit, but no idea of how to use it, might be foolhardy.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Mark - I couldn't find any online figures for the Ben, either.

But isn't/wasn't there a board at the bottom of the tourist path that gave those figures? My memory was that it was around 8-10 deaths a year for the period mentioned - it's certainly easy to believe that in a particular year, there could easily be more deaths on the Ben than on Everest.

In reply to Carolyn:


Of course but going without kit you are likely to need and not turning back when you realise you are going to need it is plain slack.

Fell running with one inch of snow on wet ground is a far cry from doing the same with sheet ice and neve on the ground.

In reply to Carolyn:
Dear Carolyn

I remember being chastised by someone for wearing Wellington boots on the sodden approach to the CIC hut. I was the only person with dry feet and socks, it was nice changing into my dry double boots which I had been carrying. I will let you guess who got a route in that day.

Norrie

In reply to Carolyn:

The difference between all the novices out there and the very experienced is pretty minimal, the experienced person is more likely to be out in poor conditions/weather pushing the boundaries and may become unstuck trying to tweak the conditions, fatality's happen due to this scenario every year, avalanche, slip or fall, even guides are not infallible ( eg the 3 deaths on Aonach Mor in an avalanche), a very experienced fell runner trying to break some record died falling down an icy five finger gully in trainers.

We were all inexperienced once, i think it is more down to common sense or just bad plain bad luck, with a few exceptions.
PS i go every where in my jesus creepers!

In reply to Dru: you hit the nail on the head, conditions are critical to accidents in the hills, eg years with strong winds and heavy snow causes avalanche problems and increases fatality rates, years with freeze thaws followed by an intense cold settled period causes rock hard neve on slopes causing potentiall fatal slips for even the most experienced of hill folk (specially if it is a lean season with loads of exposed boulders) etc etc the folk dying on hills like the ben are usually as a result of avalanches or slips rather than roped falls

accidents are the sum of near misses, so no-one is immune to the danger no matter what gear and what experience they have

and as you have said the more you expose yourself to these natural risks the greater the probability of an accident

In reply to Erik B:

Dear Erik

OK for the first. However, with experience, one does not expose oneself to the same risks. Some risks can be lessened, so lowering the probability of an accident.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:
True Norrie but the reality is that some very experienced outdoor enthusiasts do become fatality's, for arguments sake the list is endless, Andy Fanshaws 2ooft fatal fall on Eagle Ridge, who would have thought it, with his experience, Paul potter a qualified guide, in that avalanche on Aonach Dubh, tragic - the avalanche hazard was high.

Yes experience lowers the probability but the more you venture out into an hostile enviroment the element of risk still remains, even a calcalated one.

In reply to Dru:

Dear Dru

Yes, things happen, even to experienced hill goers. We all have had near misses, some can't be explained, other than being real jammy.

I still say, risks can be lowered with experience and remaining focussed. Risks can only be avoided by not going onto the hill.

Norrie

In reply to Death Star Constructor:
I once wandered into Five Finger Gully with a bunch of mates, and we awere outdoor pursuits instructors! Bloody professionals! It was so easy to do, we were just wandering along, chatting and chucking snow at each other, and we realised we were in the "funnel" that drops into the head of the gully!
We were too lazy to plod all the way back up to Carn Dearg, so we decided to descend the gully. In the dark. It took us a couple of hours, and was quite exciting, but it was a good laugh.

In reply to Death Star Constructor:

If you can get hold of the latest LMRT Booklet (Lochaber Mountain Rescue Team) You will see that the majority of callouts originate from slips and resulting falls.

Reading through the list it is apparent that this happens to both the inexperienced and experienced.

Martin

In reply to garythomas:

Not so. I have no interest in climbing Everest whatsoever, therefore I've got a zero in 8 chance.