UKC

Hi guys

I'm hoping for a bit of advice.  My partner and I are new to winter 'climbing' and so wanted to tackle some easy Grade 1 & 2 routes in Scotland next weekend.  I've found a route including Dinnertime Buttress & Dorsal Arete ( https://explore.osmaps.com/route/8496930/dinnertime-buttress-and-dorsal-are... ) which incorporates the 3 sister in Glencoe and wondered if anyone has anything to say about the difficulty/technicality of these?

In terms of kit we are very limited for winter climbing.  We've both got B3 boots and Grivel G12 crampons and a walking axe each.  We've also got a 50m single rope, multiple slings, hexes and nuts, but nothing like ice screws or technical axes.

In relation to summer climbing experience, I'm not particularly experience but I can lead up to a 6B/6B+ sport.  I've not lead many trad climbs so would only really be happy to do so up to a S at the most and would probably be more comfortable at only a V Diff.  

Would the considered route be too much do you think?

If yes, then are there any alternatives (don't need to be in Glencoe but wouldn't want to travel further north than this) which you would recommend?

Thanks all

Simon

Zig Zags on Aonach Dubh, and up and over the ridges of Stob Coire nan Lochan is a good beginner route.

I've not done those routes so the comments below are more generic to winter climbing.

What's your winter nav and avalanche awareness like? There is a lot more than just the technical aspects to consider with winter climbing. If you aren't confident in your ability to navigate in a whiteout and to avoid avalanche terrain I would suggest building those skills first, either through going out with someone more experienced or on a course.

Regarding kit, while many of the easier routes would likely have been done with a single walking axe I would certainly recommend getting a pair of more technical axes. Doesn't need to be anything fancy, and in fact for grade I snow plods I would say a straight shafted axe that can be plunged vertically would be more useful than a curved axe with a molded handle.

CMD arete and Ledge route on Ben Nevis, Golden Oldie on Aonach mor, Ring of Steall is steady but very long.

Gullies are often where many of us start but they can be avalanche chutes if conditions are not right. I'm assuming you are propably aware of the SAIS avalanche forcast that can help. Learn how to test the snowpack at the bottom of a climb, plenty of vids about that.

Trad climbing is a good foundation to build the winter climbing on as it will help speed and confidence when building anchors and placing gear. Having a bit of experience in calm summer will help you operate with efficiency in the winter when the weather is battering you.

Have fun, report back.

In addition to the above advice... I would stick to grade I if you have one walking axe, and be picky about which you choose.  I'm sure someone will be along to say how back in the day much harder things were climbed with one tool, but we must remember that they were cutting edge (pun entended!) ascents at the time.  I take two tools out almost everytime I go out in winter even if I'm only climbing a grade one and am often glad I did, particularly if there is a corniced topout.

Doing both Dinnertime Buttress and Dorsal Arete is likely to take you a long time if you are new to winter climbing and not happy to solo easier sections (don't be tempted to move together roped up with no runners). Dinnertime Buttress only has one pitch of proper climbing, and is at a quite low altitude so isn't in good condition that often - it can however be a useful objective in poor weather or after heavy snowfall. Dorsal Arete is much more reliable conditions wise, but quite hard for the grade if you take the narrow fin direct (possible to avoid it on the left). Neither route is completely safe from possible avalanche danger. 

See here https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/winter_climbing/suggestions_for_winter_gr... for a list of easy winter climbs in the area. 

Fiacaill ridge might be worth considering as a first introduction as ALL the difficulties can be escaped to it's right. You can therefore make it as interesting or not as you wish without any commitment 

That combination is a good but tough choice. Instead I recommend going directly to Stob Coire Nan Lochan rather than approaching via Aonach Dubh and Dinnertime Buttress. You'll have a lot more flexibility in route choice if you go straight to SCNL as there are multiple I/II routes you can start from there, and you'll also save yourself a long walk back around to the car at the end of the day. 

Alternative options in SCNL include Boomerang, Forked Gully, NC Gully (and others), with potential to return quickly to the base via Broad Gully to take on another route, or to set up a continuation walk around some of the local peaks. 

With regards Dorsal Arete, it's a popular route as it's fairly short and can be done in any condition (probably best to avoid high winds though!). It's very easy to start with and has a short, challenging, and wildly exposed crux. The good news is that the crux is both protectable (slings) and escapable (either back down the way you came or left into Broad Gully). There's also likely to be plenty of other climbers around to show you the trick to getting up the bad step. One axe is usually fine but if it's in very ice-plastered condition then two would be advantageous. 

As always, pay attention to weather forecast, avalanche forecast, and climbing conditions information in the days beforehand. I recommend building up a list of potential objectives and selecting one closer to the time based on the latest information. 

I'm not convinced climbing with a single walking axe is a good idea. For a low grade I or under certain conditions you might only use one axe, but you'd be advised to have a second.

If you are talking about this weekend, Central Gully on Ben Lui is in good nick and ideal for a first winter route. But, it's a push with one walking axe.

We did Easy Gully on Creag Meagaidh today and that went with one axe. Even then, you'd be more secure with two axes. 

The option is to try some winter Munros. Bidean nam Bian or Beinn a'Bheithir (Ballachullish Horseshoe) or something on the Mamores. That might be sufficiently challenging with one axe.

Agree with all the responses so far. Only thing I would add is that if you have only led sport & not trad I wouldn't recommend trying anything with ropes (I'm no expert but it was only a few years ago I was at your stage so remember it well).

For one thing if its hard enough to need ropes you'll probably want the climbing axes. Find something you are comfortable soloing and practice your crampons, axe use, personal admin (gloves, leashes, layers etc), nav etc. Once you've got the faff factor with that under your thumb then add in the considerable extra faff of using ropes & protection. For me that took a few years & seconded a number of winter routes first even with years of summer trad.  Good experience of building trad anchors (nuts & hexes) required with the added complication of having to clear snow off the cracks to find them.

In terms of route choice, if its this weekend most major grade I gullies should be ok but a steeper hillwalking route could be an equally good choice (make sure the steep bits are high enough for the conditions). This website is for skiers but has good topos highlighting grade i&ii gullies https://www.steepscotland.info/coire_an_t_sneachda/ . And just to reinforce always check SAIS and even better do a course. Sorry turned into an essay!

Yes, they are low grade routes of moderate difficulty. The main question is what do you think? Can you confidently plan a day, decide what equipment is needed, and make judgement calls as you go about whether you need to change your plan? Are you confident moving in crampons? Do you think you can judge the weather and snow conditions? Can you decide the appropriate techniques for different terrain? Can you find and place gear while leading? Can you build a quick belay? Can you set up an abseil? Can you nav in poor visibility conditions?

Think through what the day will involve and decide whether you feel you are confident that you have the skills. If your partner is an equal partner in this, discuss it together and see what they think. If they are just following your lead and counting on you, then you need to feel absolutely confident in your ability to look after them, and to adjust the plan according to how things play out, otherwise you're not being fair to them.

Not saying any of that to be negative. It's just simply the case that only you and your partner can really answer the question posed in your OP. If you're not confident, find a plan that you are confident in. That's the best way to have a happy day, rather than a day where you spend a significant amout of time scared that you've bitten off far more than you can chew.

Thanks for all the responses so far, they are really appreciated.

1)  So what I've taken from this so far are that some people don't think it's a good idea to do any climbs with only a walking axe, but others think it would be fine (albeit 2 would provide more security)

2) Keep an eye on the SAIS - I will definitely be doing this.  Especially since new snow is forecase between now and when we plan to go.

3) Nav skills need to be considered, which they are.  I have the OS map covering the initial area planned (Glencoe) and a compass and am pretty confident using them.  Not saying I'm perfect, but I'd be happy enough to use a map and not my phone!

4) I have lead in trad, just not a lot, but I have also practiced placing gear quite a lot and building anchors so I'm fairly happy with this.  I've not built anchors before so have been watching some vids of doing this with a snow bollard and I think this would probably need practising soon.

The main purpose of sticking to G1 and 2 areas was so that I could practice the difference intricasies of placing gear in things like ice filled gaps, on routes which could otherwise be free soloed, rather than trying something were protection is absolutely essential.

Having spoken to a friend yesterday I do think G1 climbs only may be the best solution and maybe sack off the G2 climbs until I've just tested the water and am comfortable the differences between summer and winter aren't too great (I'm an insurance broker so am pretty risk averse by nature!)

I am still keen to try some winter rope work, but as I say, it would be where the rope is superfluous to actual need.

We are looking at doing the CMD route up Ben Nevis on the saturday now and so will need to hunt out some G1's for the sunday.

Another question, if 2 axes are preferable, are there places where you can rent axes?  I ain't got a spare £250+ for second hand axes lying around, let alone for new ones.

Thanks all, this has been a big help!

https://shop.thebmc.co.uk/product/scotlands-winter-mountains-with-one-axe/

This book would serve you and your partner well 👍 I'm sure you'll be fine whatever you end up doing. Have a great time out there 🙂

I just want to say that this is a great post and that last sentence is what I'm trying to achieve.  A great day, where I can practice skills I alread have, just in a different environment/setting and don't end up with the missus giving me the dreaded side eyes cos she's fuming I'm putting her through this. 

that's absolutely AMAZING!!!  Thank you.

I'm gonna order it now

You should seriously consider Schoolhouse Ridge (aka east-northeast ridge) at Balachullish, just along the road from Glencoe-

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/beinn_a_bheithir_-_sgorr_dhearg-25...

It's a great ridge which can be done with 1 axe. It's really a grade I/II imo. Nothing too technical about it, not overly exposed, and the continuation along the top of the ridge to the first summit is sublime (if conditions are right of course 👍).

An easy walk-in too ☺️

Re 1 axe vs 2, somthing to think about is that for gullies allthough 1 axe is perfectly fine you will inevitably have the non axe hand in the snow all the time, which is cold and and uncomfortable. I.e in the photo below from a week ago.

For this reason for gullies of any grade I always carry 2 (allthough from some grade 1's i find a walking pole and axe a good combo. Given the choice if I think I can get away with it I only carry 1 as I am a lazy sod and axes are heavy!

I once saw someone on Dorsal arete with 3 axes, a walking one and 2 technical ones! Possibly a bit excessive...

I actually left a voicenote for a couple of my climbing buddies earlier (they only do summer climbing currently) saying "are you supposed to have 1 walking axe and then 2 technical axes cos there's serial axe murders who have less axes than that!"

Confession time, I own 6! 

Totally great that you can use a map and compass, but don't underestimate how bloomin' brilliant it to know how to use a map and compass and GPS on your phone! In this article https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/chasing_the_very_bloody_epheme... I wrote: "My navigation is pretty good but confirming my pacing and bearings with the blue GPS spot and OS mapping on my phone is great and helps me operate in poor weather. Modern belay jackets and bothy bags, along with phones, also make it easier to both look after ourselves and look out for others in the hills." 

Basically knowing how to use a map and compass but also being able to check your assumptions to a high degree of accuracy on your phone is a huge confidence booster, for me it takes a lot of the intimidation that I used to feel when young in the winter hills, away. I don't think it makes me take more risks, but I do think it helps me get more done. 

The answer to this problem is N+1 axes (where N is the current number of ice axes you own) and getting yourself a brilliant Petzl Gully hammer as tool no.2 If N + 1 might cause family strife ("how many bloody ice axes do you need? You've only got two hands!"), go for N + 0 - still buy the Petzl Gully, but flog one of your older ones on Facebook - that way you keep everyone else in the family happy.

But seriously, the Gully is so good - weighs almost nothing, works perfectly well up to at least sort of II/III ground, and means you don't get a really cold (in my case) left hand from stabbing it in the snow or grabbing snowy handholds when trying to use just one axe. 

Pah! That's nowt lad.

Ha! As soon as I posted I thought there's no way this thread would end without me getting some serious ice axe envy.

I'm glad if it's helpful Yeh... I took my partner rock climbing a lot, but it took me quite a while to realise a) climbing with someone depending on you throws up new challenges, compared to climbing with a peer, b) initially, I wasn't as experienced as I thought I was, c) that I needed to rethink my approach and lower my daydreaming expectations in order to ensure a really happy day.

Hope you have fun, whatever you do!